Frog Injury Treatment Question

Discussion in 'Amphibians' started by bitseriously, Apr 9, 2018.

  1. bitseriously

    bitseriouslyWell Known MemberMember

    I have 3 african dwarf frogs in a (nearly) species only setup. It’s a divided 10gal, only folks sharing the half with the frogs are amanos and a nerite.
    One of the frogs has an injury to her bottom jaw. (In the pic, she’s alive and kicking, I just removed her from tank for inspection and pic).
    1D055ECB-4120-48C8-AB36-77BB3D3B7F4D.jpeg
    I suspect it’s from 2 frogs lunging at a single bloodworm, and one grabbing her jaw by mistake. If u have frogs, you’ll know they can grab/pull/wrestle with lots of vigor when they think a meal might get away.
    I’ve been monitoring for a week and a bit, during which time it hasn’t seemed to be debilitating, and she’s eating as enthusiastically as ever.
    But today it seemed a bit redder than before, so I took her out for a quick look, and now u see what I’m seeing. Kinda looks weepy/pus-y, no? So I’m thinking a secondary bacterial infection.
    A. Do I continue to monitor and hope for healing/recovery, or intervene and treat?
    B. Since she’s eating so well, I don’t think I’d have any trouble feeding medicated bloodworms (all 3 frogs are hand/target fed, so she’s be the only one getting medicated food), but how would I prepare them? I have Fish Mox capsules (amoxicillin) and kanaplex on hand, and frozen bloodworms. I can get FD bloodworm if that’s better. Would garlic guard help with palatability for frogs, as it does with fish? Fish Mox is pretty broad-spectrum, but not sure about kanaplex. I think it’s mainly for gram-pos (usually anaerobic) bacteria, would that include a skin or surface infection like this?
    Thx!
     
  2. Lucy

    LucyModeratorModerator Member

    Hi bitseriously
    I don't think I've seen anything like that before. My frogs do the same as yours, grab each other and wrestle around sometimes when they sense food.

    Not sure what to advise since you're not positive it's an injury. Having frogs you know how things can go from 'Is my frog ok' to really bad quickly.
    If you think it's an infection by all means medicate. I don't know if kanaplex or amoxicillin is frog safe. T.C. Tetracycline was found safe by another member.

    Sorry, not much help. Hopefully someone else will chime in.
     
  3. OP
    OP
    bitseriously

    bitseriouslyWell Known MemberMember

    So, I've got "confirmation" that KanaPlex will be okay for frogs via wetwebmedia, so I go back to my prior question, does anyone have a recipe or method for infusing/treating bloodworms (FD or frozen) with powder antibiotic? I don't know if I'm using the wrong search terms of what, but I can't find anything, here or on the wider web.
    One of the only dosage-based recommendations comes from seachems kanaplex product page/label. They recommend 1 scoop of kanaplex to 1 tbsp of food. If I treat a single bloodworm cube (thawed), that's what about a tsp or 1/3 of a tbsp, so reduce kanaplex dose accordingly?
    @Lucy, I've seen posts from you in the past about using neosporin on frogs, is there any evidence/anecdotes that it's effective?
    Thx!
     




  4. Lucy

    LucyModeratorModerator Member

    The neosporin info comes from flippersnfins. There are several over there have great experience with ADF's.
    It would more for an open wound if I remember correctly.

    There's a video around here using focus (?) to help bind meds to food. It might just mean fish flakes but I'll look for it.
     
  5. Lucy

    LucyModeratorModerator Member

  6. OP
    OP
    bitseriously

    bitseriouslyWell Known MemberMember

    Okay. Here we go.
    As said above, I have it from a source I trust (wwm, which I always want to call wmd, but that’s something much different) that kanaplex is okay for frogs. And since my girl is eating well, I’m going with homemade medicated frozen bloodworms.
    I’m taking it on faith that Focus is also safe.
    Per Focus instructions, I mixed Focus and medication (KanaPlex) at 5:1*. I used half a measure of kanaplex to 2.5 measures of focus. I added enough tank water to mix it into a loose slurry - literally a few drops. Then I added 1 thawed bloodworm cube, mixed it up, then set it aside for the med to soak into the bloodworms. 1 hr later I fed the first batch, and she gobbled them up without hesitation. I have enough to feed maybe 4-5 meals from the 1 cube, since my other 2 are eating ordinary untreated bloodworms. The rest of the mix is reserved to the fridge, with the container lid cracked just a bit to let the mixture dry/set just a bit more.

    I’ll keep you posted, frog-friends!

    There appears to be 2 different instructions from seachem. On website’s product page, direction is 1 scoop med to 1 scoop focus, but rear of package says 5:1.
     
  7. Lucy

    LucyModeratorModerator Member

    How's your frog doing?
     
