GB not out of the woods, yet!

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LZ Floyd

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Well, we finished the CopperSafe and Maracyn 2 treatments (for GB's velvet and fin rot disorders) last Saturday afternoon.  From Sunday afternoon until Tuesday morning, GB underwent four 50% water changes, and on Tuesday morning a new charcoal filter was put in.  For each of these water changes, I used a siphon vacuum and went after the gravel pretty aggressively.  There was very little debris kicked up the last two changes.

Unfortunately, this morning I see that the edges of his fins are again going white.  When this happened before, it was thought that it might be new growth.  However, on that occasion and within a day of my reporting the white on his fins, GB shed the whole lot of it and we found it to be fin rot.  I think it's too early from his FR treatment for him to be showing new growth; conversely, I believe it's a reappearance of fin rot.

I'm considering a Maracyn + Maracyn 2 treatment regimen to see if that helps.  Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike
 

nmwierman1977

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I think it would be a good idea to try both, but remember on the box it say's not to do more then 2 treatments in a 2 week period or something to that affect. Good luck and I really hope that GB is able to clear it up soon. If it doesn't work you may have to use something stronger like Furan2 instead. Natalie
 
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LZ Floyd

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Thanks for the well-wishes, Natalie.  I've heard fin rot can be a challenge to get rid of, so, we were on the lookout for it's recurrence.  I'm getting the impression that the causes of fin rot are many.  I guess Pop-eye is like that.  Maybe the Maracyn/Maracyn 2 treatment will catch the cause that the Maracyn 2 alone couldn't.

Anyway, we're now proud owners of a Kritter Keeper to use as a hospital tank.  And, for the Kritter Keeper we have a heater and an air pump-operated filter, which I need to get the charcoal out of.

I sense it would be best to move GB to the H tank to get him away from any bacterial source in the Hex 5.  I am thinking, too, that, if we use Amquel+ as the dechlorinator, it's ability to also neutralize ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates might help us avoid water changes during his treatment.  That was kind of a problem with the previous Maracyn 2 treatment.

For today's supplies, I ended up at PetCo, who did not have any Furan 2.  If the Maracyn/Maracyn 2 combo doesn't work, we'll have to try something else like the Furan 2 as it does say not to use more than two treatments of Maracyn 2 back-to-back.

This poor fish has either been in cold water or medicated his whole life.  I hope he can pull out of this, too.  He is in good spirits, though, swimming around and eating like a Betta.  So, that's good.

Mike
 

heatmisr

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GB is really having a tough time, but he seems happy, none the same. I suspect it is because he knows his Daddy really loves him. I know GB will be ok because you are really going all out for him. It's amazing how these fish grow on you. I have spent so much on LB so far, I got a Pet Perks card from PetSmart.

Nicole
 

nmwierman1977

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I don't think petsmart has Furan2 either. I was just looking on their website and I didn't see it. Your best bet would be ordering it from Drs.foster and smith. I would order it now so you can have it in a few days just incase the treatment of maracyn/maracyn2 doesn't work again. You'll have it on hand then. Natalie
 
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LZ Floyd

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Yes, heatmisr, they do grow on you.  And, as far as expenditure, they do know how to get into your pocket.

Thanks for the PetSmart-Furan 2 info, Natalie.  I found the page for it on drsfostersmith.com and bookmarked it.  I planned to order some things from them in a day or two and will get it from them, then.

I guess I'd better get started on GB's H tank.

Mike
 

AesSedai

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You know that GB is soo much in my thoughts Mike. Talk about the school of hard knocks for the lil guy, and for you and your family <shakes head>.

Ditto totally to what heatmisr said..GB knows his daddy loves him.

So you have a tank to keep GB in while you medicate him ~and~ while you get to cycle his hex (his actual tank's a hex 5?, can't remember) That must help, being able to get it cycled finally.
 
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LZ Floyd

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The Kritter Keeper is cracked.  I thought I gave it a pretty good look at PetCo, but I missed the crack in the bottom corner.  <rant> You have to watch every little thing with these lps, don't you? <rant off>

Mike
 

nmwierman1977

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Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Well you should beable to return it as long as you have the receipt and they should give you another one w/o any extra cost. Natalie
 
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LZ Floyd

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The Kritter Keeper has been replaced and is now filled with 80-degree water treated with Amquel+.  It's up to the heater now to get it up to operating temp.  I don't want to transition GB until I know the heater's working and the temp is at 84-degrees and holding there.  So, it looks like treatment may have to wait until tomorrow morning.

