Freshwater sump?!

Why have a sump for a 20g? I just think it's a little over done...but that's just my opinion.

I think option 2 is best, more biological the better, you can pull stuff out of it for a QT or set up a new tank. Though I would move the filter into the return bump area.

 

Why have a sump for a 20g? I just think it's a little over done...but that's just my opinion.

I know its overkill, but I felt I thoroughly explained my reasoning in the other thread I mentioned. The primary reasons are to keep a consistent water level in my tank and to hide equipment. It will also give me a slightly increased water volume and change the current flow in the display tank. There's also probably a little bit of desire to experiment and make it work; proof of concept for when I upgrade to a larger tank.

I think option 2 is best, more biological the better, you can pull stuff out of it for a QT or set up a new tank. Though I would move the filter into the return bump area.

You lost me. I understand the bit about using extra biological media to seed new tanks. I've done that before and is a consideration as well, but I don't understand the moving the filter part? The first two chambers are filters, mechanical and biological, the last chamber only has the return pump. Do you mean moving the heater to the last chamber? That's what I have in Option 1 and size of the chambers is directly related to the placement of the heater. I don't think I'll be able to make those chambers much larger than I've sketched if I place heater in the return chamber.

 

Sorry I mean move the heater to the return area.

 

Sorry I mean move the heater to the return area.

Thanks. I thought that's what you meant. Any particular reason? I was under the impression that anywhere in the sump is fine as long as its in the stream of flow.

 

Honestly I wouldn’t. I built my own sump from scratch for my 30 gallon. I’ve had nothing but problems and I still need to do more fine tuning. A sump really isn’t worth the trouble for anything less than a 75 IMO. but go ahead if you want. I’m using a aqueon pump for my return I got for cheap on amazon and that’s the only good thing I’ve gotten out of it.

 

Thanks. I thought that's what you meant. Any particular reason? I was under the impression that anywhere in the sump is fine as long as its in the stream of flow.

Cause you don’t want to have to go digging into the filtration systems to get a heater that is dead. If it’s in open space pull it out and that’s it.

Work smarter, not harder

 

If you do decide to place the heater into the return section, I would suggest having a small (like 2-4 inch tall) baffle just in case the water runs dry, so it doesn't damage and shatter both the filter return and the heater and it stays submerged at all times.

 

I have one that almost matches your number one, I works great

I also included a Daphnia Moina chamber so there is a constant supply of live food.

 

I have one that almost matches your number one, I works great

I also included a Daphnia Moina chamber so there is a constant supply of live food.

Except I'd just split the return, and have a ball valve and have some of that going into that chamber for daphnia - as well as planting it out for nitrate control or a good hospital tank - tp reduce the amount of plugs and waste of electricity.

 

I have a small usb powered pump running every second day, so the little fellows can repopulate and I can adjust water exhange indepentently from the main return

The maintank is heavily planted and I actually add nitrate as it will be 0.0 without, I guess the biohome ulitmate is working.

I have LED and DC pumps so the wattage isn't that high, the most consuming is the heater.

 

I have a small usb powered pump running every second day, so the little fellows can repopulate and I can adjust water exhange indepentently from the main return

The maintank is heavily planted and I actually add nitrate as it will be 0.0 without, I guess the biohome ulitmate is working.

I have LED and DC pumps so the wattage isn't that high, the most consuming is the heater.

Idk if the OP is going with a planted tank, and even then having no nitrates is only when its heavily planted as you said.... I was more directing it to the OP.

 

So many replies... This is what I get for not looking over the weekend.

Honestly I wouldn’t. I built my own sump from scratch for my 30 gallon. I’ve had nothing but problems and I still need to do more fine tuning. A sump really isn’t worth the trouble for anything less than a 75 IMO. but go ahead if you want. I’m using a aqueon pump for my return I got for cheap on amazon and that’s the only good thing I’ve gotten out of it.

Thanks for the advice, but may I ask what sort of problems are you having? My only real concern is whether or not my overflow is going to keep up with the return pump.

I have one that almost matches your number one, I works great

I also included a Daphnia Moina chamber so there is a constant supply of live food.