  8. OP
    OP
    bitseriously

    bitseriouslyWell Known MemberMember

    You're so nice to ask!!
    She's been on the medicated bloodworms for 2 days now, so it'a bit early to expect anything, I think. But her appetite continues to be great, and importantly, she doesn't seem to have any difficulty eating. I'm not really worried about primary infection, more about secondary, as in 'what if this turns into something more serious'. I know frogs have pretty great regen and healing abilities, and I'd hoped to see an improvement to the affected area by now, but nothing good to report there. In profile (ie from certain angles) it almost looks like part of her bottom lip or jaw is ripped, torn, or fractured. And now she's starting to show a bump on her nose, ie the tip of the upper jaw, right where an egg tooth would be on a baby bird or reptile. I assume it's related, but can't imagine how.
    So I'll keep feeding the medicated worms, aiming for a 5-7 day treatment course, then continue to monitor. Don't know what else I can do, at this time.
    :) and also :sour:, because :hurting:, but hope not :dead:
     
  9. OP
    OP
    bitseriously

    bitseriouslyWell Known MemberMember

    So I’m starting to be a bit more concerned about the frog I wrote about in this post, as well as another female in the same tank.
    The girl with the jaw injury, that I’ve been treating with antibiotics for the past three days, looked super skinny last night, despite eating the medicated worms well. So I only fed a couple of the medicated worms and stuffed her with pretty much all she could eat of unmedicated worms (FYI, she’s never taken to pellets, so frozen bloodworms is the only food I have that she’ll eat). Best guess is that I possibly overdosed the amount of antibiotic. Today she’s spending most of her time near the surface, but doesn’t look uncomfortable and isn’t thrashing about or trying to climb out. She does look constipated, and has had a two-or-more-movement poop hanging out of her butt most of the day. Can anyone suggest a frog laxative?
    The other frog is a larger female, that appears to be showing early signs of bloat (liquid-filled, not air). She’s getting fatter by the day, regardless of being on a diet lately. And it’s just her middle that’s getting bigger, no puffiness at all in the limbs or head. So ironically, based on what I’ve read elsewhere, I’m thinking this may also be a constipation issue. Again, any frog laxative suggestions? This frog will eat pellets, to the point of near-exploding if I let her.
    I feel like I’ve read pretty much everything there is to find out there about bloat, so I know that the prognosis is not great for the bigger girl, and I know that it may (?) have a bacterial origin, but I really want to eliminate the easier to treat options first.
     
  10. OP
    OP
    bitseriously

    bitseriouslyWell Known MemberMember

    I’m providing updates for two different frog problem threads, both of which have the same (negative) outcome, so I hope this doesn’t cause confusion.
    I euthanized this frog last night, her injury did not seem to be improving, and her ability to eat was starting to be seriously impaired.
    As many of you who own African dwarf frogs may know, they are suction feeders, inhaling their food or prey similar to how a bass or other large mouth fish might strike. An important difference is that there is no rear exit for the water they inhale after they suck in a mouthful (in fish, this water would pass through the gills). In these frogs, it appears they open their mouth quick and wide which, in conjunction with a quick lunge forward, places the prey in their open mouth. If they are not able to grab or trap the prey in their mouth as they close it, the prey is blown out forward as they expel the water. This is what was happening with my girl. Three quarters of the time she tried to grab a bloodworm, you could see it shooting forward out of her reach. In addition, with successive misses, you could see she became more and more reluctant to strike, and I think this was due to discomfort or pain in her mouth area.
    Where she used to eat five or six bloodworms in quick succession, feeding three or four became a 15 minute undertaking.
    Although the antibiotic bath appears to have prevented any acute infection, the mouth wound itself never showed signs of healing. In describing it to someone the other day, I compared it to a compound bone fracture, with the bone sticking through the skin but not being infected; unless the wind itself heals, there’s no way the patient could possibly recover.
    So I made the decision yesterday to prevent a long and prolonged decline by euthanizing her in the most humane way I could. After researching, I decided to use benzocaine (Orajel, with 20% ai). This is a generally well accepted method for euthanizing amphibians. The ointment is applied to the frogs tummy, and with little or no discomfort, they are rendered unconscious, and possibly killed outright. In my case, it took two generous applications to her tummy (and approximately 2 to 3 minutes) to render her clearly unconscious, after which I pierced her skull with a sharp knife to ensure she would not wake up. Not trying to be grotesque, but, as said the six-fingered man, “this is for posterity”.
    A final note: I have read that Neosporin is a suitable topical antibiotic for frogs, so I chose to use NeoPlex for the bath treatment. I contacted Seachem to ask if NeoPlex would be suitable for a frog and their response was that the active ingredient should pose no risk however they could not ensure the excipients would not cause any problems. In the end, I saw no adverse reaction to the treatment; other than her injury, she seemed quite comfortable in the hospital tank.
     
  11. Lucy

    LucyModeratorModerator Member

    I'm so sorry about your frogs. Naturally, we were hoping for a better outcome.
    It must have been hard for you to write this but thank you for taking the time to do it.
     




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