Gainsborough might be sick

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LZ Floyd

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Hey all,

Gainsborough was moved into his Hex 5 on Monday. We held off on cycling the tank to determine his state of health. If he showed signs of any problems (including any related to his fin-biting episode) where meds might be needed, along with regular water changes, using Bio-Spira would be a waste as the meds would likely kill off the bacteria and water changes need to be avoided for seven days when the Bio-spira cycling method is used.

Since GB has been in the 5, he's checked out his new environment, but doesn't seem to be overly content. He's having trouble negotiating the flow of water produced by the filter and sometimes appears unsteady. If the filter is off (or he finds a current-free space in the tank), he seems generally normal, but the filter has only been off for the water changes and to feed him (the current coming across the "feeding zone" makes it hard for him to spot, chase and eat the food dropped into his tank). In checking him out today under some pretty good lighting conditions, it seemed that his gill edges may be inflamed and, if looked at from a certain angle, a horizontal bar across his gill plate at eye level seemed prominent. In some threads it's been noted that inflamed gills could be a bacterial infection and a horizontal bar may indicate stress. It's also been noted that a horizontal bar may be a part of his markings. The latter could be true in GB's case, I've not looked at him under these kinds of light conditions before to know that he had no such bar before. I also noted that, shortly after putting him into the new tank, the top of his head began to appear a rust color. This is a change from the blue color I've known him to be. This might be due to an illness or it could be the result of him being in 5 to 7 degree warmer water.

The photos show his gill edges. Unfortunately, he wouldn't present himself in a way to get a shot of the rust color on his head, nor the bar across his gill plate.

As always, any suggestions would be helpful and I thank you.

Mike
 

chickadee

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Well we need to rule out Velvet since he has been living unheated...so here is what you do.  Turn off all the lights in the room and tank and when it is dark, shine a flashlight on him.  Now I am going to warn you, he is going to HATE it.  You will get a reaction so you have to check FAST.  He will look like he has "gold dust" sprinkled on him.  It is better to come on him from above than from the side where you will get him in the eye, but he is still going to move because he is going to think it is "sleepy" time and "what are you doing up there you ##***!!???!!"  Well you do get the idea... .  If he does not have any "gold dust" then we are very lucky because treating for Velvet is a real pain.  We will do it though if we have to.  It just involves wrapping the tank to keep the light out.  (but we will not do it unless he actually shows signs.)

He COULD be stressed.  After all, he has just moved into a new world and even though it is a wonderful thing to happen it is still a BIG thing. Even good things are stress producing in our lives and we understand why change happens. He hasn't been around that long yet. He will learn.

I am going to ask you to do something purely as a preventitive measure because he has been living in an unheated tank, but only if you have an airpump and an airstone running. I want you to start to raise the temperature of the tank to a temperature of 83 degrees. (a degree every 3 or 4 hours or so) We will be leaving it there for a while and so that is why an airstone will be very important. If he is not getting some better or acting well in a few days then we are going to 85 degrees. He may have a parasite of some kind and that is the easiest and best way and least stressful way of treating a fish for this type of thing to begin with. No salt, no medications - the less is more principle. He definitely will have to have air though because it is a deep tank and the hotter the water the less oxygen it can hold. (he should always have an airstone with a tall tank like that anyway)

Now for the second part of the treatment. Have you started him on peas yet? If not, I would begin his education in the eating of a "frozen pea treat" at least 2 times or 3 a week. With the introduction of heat and the change in his diet he could be constipated. It may be a good idea to give him the pea to help get his system cleaned out and give him a brand new start. I know Marty and Blaze and Alex just had theirs today as they were acting peaked.

If you need instructions on the pea treatment just let us know.

Rose
 
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LZ Floyd

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Thanks Rose!

I was able to get the room dark and, to aid in the process, I surrounded the tank with a layer of newspapers.  Surprisingly, he didn't spook when I lit him up with a flashlight.  I'm not sure I'd call what I saw a sprinkling of gold dust.  He actually appeared to be coppery on the upper part of his body.

He's active enough to want to eat, but I would not call him energetic.  He's not flaring or anything like that and he rarely raises his fins.  I guess you might call them clamped.

I googled fish, velvet and what was returned seemed to match his condition. 

I've shut down his aquarium light and the room has been darkened.  One thing in his favor wrt treatment is our being in the northeast where the sun sets before 4:30 in the afternoon.  Covering the tank should not be an issue, either.