Yep, that's about what I'm looking at doing, except that I'd do it without the extra daphnia moina chamber .

Cause you don’t want to have to go digging into the filtration systems to get a heater that is dead. If it’s in open space pull it out and that’s it.

Work smarter, not harder

That's a facepalm moment for sure and I'm hoping I would have figured this out before I tried to silicone the baffle in place. You're right. There's no way for me to service that area. Heck, if the baffles were in place before I put the heater in, I doubt I'd even be able to get it down there. So, its looking like a smaller media compartment with the heater in the return.

If you do decide to place the heater into the return section, I would suggest having a small (like 2-4 inch tall) baffle just in case the water runs dry, so it doesn't damage and shatter both the filter return and the heater and it stays submerged at all times.

Are you saying to put this between the heater and the pump? Space is going to be super tight, so I'm not sure that's an option... unless I place the baffle at an angle.

Idk if the OP is going with a planted tank, and even then having no nitrates is only when its heavily planted as you said.... I was more directing it to the OP.

The tank is going to be lightly planted. I currently have some Java fern and I've started researching other possible plants to help take some extra nitrates out of the water. However, I wasn't really planning on making any special considerations in my sump design for a planted tank.

 

I had a DSB in my setup but it took all nitrates and my plant need a little to grow so I skipped it.

You could consider this , if you have a little space in the sump :
Another DSB - Deep Sand Bottles! -

I have a small jar with sand in the daphnia compartment and it works fine

 

Why have a sump for a 20g? I just think it's a little over done...but that's just my opinion.

I think option 2 is best, more biological the better, you can pull stuff out of it for a QT or set up a new tank. Though I would move the filter into the return bump area.

I made a sump for about 20 gallons of water in a riparium yesterday; used a plastic tub, filter sock from another sump, and a return pump.

Sumps are never a bad thing, as long as you've room.

 

Oh, I figured it might be worthwhile to also give an update on what I have done so far with my little project. I should probably post some pictures as I go along, but I haven't taken any. Oops.

I have built my PVC overflow and tested it. Its working, but I do have concerns about the weir portion and may need to tweak that in the future. I think I need add some additional holes below the water line, since when everything is flowing the water level is higher than I'm comfortable with. If I stop everything, the water level drops to match lowest holes. I bet if I slowed down the return pump flow, that it'll probably drop lower, too. I'm super paranoid about that thing clogging up and failing to keep up with return pump. However, it seemed to be keeping up with my return pump just fine when I had it running for a few minutes at the full flow rate of the pump at the head lift config similar to the final arrangement.

I've purchased the extra fittings (including a ball valve) and hose that I'll need to make a more permanent return line. I just need to get to work on that. Once I have all the plumbing figured out, then I'll get to work on actually building the sump. I'll need to cut the glass and mount the baffles. It appears I'll need to do something more in line with my Option 1 above. I think even with the two smaller chambers , I'll still have more room for filter material than I do currently with my two HOB filters. I think I might also just put some of the extra bio-balls (that I'm sure to have) into the return chamber as well. I figure it won't hurt anything.

Once I've got all the plumbing parts ready to go, then I'll cut the necessary holes in my canopy so that I can then finally finish that part of the project. I think the lid for my canopy will come later, once everything else is up and running.

I made a sump for about 20 gallons of water in a riparium yesterday; used a plastic tub, filter sock from another sump, and a return pump.

Sumps are never a bad thing, as long as you've room.

I had to look up what a riparium was. How big is that plastic tub? Is this setup only for the extra water volume? I see that you'll have some mechanical filtration with the filter socks, but is anything else going in there? Also, what's your overflow? Is the tank drilled?

I had a DSB in my setup but it took all nitrates and my plant need a little to grow so I skipped it.

You could consider this , if you have a little space in the sump :
Another DSB - Deep Sand Bottles! -

I have a small jar with sand in the daphnia compartment and it works fine

Interesting... not a whole lot of information about this out there, huh? A google search pretty much gave me that same thread as the only relevant response.

I've thought about putting some SeaChem Matrix in with the other bio-media to see if that would help with nitrates, too, but I'm not sure how it would work with this system.