This poor little guy wasn't dealt a good set of cards.  Keep your fingers crossed, though, cause I've not given up yet.

Mike
 

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The first Kritter Keeper I got was cracked too. I didn't think to check it while I was in the store, but did think of it as soon as I got to the car, so was able to take it right back in. I'm glad they didn't give you a hard time about replacing it. Poor little GB, (and you), ;D have gone through so much. It will be such a relief when he is well.

CherryRose
 

chickadee

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Yes the Furan-2 is the next logical step unless you want to go with the big guns at this point and really knock it out good. Trouble is with that if he ever needs it again, he will have been sensitized to it and it will never work that well again. If you want to use it though it is the Triple Sulfa and it can be used over again if he needs a repeat treatment. The E. M. tablets are the same way but do not work on quite as many things. (erythromycin) Both are strong antibiotics that work on gram positive and gram negative bacterial infections.

I just feel so sorry for the little guy and am just really upset that he is going through this. We will get him better and I fully support the decision to move him to a hospital tank. He will be more easily treated there.

Try to test the tank he is in for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates though...I got to thinking that he has been in there for over 4 weeks, hasn't he? He could have cycled the tank for you already. If that is the case, you will want to add some ammonia or leave him in there so you do not lose the cycle unless you are still going to recycle with Bio-spira.

Please keep us informed.

I am so glad that he is eating and acting like a betta should. It means he doesn't feel sick and that makes it better somehow.

Rose
 
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LZ Floyd

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Glad to see you back, Rose.  I was getting worried about you.

As for GB, what I see with his fin edges depends on what light I see them in.  Today, for the first time in a few days, we had full sunlight.  In full sunlight, his fin edges looked washed out, white.  But looking at them tonight, with indoor lighting assisted by a lighted magnifying glass, the edges appeared to have the same blue as his overall color.

While I want to get a jump on treating him for his fin rot, I don't want to treat him for something that he doesn't any longer have, either.

He's not going anywhere tonight.  His h-tank is set up, but I want to see the heater doing what it's supposed to do before putting him into it.  Though I have Maracyn, Maracyn 2, Trisulpha and a few other meds, I have no E.M. tabs, nor Furan 2.  Those will need to be ordered as their availability around here is nil.

I'll run full tests on the Hex 5 tomorrow.  It did receive four 50% water changes in two days.  But, it might be cycled.  Wouldn't that be something?

I'll order the Furan 2 and try to get it here in some reasonable time.  Hopefully we won't need it.

Thanks Rose (btw, good to have you back  ).

Mike
 

heatmisr

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Oh no, Mike.  Don't tell me you gave GB the "big eye ball" again....lol.

Nicole
 

chickadee

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Thanks, I missed being here.  I may be gone off and on for a little while and probably every Wednesday morning for a while.  My mother is getting older and needs help more and it just takes time.  

The fins being whitish in the sunlight are not unusual as they are thinned out yet from the first go round with the infection and will not be back to normal for weeks.  If you cannot see definite shortening going on, he may be over the bacterial infection and has just not started to regenerate yet.  BUT if he is still losing fin tissue, he needs to be treated.

LOL .... the big eyeball indeed...

Rose

Just a quick question, just in case..the active ingredients in Furan-2 are Nitrofurazone 60 mg and Furazolidone 25 mg. and Methylene Blue 2 mg.  Check the Maracyn 2 and compare ingredients to be sure that they are not comparable.  I myself have never used the Maracyn 2 but heard that the two were not identical but I just want to be sure before I send you out to order more.
 
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LZ Floyd

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I can see how more direct sunlight will give GB's already thinned out fin edges a different appearance than what general indoor lighting can offer.  It's alarming, though, to see those white fin edges when white fin edges were the first clue that he had the disorder.  I wish there was a way of measuring fin length.

I think it's great you can spend time with your mother and help her out.  Now that we know that, we don't have to worry about you when you're absent.

Mike
 

AesSedai

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Mike, I just thought of something...a way to see GB really well

I've used a flashlight to look at Zen close up ever since I've had him. With that and magnifier glasses from the drug store, I can see him perfectly.