On one of the sites returned with the search, aquarium salt was mentioned.  But we'll hold off on anything until we get word here.
 

chickadee

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Please NO salt.  I do not think it does much good and for some reason everyone seems to want to add salt to everything.  I have seen it do a lot of harm so please unless he has open sores, no salt.  THEN only in a small seperate bath not the whole tank.

I wrote a bit more on the earlier post in case you did not note it.

Rose
 
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LZ Floyd

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I have no idea how I missed the second part of your message, Rose.  I must be blind.

The airstone has been off except for a few minutes today.  GB is overwhelmed by the current it produces in combination with the filter flow.  Though I don't yet have parts to regulate the flow, even pinching off the hose to limit it still provides so much current GB can't make his way about the tank.  My concern about running the air, then, has been twofold: 1) If he gets caught up in the wrong place, he'll get bashed into something and 2) as it seems all he's doing is fighting the current in the tank, it causes me to think that he'll become so worn out he won't have the ability to fight off any illness that comes to visit him.

Consequently, I held off on the airstone ops hoping he'd adjust to the water flow of the filter.  That, or find places in the tank where the current is minimal and go there to rest.  After that, I hoped to introduce him to the air.  Looks like we'll have to get more ambitious with that part of it.

His tank temp is around 82 degrees and has been at that level since GB went into the new tank. Setting it at 83 should not be a problem, once the airstone issue is resolved.

As far as the peas, he got his start with them when he first showed up ill.  He's had a pea treat once a week since (including Monday, just before his move to the Hex 5).

I think I've covered everything in your message.  Now I need to go check my eyes.   :-[
 

chickadee

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LOLOLOLOL No your eyes are fine...my computer cut out on me and I had to finish the rest of the message a few minutes after the first part got posted. I got a message saying it was going to end the program and I quick posted what I had written and then signed back on and finished....Sorry about that. I will have to just start a new one next time....hmm.

Rose


Instead of pinching off the airline try tying a knot in it. That way you can loosen and tighten the knot and control the airflow a bit easier that way. (an old trick I learned from the drip method of acclimation)

Rose
 
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LZ Floyd

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LOL!  Good one!  When you directed me back to your message and I saw the second part my first thought was that the second part wasn't there on my first reading.  Then I started second-guessing myself and began to believe I was losing whatever is left of my alleged mind.  Try to explain this to someone.

Anyway.  I moved the air stone higher up in the tank to help cut down the turbulence (it has a suction cup attachment allowing placement anywhere that is smooth).  And, I've cut down the airflow by clamping a pair of Vice-Grips onto the airhose.  What makes that nice is that the adjustment screw on the Vice-Grips can be turned on way or the other to adjust the flow of air.

The tank temp has been turned up a tad; though it can't yet be verified, it should bring the tank to 83 degrees.

And, GB got a little pea treat.  That worked better than I thought it would, this being the first pea treatment in his new tank with the floor being gravel.  He watched me put the pea in the water with two of my fingers, then followed it down and grabbed it up after I released it.

Now, about light.  Should I wrap the tank with newspaper?
 

chickadee

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I am not that sure that he has Velvet. I would not want to do that without more of an idea than just a little copper color. He would be "dusted" pretty well all over with Velvet. No, I do not think we want to darken the tank just yet. Let's just do the temperature raise and give him a few more days. Remember he is really not in a cycled tank yet so his stress level is still above that of a fish in a cycled tank. He may be okay with just an increase of temperature. Just make sure to try to keep the tank temp about the same when you change the water. I know this is being very hard on you all but he has had a hard start and may end up with a cool water condition to deal with but it IS doable....

I am here if you need me, or someone will be. I will probably check back in later tonight just in case, but I think there isn't more that you can do for tonight but see that he eats something and put him to bed. He sounds like he doesn't know he is not feeling well if he went after the pea and THAT is always a good sign.

He is not desperately sick anyway. Good night, GB. You be a good boy for your daddy and quit making him worry, OK?

Rose
 
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LZ Floyd

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Thanks, Rose!

The air pump ran all night and several of the hard surfaces had bubbles on them this morning.  With increasing daylight, there appeared to be lots of dust-speck-sized bubbles blowing around in the tank.  Whether the tank is sufficiently aerated, though, I wouldn't know.