 

Here is more on the topic :
Deep Sand Beds

 

Oh, I figured it might be worthwhile to also give an update on what I have done so far with my little project. I should probably post some pictures as I go along, but I haven't taken any. Oops.

I have built my PVC overflow and tested it. Its working, but I do have concerns about the weir portion and may need to tweak that in the future. I think I need add some additional holes below the water line, since when everything is flowing the water level is higher than I'm comfortable with. If I stop everything, the water level drops to match lowest holes. I bet if I slowed down the return pump flow, that it'll probably drop lower, too. I'm super paranoid about that thing clogging up and failing to keep up with return pump. However, it seemed to be keeping up with my return pump just fine when I had it running for a few minutes at the full flow rate of the pump at the head lift config similar to the final arrangement.

I've purchased the extra fittings (including a ball valve) and hose that I'll need to make a more permanent return line. I just need to get to work on that. Once I have all the plumbing figured out, then I'll get to work on actually building the sump. I'll need to cut the glass and mount the baffles. It appears I'll need to do something more in line with my Option 1 above. I think even with the two smaller chambers , I'll still have more room for filter material than I do currently with my two HOB filters. I think I might also just put some of the extra bio-balls (that I'm sure to have) into the return chamber as well. I figure it won't hurt anything.

Once I've got all the plumbing parts ready to go, then I'll cut the necessary holes in my canopy so that I can then finally finish that part of the project. I think the lid for my canopy will come later, once everything else is up and running.


I had to look up what a riparium was. How big is that plastic tub? Is this setup only for the extra water volume? I see that you'll have some mechanical filtration with the filter socks, but is anything else going in there? Also, what's your overflow? Is the tank drilled?


Interesting... not a whole lot of information about this out there, huh? A google search pretty much gave me that same thread as the only relevant response.

I've thought about putting some SeaChem Matrix in with the other bio-media to see if that would help with nitrates, too, but I'm not sure how it would work with this system.

It's an additional 20 gallons of volume. I tossed in a quarter pound of purigen; not planning on anything else.

I drilled the back glass for overflow and return - super easy.

 

This is turning into a massive headache. I now can't get my PVC overflow to actually flow. I've tried priming it the same way I did over the weekend and nothing. I'm completely submerging the whole assembly to get any water of out the piping , cap the drain and then put it into position. Remove the cap on the drain and it starts flowing and it should create the siphon. However, that's not working for me now. No flow. The only thing I haven't done is add an AquaLifter pump to keep air out of the tube. I suppose that's the next step, but that's going to be more money I'm throwing into this project. I've already got way too much invested in this project to quit, but if I can't reliably get water out of my tank I've got an issue.

This morning I started looking into drilling my tank to avoid using this sort of siphon based overflow, but that appears to open up a whole different set of issues. My idea would be to drill the back of the tank near the top, with an upturned elbow attached to a strainer box of some sort. Easy enough to build, but it appears that I'd need at least a 1" bulkhead to meet my minimum flow needs. A 1.5" or even two 1" would be better. Then it sounds like there might be an issue with noise. So, further down the rabbit hole I go.... since I'm already looking at drilling two holes, why not make it 3 and do a BeanAnimal overflow. Now we are talking overkill on a 20G.

So... time to think out load and actually layout my real requirements:
-I have a 20 gallon tank and a 5.5 gallon sump for a total potential volume of 25.5 gallons of water. Using the rule of thumb of for aquarium filter flow rate to turn over 4 times the water volume per hour, I would need a minimum flow of 102 gph, but I planned on doing better than that. In fact, my setup before undertaking this project made use of two HOB filters for ~290 gph on the same 20G tank. So, I was shooting to stay around this number.
[Edit: Actually, seeing in the sticky here that for HOBs the rule of thumb is 8-10 times the volume per hour. I was still fine with my ~290gph. Also see that its 5 times for a canister, so I'm going to assume the same for a sump. So, I'd be looking at 128gph minimum. I still like my target of 350gph.]
-According to guide I used to build my PVC overflow, it should be capable of flowing ~350gph. For reference, I built a 3/4" version of the king of DIY's

, so far without the AquaLifter.
-My return pump is a KEDSUM I bought off Amazon that's rated for 550gph. I intentionally over-sized it to overcome head losses and I have already plumbed in a ball valve to reduce the flow rate.

