Frustratingly high pH?

Hi all, and greetings from Berkeley California.

With the covid crisis I have found myself with enough time to to revitalize my fish keeping hobby and set up some fish tanks.

Problem is I just got around to checking my water parameters out of the Tap, and they are very disappointing.

The pH read off of my tap water (using an API freshwater master test kit and its High Range pH test) shows a dark bright purple when i first shake up the vile, suggesting a pH of 8.8 or higher. Admittedly the color eases off after a few moments, but i suspect thats because the testing particles are falling out of solution.

Upon looking at a local water quality report for Albany/Berkeley, CA fo 2019, the story seems to get even worse. Their figures, based strictly on the water treatment plant where my tap water comes from, suggest a pH range of 9.2 - 9.4. It also provided the following readings regarding hardness (though i'm less certain how to interpret these)

Alkalinity, Total as CAc03 (ppm) 22-44
Calcium (ppm) 4-8
Hardness as CaCO3 (gpgf) 1-2
Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm) 14-34
Magneisum (ppm) 1-2
Potasium (ppm) < 1-1


Up until now I've definitely been of the mentality to condition your fish to accept your water, and not the other way around, but given these parameters I'm concerned that I may not be able to keep fish at all!

Are there reliable, and preferably natural ways, to bring the pH down? And for that matter, whats the highest pH I could reasonably expect dwarf cichlids, loaches, tetras, corydoras, and killifish to live in?

I'm aware of R/O systems, but i don't have the capacity to run one.


Thanks for your help!

 

Do you have well water? You could try mixing this 50/50 with tap water and treating with seachem equilibrium to replace the lost minerals. I do it myself with rainwater as my tapwater is liquid rock like yours and I’ve never had any problems. Just make sure you do it very gradual though. Have you considered just keeping cichlids alone as they would more likely thrive with your tap water?

 

Tannins from driftwood will lower pH naturally, along with Indian Almond Leaves

 

PH right out of the tap is sometimes higher than true PH. Draw some water out of the tap and let it sit for 24 hours and then test it to find the true PH.

I have been working to better understand water chemistry. I have a lot to learn. We have a water softener and when I started, I was oblivious to the issue and used water straight out of the tap. I learned that water softener water is not good so I now get my water from before the water softener.

My unsoftened water has PH 8.2, GH and KH between 7 and 8 degrees. I would like the PH and hardness a bit lower, but have decided to live with it. I have been advised not to try to mess with it. Yours is more extreme than mine. Perhaps you will have to mess with it.

I have read that the best way to lower PH and hardness is by diluting it with RO or distilled water. In my case driftwood does nothing. I have been advised that driftwood will not do much if KH (buffering) is high. I have not tried Indian leaves but I would guess it would be similar. Even if it worked, you would have a problem of raising levels with every water change.

Maybe you could talk to a local fish store. They should have experience with the local water. Although remember, they are in the business of selling water treatment products so they may advise a complicated and expensive process.

It is my understanding that African Cichlids do well in high PH / Hard water. South American Cichlids prefer softer / low PH water. Maybe African Cichlids are the best choice. Maybe some African catfish as well.

Tetras and Corydoras prefer softer water. I do not know abut killifish and loaches. I have also read that captive bred fish often tolerate water that is different from their home water better than wild caught fish. Tetras and Corydoras come from soft water and are therefore believed to prefer soft water. But after generations of being bred in harder water, they may have adapted. But who knows what water any particular captive bred fish has been bred in.

I understand that soft water fish will often survive in hard water but will not breed in hard water. Some breeders spawn their fish in soft water but then transition them to hard water and raise them in hard water.

I bought 8 Panda Corydoras and 7 died. I am going to try Cories again since I am told that they should do okay in my water. I also have Harlequin Rasboras. The prefer softer water. So far they seem to be doing well but I have only had them for two weeks.

Anyway, my belief is that it is best to embrace your tap water and look for fish who will do well in your water than to mess with your water. And if you are going to mess with it, make sure your really know what you are doing. There have been a lot of threads on this site with people who have tried to modify their water without understanding what they are doing and really gotten it messed up and have had many fish deaths.

You seem like you do your research so perhaps you can do it successfully, but it is more work and it makes water changes more complicated. It makes life easier if you embrace your tap water.

 

Sorg67

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply.