The temp in the tank was at or near 85 degrees this morning, so, I turned the thermostat down the very least I could feel the controller move to slowly get it back towards 82.

GB's general behavior is unchanged.  He is having trouble negotiating the turbulence in the tank and on a few occasions has moved to the bottom (may be resting, may be hiding).  But, for the most part, when not caught in a current and rolling with the flow of water, he's been either up in the tank and slowly moving around or floating almost vertically.  Though he doesn't appear entirely lethargic, his energy level is below baseline.  Whether his fins could be called clamped is also a hard one to call.   He certainly is not displaying any of the motions I would think to call a Betta dance or him showing off; another parameter below baseline.

On the good side, he doesn't appear to be trying to relieve himself of itchiness by rubbing against objects in the tank.  If he's itchy, he's not showing it.  And, he ate fine this morning, eager for food as always.

His appearance is sickly.  He does seem to be coated with a coppery powder, which appears more evident between his scales.  If he were a car, I'd say he had a lot of surface rust.  But, if someone more knowledgeable (and that wouldn't take much) came around and said he looks to be covered with gold dust, I wouldn't argue.  His color is fading beneath his gills and chin; and, his gills are definitely inflamed (dark edges and swollen).

On Tuesday and Wednesday morning, the tank was given 40% water changes.  Pre-change water parameters this morning were zero across the board (though one might argue that the ammonia was above 0 ppm, it was nowhere near 0.25).  This morning he'll get a water change and we'll continue in a holding pattern with any more treatment until otherwise advised.

Thanks all.

Mike
 

chickadee

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Okay it is time to bring out the BIG guns...this little fish has had enough. He needs a Copper medication and to be darkened and the temperature has absolutely got to remain at 82.5 or above for at least 14 and preferrably 21 days. Here is what the Fish Disease Books that I am checking are telling me and the medication most recommended for Velvet treatment.. also probably the most available.

This should be available at most all fish stores of any size and is the safest of all Copper meds that I am aware of. It will not hurt him. The only drawback is: If you ever plan on having Cories or Otos or any other scaleless fish or snails in the tank and most real plants, the Copper meds will burn them or even kill them. (burn the fish or kill the plants) Fish with scales will not be so harmed at all so do not worry. Velvet is a vicious disease and takes some strong measures.

Now for the rest of the treatment:

This is a parasite that is encouraged to grow by the contact with light of any kind. That is why the aquarium has to be protected from light from any source during the treatment. He is not going to like it but it is for his own good. BUT first I have a solution to the wild current problem that one of the members came up with and it is a cheap but absolutely ingenious device that a lot of our members use. It deflects the flow and he will still have areas that will be hard to swim in but they will be off to the side and leave him most of the top to play in. There is also feeding rings to keep his food in one place so he does not have to chase his food all over.

let the ring part sit on the surface and put the food inside and he can come up from under and he will learn soon that when the ring comes down it is NUMMY time.

Now I do hope you can make your little man happier and healthier. PLEASE keep me informed and let me know how he is doing. We will get through this.

Tell GB that we are all (Marty, Alex, Blaze, and me of course) pulling for him and we know he can do it.

Rose
 

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Hi Mike

I have ((GB)) in my thoughts.  You and Rose are all over this too.  

I couldn't help thinking something as I read through your thread here.  When Zen first went from a 1 1/2 quart container to a 10 gal tank, he was thrown around quite a bit too from the filter and bubbler bar.  I recall trying to figure out the hose over the filter output trick and I got a gang valve to slow down the bubbler (I think this is what you're waiting on...the gang valve?).  

Anyway...I guess I didn't give all that alot of thought after the gang valve install.  Zen seemed to be negotiating the tank very well.  I even found him swimming towards the current of the filter!  What I think happened was Zen needed to develop his swimming muscles, for surely he wasn't swimming in the 1 1/2 quart!  

Once GB is back to feeling really well and has gained energy from good food, he may start developing his swimming muscles too and might end up enjoying the currents as Zen does...I don't know.

(((GB)))
 
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Thank you so much Rose and AesSedai.

Looks like it's off to PetCo for the Mardel, feeding ring, air pump regulators and anti-siphon valve.  And, the pump deflector looks like a good thing to try.  I especially liked the final step:  Then you're done, go play in traffic or something.

