Frogbit turns yellow, brown, and rots.

1611mac

My Frogbit turns yellow then brown and rots. I want to keep a good supply as the Sakura Shrimp really like to set upside down on the bottom of it. (getting algae I presume) - But the Frogbit is not doing well in any of my tanks. Water in all is 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 10 nitrate, GH and KH both 3 to 4 (53-71 ppm). No copper, no phosphates. Ph is 7.6. Water Temp. = 74 to 76 f

The 20 gallon RCS tank is worst. I'm seeing no new growth. My 55 get's new growth but the death rot comes faster than the growth. I have a 29 gallon that just holds it's own, barely.

All tanks get a weekly 25% water change.

I was using Seachem ferts in the 29 gallon but stopped for a while. The 20 and 55 are fully cycled and about a month old with stock. All tanks now have charcoal in filter.

Lighting in all tanks is T5 6500K Daylight. Plants in all tanks are largely low light and doing very well.

The Frogbit is the only plant that is not healthy. Mosses, Wisteria, Micro Sword, Hornwort, Subwassertang, Ludwigia, Darf Sagittaria, Vallisneria are all doing great.

How do I troubleshoot my Frogbit problem? Thanks in advance.

Pic from 20 gallon shrimp tank:
 

Aquaphobia

What kind of filtration do you use? Is there a lot of surface movement?
 

1611mac

Yes. they all have quite a bit of surface movement... the 20 has the least.

55g has a Sunsun canister with spraybar spraying out and down about 45 degrees right below surface. Curent keeps frogbit on both ends and both ends are equally bad.

29g has Penquin BioWheel 200 hob. Frogbit is constantly "spinning."

20g has two filters. The permanent one is a hob 20 gal filter. I have the tank divided currently (due to juvenile shrimp) but the filter is setup so that about 1/3 spills into the shrimp half (which is 1/3 of the tank.) This tank also has a larger hob on the far end (of the frogbit.) I can take it out anytime. It was my "source" for my bacteria as the other filter was new. I had left it for now for extra filtration. It's a Topfin 40 set on lowest flow.

Does frogbit like or dis-like water movement? It's seems to be doing best in the 29 gallon where it spins 24hrs a day and worst in 20 gal where the divider inhibits flow (except for the direct partial filter spill.)
 

Aquaphobia

Dislikes, but if it's doing best in the tank with movement perhaps there are other factors at work here.
 

1611mac

Could it be light? I have lights on for 12 hours a day. Too much?

20g has two 24 watt T5 Daylight tubes.

The 55 is running one bank of two 54 watt T5's right now in the 55 (green algae was starting to get out of control)

The 29 is running one bank of two 24 watts.

I don't run all four lights on the 29 or 55 'cause everything is low light...

Should I try different lighting patterns?

also.. in the 55 gallon the frogbit mixes in with the Hortwort (on one end) and doesn't move around much. But that's one just one end. The other end is just Frogbit and it doesn't seem to do any better.
 

Aquaphobia

12 hours is a lot. I would start by cutting back to 8 hours or less. That might help your frogbit and will probably reduce your algae problem. I like to split my lighting times so that they're not on for the full stretch. So if I want 8 hours I would do 4 in the morning and 4 at night.
 

Bluestreakfl

So to clarify, you are, or aren't using ferts in the frogbit tanks? Also with planted tanks, its good to have your nitrates a hair higher than what they are, so plants don't become deficient.
 

Thomas Lin

My frogbit spread like fire in a 0 nitrate tank with a SunSun canister.

Is there any condensation dripping onto the leaves? That ends up killing them.


 

1611mac

So to clarify, you are, or aren't using ferts in the frogbit tanks? Also with planted tanks, its good to have your nitrates a hair higher than what they are, so plants don't become deficient.

No... Currently no ferts.... I wanted to see how everything did without them. First thing I did when my son gave me the established 29 gallon tank was to start using them. I wanted to go without first to see results.

so.. No Ferts...

My frogbit spread like fire in a 0 nitrate tank with a SunSun canister.

Is there any condensation dripping onto the leaves? That ends up killing them.

What????? Are you kidding? Leaves are under water all over the place... In any give clump at lease one is under water and half of several others. And they spin around sometimes going under the filer output... while I'm doing water changes... Condensation? Condensation?
 

Bluestreakfl

I'm betting its some kind of nutrient deficiency. Id start dosing Seachem Flourish wekly and see if it makes any difference. You could also split the dosing in half and dose every 3-4 days as well if you're worried about algae forming from a sudden burst in nutrients.
 

1611mac

I'm betting its some kind of nutrient deficiency. Id start dosing Seachem Flourish wekly and see if it makes any difference. You could also split the dosing in half and dose every 3-4 days as well if you're worried about algae forming from a sudden burst in nutrients.

That means removing charcoal from filters, right? I was more worried about that... I like the thought of clear water though I know there is debate about the worth of charcoal in filters.....
 

smee82

I have a heap of frogbit in a my tanks and the few glass bowls and the only differences I can think of is water movement and yours are under water at times and being buffet by the filter. The.only tank where my frogbit has any yellowing of leaves is in my 8g bowl with a sponge filter and in that only the plants that get bubbled by the filter have any damage so id guess that's the cause of yours too.
 

Bluestreakfl

I'll be honest I'm not sure how much carbon effects fertilizers, Dolfan may know. I personally don't use carbon so I can't say. Minus one tank, my other 5 stay crystal clear, the other one is still a work in progress and having some issues with cloudiness between the substrate being very dusty and a slight algae bloom. The only time I would use carbon is to remove medication from the water after treating, but again it's a personal preference.