As you suggest, I'm collecting a water sample now to let sit over night for a second test.

Much as you said, I am quite reluctant to tamper with my tap water, and would much rather acclimate my fish to my water, and better yet, choose fish that are likely to do well in the water I have available.

That said, if i'm not going to mess with the water, are there even any fish that can thrive, or even survive in 9.2-9.4 pH water? Its a pH level that almost seems off the charts from the recommended parameters for most fish i've seen.

Alternatively If i am going to try and alter the water, I am indeed weary of taking a local fish store's advice, as I'm looking for the most straight forward, safest, and most foolproof method to lower the pH, even if my gains on the pH scale are fairly modest. I'm not looking to get it to 6.5 or anything, just looking to get it to a place where the pH level alone isn't going to kill my fish.

 

Sorg67

an Update:

I've collected some tap water in a 1 gallon plastic jug and am allowing it to age. With just 8 hours or so of sitting, the pH appears to have dropped to between 8.0-8.2. I'm now setting aside a larger portion of tap water and deliberately letting it sit in an even more open container than a gallon jug. I will be testing it again in 24 hours, then again at 48, and again at 72.

Admittedly a drop from 8.8+ to 8.2- in a few hours seems too good to be true. I'd point to user error, but the API kit is something i've used for years, and theres just no mistaking the Barney the dinosaur color purple the test is showing out of the tap, vs the far mellower beige to light beige i'm getting from the rested water, even if i am a fraction of a mL off in my water sampling size or a fraction of a drop off in the adding of the reagent these results are blatantly separated by a wide margin. Not to mention, i've tested both these waters several times and I am consistently get the same results.

Does this large a drop off make sense to the rest of you guys?

I'll be sure to keep you posted with newer test results, but i'm eager to hear more from you guys.

Considering the 9.4 i was fearing yesterday, 8.2 would be a dream!

I just might be able to squeeze in some of those south american fish yet!

 

I have read that municipalities sometimes treat water to raise PH for the purpose of reducing corrosion in pipes. I do not know how that works, but I understand the effect is temporary. So dropping PH after sitting is consistent with what I read.

My PH is 8.2 and I have been told that some South American Cichlids could adjust to my water if my TDS is not too high. I have ordered a TDS meter, but have not gotten it yet.

Chanyi - Do you have a comment on this?

 

Sorry, can't resist, try Delta Smelt, just don't get caught harvesting them .

Ok, seriously, either remineralized RO/DI, or Bottled water may be your only option. I wouldn't hold my breath on the tannins from drift wood. I added a huge piece of spiderwood to my tank and my pH went from 8.0 to 8.4 the following week, but in the last three or four weeks has settled at 8.2. Go figure .

 

It can be helpful to talk to the LFS (not chain store) owners in your area if you have some reputable stores. They are often enthusiasts who keep and breed their own fish and know other local breeders and can provide advice regarding local water parameters and the species that do well in them.

 

Mongo75 what fish are you keeping in that 8.0 - 8.2 water?

 

Mongo75 what fish are you keeping in that 8.0 - 8.2 water?

One Black Marble Angel, one nerite snail, and seven Zebra Danios. Before the Danios, I had 4 Mollies. Three died for unknown reasons, about a week apart, back in February, and they weren't showing any signs of sickness, just here one day and gone the next. The 4th died from dropsy about 4 weeks ago.

 

Update:

Sorg67 and Chanyi

So the 24 hour test results are in, and i'm blown away once again.


On the high pH range test its looking like a pH of 7.8 or lower? I ran a regular range pH test as well, and its still at or above 7.6 on that scale.


Is my water simply devoid of buffers altogether? Or how can we account for this jump from 8.8+ to 7.8- in just 24 hours? Has anyone dealt with something like this before?

I'd be thrilled to use 7.8 water in the tank, and curing water for 24 hours would be real easy. But at this point, can this water be trusted to maintain a constant pH at any level? Do i need to add a buffer? If so what would you guys recommend. I will be sure to continue testing at 48 hours and 72 hours as originally planned.


Also can someone help me decipher these water readings from the water management district in terms of alkalinity, hardness, and buffers present or absent in my water? I'm not exactly sure what to make of these:

Alkalinity, Total as CAc03 (ppm) 22-44
Calcium (ppm) 4-8
Hardness as CaCO3 (gpgf) 1-2
Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm) 14-34
Magneisum (ppm) 1-2
Potasium (ppm) < 1-1

Thanks for your help!