As for GB's trouble fighting the current, I thought it was the same thing, AesSedai.  Seemed he'd spent no time ever dealing with currents and now doesn't have the skills to handle it.  If he wasn't showing so many signs of illness, I'd let him go for a while longer to let him learn how to deal with it.  My concern, though, is that he'd wear himself out at a time when he needs the strength to fight off his infection.

Better hit the road.

Thanks all.

Mike
 

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They do eventually get used to the current and my two boys swim into it on purpose and allow themselves to be thrown about. It seems to be fun for them... They repeat this behaviour over and over until they are bored.

When I divided my ten gallon I put Karma into the side with the filter and she was really having a hard time swimming. She's SO tiny... no bigger than a neon tetra. I came up with a solution that still allows the water to flow freely but there is almost NO current at all. It couldn't be any calmer if I turned the filter right off!

I took one of those clips with a suction cup (the ones you use to clip a piece of vegetable to the inside of the tank for fish and snails) and clipped a thick piece of filter sponge to it (I used the sponge for the AquaClear filters) and attached it right below the flow of water. The water hits the sponge and goes into the tank without any current or splashing. Just make sure you use a clip made for aquariums. Regular ones have metal parts that rust and will kill the fish.

If your fish is ill, now is not a time for him to be struggling with the current.  Calm waters will help him rest.
 

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Mike- I hope that GB pulls through this soon. I will keep him and you in my prayers. At least Rose is helping you out with the this terrible illness. With her guiding you through this trying time things will work out for you and GB . I have faith that things will get better for you and him soon and he will be back to the happy fish he was before. Natalie
 
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LZ Floyd

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Hi all, we're back from the store with the air pump stuff, a feeding ring, and the CopperSafe.

Phloxface, that, too, is a good idea to reduce the filter current.  I'll check to see what's around here that can be used to try to mitigate the flow of water from the output.  Whether the flow is deflected by a plastic aparatus or buffered by a piece of filter shouldn't matter too much to GB.

BTW, you and AesSedai said your Bettas would sit in front of the filter output and swim against the current.  I saw GB doing that, too, but wasn't sure what to make of it.  He hasn't been doing that in the past 24 to 48 hours, though.

Natalie, I thank you for your well wishes.  GB seems to have a pretty good will to live, and if he wants to make it, I'm willing to help him out.

Now, on to the big guns!  There are a few things to do before administering the treatment, I think.  First, I was wondering if it's best to remove some (or all) of the decorative plants (they're not real), the charcoal-filter, and the Bio wheel before adding the CopperSafe.  I did pick up some bulk filter material to replace the charcoal filter if that was needed.  

Second, I'm wondering how much light should be filtered out.  Is wrapping the tank with newspaper the way to go?

Third, though we're not yet there, I'm wondering about water changes.  His water parameters have been testing at 0 ppm with his pre-change water (40% changed daily).  While changing the water daily would certainly keep all of the parameters at 0, it also introduces the possiblity of water temperature fluctuations and the possible need to keep adding CopperSafe.  Is it reasonable to change the water on a less frequent schedule?

Thank you all for your help and well wishes.  If I was doing this on my own, his chance to survive would be considerably less than with the help of everyone here at the Betta forum.  So, thank you.

One more post and it's time to go install the air pump parts and see what's available to mitigate the filter flow.

Mike
 

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I am going to complicate your life here I am afraid...All the carbon HAS to come out or it will remove the medication as fast as you put it in as it is what we use to REMOVE medication. Then the tank should have a good like 90% water change before adding medication so you can go a couple or 3 days maybe without a water change. You are still going to have to do them on a regular basis as he cannot handle the ammonia right now and the stress will not be good for him so daily testing is still the rule. Anything over .25 means a water change. Just try to keep the water warmer than that in the tank, I should have told you to get a glass thermometer. They are cheap and good insurance just now.

The gang valve is a good idea for the air pump but unfortunately will not do a thing about the filter output. It will take either the plastic soda bottle idea or the veggie clip and sponge that Phloxface mentioned to do that. (great idea, by the way) Easier to clean and change than the soda bottle I think.

Now for the lighting. All the light that can go should be taken away. I have heard of people using newspaper and then covering that with black garbage bags just for added insurance. The thing is that the people suffer too as room lights need to be kept at a minimum unless you cover the top of the aquarium with the bag too and I really hate to have the WHOLE tank covered as I am afraid of too much heat and not enough air exchange. Maybe I am just paranoid but that is a little severe. Besides the tank needs to be opened at the little top door for feeding and testing at least a couple times a day but not for longer than it takes to do those things and to talk to him a bit so he does not feel punished. Otherwise put your hand flat on the side of the tank and talk to him so he knows you are there and he will know he is still okay. You might cut down to smaller meals and feed 3 times a day while he is confined just so he has a little more human contact.