Hypothetically, if I were to drill my tank instead, according to my minimal research this morning a single 1" bulkhead should be capable of 350 gph. That matches my intended PVC overflow design. It would mean a simpler plumbing design and less visible pipe in the display tank. I could just as easily install a second one and I could let my return pump run free with no concern about it overpowering the overflow capacity. I would of course turn down the flow, since I know I do not that I need that much flow in a 20G tank! The second overflow would just be a failsafe. Does this sort of overflow drain come with any issue? The only thing I kept reading about was noise.

What it comes down to now is this: Do I buy the AquaLifter for my PVC overflow to see if that's truly the missing component? Or do I change gears completely and drill my tank?

I drilled the back glass for overflow and return - super easy.

Sounds like you've got some experience here. Any recommendations?

 

Sounds like you've got some experience here. Any recommendations?

I just drilled my 55G tank a few weeks ago. I ended up spending the $ on a glass-holes kit. Well worth the money!!

 

I think I have officially decided to drill my tank, even though I have been successfully running my PVC overflow for a few days now. I'm just not getting the flow rate I want at an acceptable noise rate. If I keep the flow low, the only noise I hear is a soft gurgling sound. However, if I turn up the flow, I get this:

The overflow appears to keep up, but I don't think the wife will appreciate the noise.

 

I drilled a small hole in the top of the drain and hung a long piece of fly mesh /insect net inside the drain, its very close to noiseless

We sleep right next to the tank which is 280 liter's with a 112 liters sump

 

I drilled a small hole in the top of the drain and hung a long piece of fly mesh /insect net inside the drain, its very close to noiseless

We sleep right next to the tank which is 280 liter's with a 112 liters sump

Are you proposing that hole as a solution for my gurgling problem? From your diagram, that appears to be a standpipe in bottom drilled tank. That's not going to work for me. If I drill a hole in my current plumbing, then I immediately lose my siphon and it would quickly overflow.

What I show in my video above is a PVC overflow that works with a siphon to overflow water up and over the wall of the tank without drilling. Its just not working to my satisfaction, so...

My current plan is to drill the back of the tank and use a herbie style overflow with an internal overflow box that I'll probably build.

 

No, I Realize you have another system

But maybe it could work if you put a tee on the last pipe and use the system I suggest ?

There is a sketch at #7
DIY HOB overflow/sump/filter who wants to see it? - The Planted Tank Forum

If I was to build a tank again I would definitely drill in the back and not the bottom, the one I have is great but the weir in the corner dragsdown the overall look.

Good luck with the Herbie

 

Yeah, I've decided I don't want to temp fate with the inevitable flood that is bound to happen with that PVC overflow.

There are supposedly ways to make it failsafe, but that means buying another pump to keep the tube free of air. If I'm going to spend any more money on this, I'm going to do it right.

I need to order the drill bit and bulkheads, so I can move forward with the project.

Here's to hoping I don't crack the glass...

 

As long as you cool with plenty water and don't use force you are safe

 

Just remember the word SLOW and you should be fine.

Let the circular motion of the drill cut through the glass with very little force from you.

 

If I could do it, anyone can. Except if you’re drilling tempered - then nobody can.

 

Now I'm having a crisis. I can't decide how I want to approach my overflow.... seriously need some advice. I keep reading and I'm getting a little overwhelmed... Durso, Stockman, Gurgle Buster, Herbie, Beananimal, internal, external, calflo...

Do I need multiple drains? Will just one be sufficient? Would it be reasonable to simply have a single 1" or 1.5" bulkhead with an upturned elbow in the tank for a drain? Anyone have experience with this? I'm only looking for about 300-400 gph. I just want simple and (relatively) quiet.

EDIT: So, I'm leaning towards something like this. Thoughts? (Stole the pic from the interwebs.)

External Durso

• runningslow
• Apr 19, 2018

EDIT 2: My other concern is that I'm reading that the glass on a 20G Long probably isn't as thick would be recommended for this sort of thing. I haven't tried measuring the thickness to verify that, yet. Perhaps I could reinforce the glass somehow? I'll certainly want to support the plumbing in such a way as to not put that strain on the glass.