 

Dwarf cichlids that can survive in high pH levels include kribensis, apistogramma borelli, and apistogramma cacatuoides (if properly acclimated)

 

I am just learning about water chemistry. Chanyi understand this stuff better than I do.

I am not familiar with the measurements you listed.

I measure general hardness GH in degrees. My water is 8 dGH which is 143 ppm.

Carbonate hardness KH in degrees. My water is also 8 dKH.

My 8 dKH causes my PH to be very stable. I have read that KH as low as 1 or 2 degrees 18 to 36 ppm is sufficient to keep PH stable. However, I have seen my PH fall when my KH got down to 1 or 2 degrees. I think PH is dependent on many things I am not familiar with.

My guess is that your 24 hour level will be stable. But that is a guess.

 

I am just learning about water chemistry. Chanyi understand this stuff better than I do.

I am not familiar with the measurements you listed.

I measure general hardness GH in degrees. My water is 8 dGH which is 143 ppm.

Carbonate hardness KH in degrees. My water is also 8 dKH.

My 8 dKH causes my PH to be very stable. I have read that KH as low as 1 or 2 degrees 18 to 36 ppm is sufficient to keep PH stable. However, I have seen my PH fall when my KH got down to 1 or 2 degrees. I think PH is dependent on many things I am not familiar with.

My guess is that your 24 hour level will be stable. But that is a guess.

Just as a FYI, CaCO3 is the carbonate hardness, or better known as KH. The magnesium would be the GH, and I'm not sure about the potassium...? I also stand to be corrected .

 

Just as a FYI, CaCO3 is the carbonate hardness, or better known as KH. The magnesium would be the GH, and I'm not sure about the potassium...? I also stand to be corrected .

Thanks. My understanding is that GH is mostly Magnesium and Calcium. I am not sure if it is just Magnesium and Calcium or if it is mostly and includes other things like possibly potassium.

 

Thanks. My understanding is that GH is mostly Magnesium and Calcium. I am not sure if it is just Magnesium and Calcium or if it is mostly and includes other things like possibly potassium.

GH is magnesium + calcium.

 

Update after 48 and 72 hour tests.

So the results are in (and in picture form!)

At 48 hours we got on the high pH test this looks to me like 7.4? Maybe the 7.8?

I double checked on the lower pH scale, and got this looks like a 7.6 or maybe closer to 7.2?

At 72 hours on the high pH test we got which again is looking like a 7.4.
Double checked on the lower pH scale just to be sure and this looking like a 7.6.

So in sum the pH results were as follows:

-Straight out of the tap: 8.8+
-24 hours of resting: 7.8- (maybe 7.4)
-48 hours of resting 7.4-7.6
-72 hours of resting 7.4 -7.6


Questions:
1) Do you guys agree with my interpretations of the colors? I always convince myself i'm not reading it right. (are the vials reading 7.4 or 7.8 on the high pH scale?)

2) At this stage would you feel comfortable assuming the pH is 7.4-7.6, once i've been able to let it rest for a time out of the tap?

3) Do you think i should add a buffer to help maintain the pH at around 7.4-7.6? Im afraid it will bounce around more once i start adding substrate, plants, and fish

4) If i should use a buffer, what is the buffer of choice? What do they cost, whats the maintenance and upkeep like, and what are some of the pitfalls of the buffer your recommending. Keep in mind i'm ultimately hoping to keep a German Blue Rams, corydoras, celestial pearl danios, clown loaches, and maybe angels, so i'm not looking for a buffer thats gonna cause the pH to rise (especially not significantly)

5) i suppose a related question is what is my water hardness. While I don't have the tester kit for this, i do have the water districts read out:

Alkalinity, Total as CAc03 (ppm) 22-44
Calcium (ppm) 4-8
Hardness as CaCO3 (gpgf) 1-2
Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm) 14-34
Magneisum (ppm) 1-2
Potasium (ppm) < 1-1

Can any one make sense of this to me in terms of hardness that matters for my pH?


All this said, if i can find a way to maintain something like 7.5 pH water, i should be in fairly good shape. I've also got it on reasonably good authority that folks grow south american fish in my area with little to no trouble.



Thanks for your help!