The plants will be okay and do not remove the bio-wheel from your tank ever for any reason no matter what as even though you have not added the Bio-spira yet the tank is doing a little bit of cycling right now and you will lose what progress you are making while you have it out.

I am truly sorry to make your life so complicated but Velvet is not an easy disease to get rid of and especially when you have so many things working against you. If you get the immediate problems taken care of like the air flow and the water flow and the large water change and the medication without the carbon filter and the dark tank, you should be able to just put the feeding ring in and just test the water for a couple of days and he will be okay.
After that though I think he is going to need to go back to having water changes every day that the ammonia is over .25 and when you do a big water change he is probably going to have to have a bit more Coppersafe added. Let me know what the precise directions are on the bottle are and I can let you know more. I do not have any on hand at present as I cannot use it in my tanks due to having catfish and Otos in every tank.

Rose
 
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chickadee said:
I am going to complicate your life here I am afraid...All the carbon HAS to come out or it will remove the medication as fast as you put it in as it is what we use to REMOVE medication.  Then the tank should have a good like 90% water change before adding medication so you can go a couple or 3 days maybe without a water change.  You are still going to have to do them on a regular basis as he cannot handle the ammonia right now and the stress will not be good for him so daily testing is still the rule.  Anything over .25 means a water change.  Just try to keep the water warmer than that in the tank, I should have told you to get a glass thermometer.  They are cheap and good insurance just now. 
Swapping out the filter is not an issue, I bought some filter material on one of the trips to petco for just such an occasion.  As far as the glass thermometer, we have two.  And, I don't know how quickly he can get the ammonia level up to 0.25, but if he gets a near complete water change my guess is he'll get three good days of being bathed in the meds without interference.  That's good.

chickadee said:
The gang valve is a good idea for the air pump but unfortunately will not do a thing about the filter output.  It will take either the plastic soda bottle idea or the veggie clip and sponge that Phloxface mentioned to do that.  (great idea, by the way)  Easier to clean and change than the soda bottle I think.
The air control devices are in.  I'm not pleased with the equipment itself, but it's doing what it needs to do and that's good enough for now.  I've not yet addressed the filter pump.  I do, however, think it'll be necessary to "calm the waters" as I won't have a visual on him during a lot of this process to know if he gets into trouble and he won't even get the break of having the filter off during those times of feeding and daily water changes. 

chickadee said:
Now for the lighting.  All the light that can go should be taken away.  I have heard of people using newspaper and then covering that with black garbage bags just for added insurance.  The thing is that the people suffer too as room lights need to be kept at a minimum unless you cover the top of the aquarium with the bag too and I really hate to have the WHOLE tank covered as I am afraid of too much heat and not enough air exchange.  Maybe I am just paranoid but that is a little severe.  Besides the tank needs to be opened at the little top door for feeding and testing at least a couple times a day but not for longer than it takes to do those things and to talk to him a bit so he does not feel punished.  Otherwise put your hand flat on the side of the tank and talk to him so he knows you are there and he will know he is still okay.  You might cut down to smaller meals and feed 3 times a day while he is confined just so he has a little more human contact.
Isolating him from light will be the biggest problem.  I don't like losing visual contact especially with his fin-gnawing incident.  Cutting down on smaller, more frequent meals would help for my being able to check on him more often, though.  As far as the top, that will let in a bit of light.  I don't know how much this parasite needs to exist, but if that small of an amount is sufficient for it to proliferate or even survive, I'd think that the light level increase that will occur with water changes would really be bad.

While MB (me wife) and I spent some time with GB this evening to check out his appearance and behavior, we tried talking to him by putting our hands on the tank.  He actually came over to that spot.  I hope he does that when we can't see him.