 

1611mac

I have a heap of frogbit in a my tanks and the few glass bowls and the only differences I can think of is water movement and yours are under water at times and being buffet by the filter. The.only tank where my frogbit has any yellowing of leaves is in my 8g bowl with a sponge filter and in that only the plants that get bubbled by the filter have any damage so id guess that's the cause of yours too.

OK... I'm baffled by the "under water" statements. Even if mine were sitting in a bowl of water on the counter with no movement whatsoever some of the leaves would be under water. It's just they way they are attached to the "root." The stem to the leaf is not long enough to keep the back half out of water.

I'm looking at a clump now and three of the big leaves are angled down 45 degrees. How are those NOT going to be in the water?

I'll be honest I'm not sure how much carbon effects fertilizers, Dolfan may know. I personally don't use carbon so I can't say. Minus one tank, my other 5 stay crystal clear, the other one is still a work in progress and having some issues with cloudiness between the substrate being very dusty and a slight algae bloom. The only time I would use carbon is to remove medication from the water after treating, but again it's a personal preference.


I read several posts here concerning Ferts and XC. Opinions abound but I'd say the most popular answer is that the plants absorb the Ferts a lot faster than the XC does. I just dosed my tanks a few minutes ago with Flourish, even my RCS (sakura) tank. I read many posts of users of Flourish in their RCS tanks.

We'll see if the ferts help. I'm still very confused about "the leaf being wet." (see above post)

I have a heap of frogbit in a my tanks and the few glass bowls -snip-

Glass bowls? Explain please. Just Frogbit in a glass bowl?
 

smee82

1611mac I have too much for my current tanks and instead of tossing it ive been keeping them in bowls for when my 100 gallon gets setup. The ones in bowls are seem to be doing a lot better then those on my tanks. All there in is a bit more then an inch of old tank water with nothing added and direct sunlight.
A simple experiment you can do is take one out and chuck in a container of water under the sun, if it doesn't go bad there's a good chance its tour water movement
 

1611mac

Here's an idea.... Could it be blowing air?


I work from home and my "office" is a 12x12 room. The 55 gallon and 20 gallon tanks are in there. With computers, lights, etc it gets very hot so I have to run a ceiling fan. How does this effect things? The tanks are open... perhaps I should get glass covers?

@ I have too much for my current tanks and instead of tossing it ive been keeping them in bowls for when my 100 gallon gets setup. The ones in bowls are seem to be doing a lot better then those on my tanks. All there in is a bit more then an inch of old tank water with nothing added and direct sunlight.
A simple experiment you can do is take one out and chuck in a container of water under the sun, if it doesn't go bad there's a good chance its tour water movement

humm... I'lll put some in a 1 gallon ice cream bucket and see what happens. No.. I'll do two. One with ferts and one without.
 

smee82

1611mac I have too much for my current tanks and instead of tossing it ive been keeping them in bowls for when my 100 gallon gets setup. The ones in bowls are seem to be doing a lot better then those on my tanks. All there in is a bit more then an inch of old tank water with nothing added and direct sunlight.
A simple experiment you can do is take one out and chuck in a container of water under the sun, if it doesn't go bad there's a good chance its tour water movement

Can a mod deletes this please my phone doubke posted
 

Bluestreakfl

I read several posts here concerning Ferts and XC. Opinions abound but I'd say the most popular answer is that the plants absorb the Ferts a lot faster than the XC does. I just dosed my tanks a few minutes ago with Flourish, even my RCS (sakura) tank. I read many posts of users of Flourish in their RCS tanks.

We'll see if the ferts help. I'm still very confused about "the leaf being wet." (see above post)

Flourish is fine with shrimps. The key is adjusting the dose accordingly. In a lightly planted tank, I'd recommend lowering your dosing. Although, I did once overdose my RCS tank once. Way back when I was treating the guppies for Ich, I accidentally dosed flourish instead of the Kordon Ich attack I was using for treatment. It was a 9x overdose of flourish. I did about a 30% water change with a double dose of prime, and had no casualties. I did however do some research, and the tiny amount of copper in flourish is negligible. Prime will also detoxify copper and other heavy metals. This is another reason I don't dose ferts right after water changes, but rather wait a few days after, I've always felt prime may alter some of the minerals.


 

1611mac

I am still at a loss as I look at more and more Frogbit pics and video's. The leaves in the pics are "perfect, dry, and ON TOP of water".. my leaves hang "in" water, not "on" water. Even if sitting in a perfectly calm bowl some hang in water.

In many clump's larger leaves angle down 45 degrees so the outward half is in water. Many don't have stems long enough to keep the leaf out of water.

Best specimens are the new pads hanging on runners. The runners are flexible enough to allow the pad to float. But the stems on the main clump don't flex enough to allow the leaves to "float." Thus, they yellow and rot.

Hoping that the Ferts will help...
 

Bluestreakfl

It definitely sounds like some sort of deficiency, almost as if the leaves are curling the wrong way and thus also causing some parts to be submerged whereas if healthy the majority of not whole leaf surface should be above water. I have a feeling the ferts will help. You won't see it overnight but probably within a week or two you should be able to notice some improvement. Definitely keep us posted.


 

Dolfan

It sounds like you are having a deficiency of some sort. Flourish will help some. Also, frogbit does better with less surface movement.

Carbon removes some of the elements in fertilizer (I've read things like iron to a certain extent) but it doesn't scrub the water clean of all of them. Many people use carbon in tanks with plants and ferts and have no issues. In theory maybe they have to add a little bit more ferts, maybe 10% increase to compensate for what carbon is removing, but not much.

Remember too, that carbon is not "needed", some like it and some don't. I keep some around for emergencies but don't see the need to use it regularly. Can't remember the last time I had to use some, been 2 or 3 years at least. Water changes, occasional gravel vacs, and the plants themselves do a great job of cleaning the water.
 

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