It's actually easy to avoid shining it in his eyes (I use a small one that I can hold in my mouth and have both hands free if I need to...like when taking a picture). As long as I avoid shining it into his eyes, he's totally ok with it and doesn't swim away but flutters close to me. If I want to see his head and face, I shine the light down from the top. To make it more fun for Zen I shine the light on my face too, lol. He gets a kick out of that
 

chickadee

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They will actually come to the light sometimes if the room is dim. They love to be the center of attention and that sometimes works to our advantage.

How is GB doing? Still eating well and swimming comfortably, no sitting and pouting or hovering in one place for extended times?

Have you had a chance to do the parameter testing yet?

I know I am a nag.

Rose
 
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LZ Floyd

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Hi Folks!

It's been a little busy here today with life and all that stuff.  Thanks for coming to check on me.

Gainsborough is behaving the same today.  He's eating like the Orca from Jaws and is swimming around like he owns the place.  He's not acting under-the-weather and I don't see him hiding.  His overall appearance is good and his tail is about the same.  In bright daylight, his fin edges are all washed out, but if looked at under indoor lighting conditions, there appears to be a good hint of blue, his overall color.  (Sound like morning report, Rose?)

Thanks for the lighting advice, AesSedai.  I do have a magnifying glass I picked up at Radio Shack (yes, I do get into things electrical, in fact I have a wire box like all people who like to hook electronic things together), which has a light in it.  It's been a handy device over the years and is what I've been using to scope out GB's tail.  I wish I would have used it to look at his tail when the fin rot set in initially.  That way I'd have some idea what his fin rot looked like before to make a comparison. 

As I see GB so often throughout the day, it's too hard to tell if his washed out fin edges are advancing.   So, I've handed over the challenge of making that determination to my wife as she doesn't see him throughout the day.  If the white edges are advancing or his tail and fins are deteriorating, she'd likely be the best judge of it.

GB's not in the Kritter Keeper, he's still in the Hex 5.  The 25-watt Visi-Stealth heater I ordered from drsfostersmith is being used in the Kritter Keeper and it's not quite adjusted the temp yet.  In fact, it's kind of having a hard time getting the temp up to 84 degrees.  I've assumed there's heat loss through the top, which is vented as much as a screen door.  So I have that covered to trap some heat. 

The Hex 5 is not cycled: Ammonia = .25, Nitrites = 0, and Nitrates = 0

This is really a waiting game.  I don't want to throw GB into the Kritter Keeper and medicate him if his tail is the way it should be after having fin rot.  Exposing him to further meds may cause more problems if it's not needed, IMO.  But I also am the type who likes to get more aggressive with treatments when the first round of meds doesn't do the job.  And that means any little deviation from original baseline appearance triggers me to want to initiate treatment.  So, while I'm looking for the need to medicate him, I've held off on treatment until I'm sure.

When things settle down a bit today, I'll do some research to see if there are any attendant symptoms to fin rot that I'm not already looking for.  But I don't think there are.  He's not acting sick, and I can't prove that he's looking it.

Thanks for checking on me, folks.  I'm going to give GB a water change to get him out of the ammonia and tackle a few chores.  Hopefully, I can get back to "things that are Betta" here shortly.

Mike


ETA:

FYI, Rose, the active ingredient in the Maracyn 2 is 10 mg Minocycline per tab.  The closest thing I have to the Furan 2 is the Jungle Lab Fungus Clear Tank Buddies, which contains nitrofurazone, furazolidone, and potassium dichromate (though the amounts are unspecified).  As reference, you said the Furan 2 has Nitrofurazone 60 mg and Furazolidone 25 mg. and Methylene Blue 2 mg.
 

chickadee

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LOL...life does have a way of interfering with "things betta" once in a while doesn't it? I go through days where I almost get upset when I have to deal with other things (not Mom) but it is true that the little guys and girls do take a bit of time to spend with them just keeping up with their needs and what we want to do with them. They are not the "pinch of food in the morning" type of fish at all... and I find that they are definitely the ones who set the tone at my house. They have been grumpy today all day and making my life miserable...and having a good time doing it. All right I am definitely allowing them to control the show...

Rose
 
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