To add to that, with everything shut down to do a little feeding, he acted generally normal.  His appearance seemed slightly better.  I think it's because he was in a much darker environment today than yesterday when all the blinds were up and his tank light was lit.  MB could see that his gill edges were inflamed (which corroborates what I'm seeing).  She didn't think that he appeared sprinkled with gold (I, too, have been unable to say that).  She did agree that if he were a car, she'd think he was covered with surface rust (another corroboration).  I think MB's opinion helps in making a diagnosis.  If we both agree on the visual symptoms, it makes coming up with a resolution more easy.


chickadee said:
The plants will be okay and do not remove the bio-wheel from your tank ever for any reason no matter what as even though you have not added the Bio-spira yet the tank is doing a little bit of cycling right now and you will lose what progress you are making while you have it out.
Though I've not decided about the plants, the bio-wheel will stay.

chickadee said:
I am truly sorry to make your life so complicated but Velvet is not an easy disease to get rid of and especially when you have so many things working against you.  If you get the immediate problems taken care of like the air flow and the water flow and the large water change and the medication without the carbon filter and the dark tank, you should be able to just put the feeding ring in and just test the water for a couple of days and he will be okay. 
After that though I think he is going to need to go back to having water changes every day that the ammonia is over .25 and when you do a big water change he is probably going to have to have a bit more Coppersafe added.  Let me know what the precise directions are on the bottle are and I can let you know more.  I do not have any on hand at present as I cannot use it in my tanks due to having catfish and Otos in every tank.

Rose
Once the water flow problem has been dealt with, the rest should be just legwork.  There are still a few things to do to ready the tank, so, I don't think thie CopperSafe will be administered until tomorrow afternoon.  Fortunately GB didn't look worse today than yesterday (maybe even a tad better).  I don't think he's well; he needs tending to.  But, one more night's sleep in an uncovered tank won't hurt him.  And, tomorrow I can look at all this with a fresh pair of eyes, maybe even have all my ducks in a row before dosing the tank.

As far as the instructions on the CopperSafe bottle, along with a section on [disease] indictions and precautions it says, "Use 1 teaspoon (5 mL) for 4 gallons of water."  The insert also says that CopperSafe is stable for a month and to add new product to replacement water when water changes are made.  I don't have anything (yet) to measure copper levels, so, I'll have to just do the math as we go along.

For today, I think it's time to wrap it up.  GB's in sleep mode and I'm going to knock off for the evening.

Thanks again, Rose. 

Mike
 

chickadee

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Okay, just a sidenote about the medication. Do not bother yourself with testing for Copper levels. If the medication says that it is safe for 1 tsp per 4 gallons then that is the level to mix. I would take whatever container you mix water in and measure in the number of gallons it will hold (2 or 4) and add 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of water plus whatever dechlorinator you use and then put in the tank. The Hex5 with the gravel and decorations and all that I have contains about exactly 4 gallons of water and if you change out all the water you can from GB's tank and get it down to the bottom 1/2" or so then you will probably be adding about the standard 4 gallons. He is going to respond to the medication pretty fast as far as the "rusty" color being gone, but the temptation to undo the treatment and allow the temperature to fall and the medication to stop must be resisted. He can have the tent taken off after he has been "rust" free for 2 weeks but the rest of the treatment has to continue for another week past that.

Yes he will continue to respond to you while you speak during the treatment and you can see him for short times during the day with no real harm (like a water change or feeding) just try not to have the room really light and bright - enough to see of course. Just give him affection and talk to him then and he will be fine. He will know you are there from when you "talk to him" through the wall and otherwise he will probably sleep a great deal which his body will need to do. I am glad you are getting the current problems fixed though so he will not be getting so tired fighting it. He will also learn how to use the feeding ring and will like not having to chase his food. It may take him a couple of meals to get used to but he will find the food and then will know that when that thing hits the water, OH BOY it is time for a NOSH...

I am sending good thoughts and wishes and please do not hesitate to let us know if there is anything you may have comments or questions about. We are here to help, even if it may seem like we do not get right back to you sometimes. Sorry this had to wait overnight...I had a small accident last night and went to bed early.

Rose
 
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LZ Floyd

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Accident?  Hope it's nothing serious, Rose.  If so, I hope you're doing okay.

Mike
 

chickadee

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I dropped a big can of fruit juice on my foot and tore a tendon and since it was right where the toes meet the foot, I won't be wearing a shoe for a bit is all and it is swollen some.  DUH, butterfingers!!!! (embarassed  :-[)

I believe the Dr. said I was a disaster waiting to happen and gave me a rather stern lecture about staying out of the kitchen...It is Kool-Aid for me from now on...

Rose
 
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