I managed to successfully drill the tank and test fit the 1" bulkhead fittings. Next step, plumbing!

I've decided on two center drains with returns on the sides. I'm going to make the drains external dursos, like the picture I posted eariler. I wanted to have two for redundancy, considering how paranoid I was about my DIY PVC overflow.

Bonus kitty inspecting my work.

 

Great job

 

Congrats on the successful drills!

 

I'll take some pics tonight, but I had pretty roughly plumbed and flowing water last night. The dual drains easily handled the full flow rate from my pump. It was not as quiet as I hoped, but then, it wasn't really finished, either. I'm hoping I'll be able to quiet it down once its setup properly. Still, it was 100% better than the gurgling I had before.

Side note: my wife thinks I'm crazy.

This is really turning into a tank build thread. Perhaps I should start a real build thread? Hmmm....

In other news, I haven't made any more progress on the project. Life has been getting in the way. Ideally, I'd like to have this wrapped up this weekend with paint and silicone curing.

A small update, I've settled on a final (for now) plumbing arrangement. I still need to build the last few pieces for the in-tank portion of my drains and try tuning the durso standpipes to to quiet them. I think the biggest noise I'm getting is from the water entering the sump. From what I've gathered, this means that my air hole isn't big enough.

I've successfully cut the glass and siliconed my baffles in place. I need to cut a couple pieces of egg crate to support everything and then I think the sump itself will be ready to go.

After that, it should just be a matter of doing a little painting and putting the tank back together. I really should start taking pictures...

Okay, so here's an update. This tank has been up and running for about a week. I haven't taken any pics of the final product, yet, because... well, I haven't.

I have an issue. I split my return line to enter at both ends of the tank, however, it seems that I can't get water to flow from both pipes at the same time. I'm not quite sure what the issue is, since I don't recall having this problem when I testing things as I went along.

Did I do something wrong with my plumbing? In the attached picture, the return line is the clear hose that leads up to the valve. From the valve, it goes through a couple elbows to a T, that then splits horizontally to pipes that lead up over canopy at each end of the tank. When the pipe is just above the waterline, I used a 45deg elbow and then a short pipe with a 45 deg cut in that sits just below the water line. I drilled a hole in the top side of that last pipe to prevent back siphoning. Its all built from 3/4" PVC and the pump has a 3/4" outlet.

So, I'm stumped. Thinking out loud here... Maybe its not completely level and its following the path of least resistance? I'd believe that, except I've managed to get the flow to switch sides. When the outlets are submerged, perhaps the flow isn't strong enough to overcome the pressure created in the pipe on both sides and chooses one path? Is the pipe too large to support the flow from two outlets?



I haven't posted in a while about my experiment. The tank is still up and running and the inhabitants are happy. I do have some algae issues, but that should be unrelated to my plumbing problems, and it was somewhat self inflicted (I set my light timer to be on longer to encourage some algae growth while I was away for a long weekend to be certain that my new amano shrimp had something to eat.)

Anyway, as for my sump experiment, I'm running with the theory that I need to reduce the pipe diameter after the T, so I've purchased the supplies I need to make a new return with 1/2" PVC as the final pipe segments. I'm just going to completely remake it, since I want to try cutting out some of the extra elbows in the line before the T, too. I should be piecing that together at some point this weekend. We'll see how this goes.

 

Nice build .

 

Nice build .

Thanks. Its been slow going, but so far I'm happy with how its turned out. Still just a few things to tweak. I'm also already planning upgrades for the future, or at least things I'll do differently the next time I try this. I need to try to quiet it down a bit, although its still quieter than our cats' Drinkwell water fountain, so I can live with it.


I started piecing together the new 1/2" returns on Saturday, but got sidetracked by other things and didn't finish. Ultimately, I'm going to end up removing a lot of the elbows, too, which should help increase the flow, too. I'm going to try and lose all the elbows in the 3/4" section and one in each of the 1/2" sections after the T. Basically, the T is going to be the highest point and then split so that its all downhill from there into the canopy and the water. Currently, the T is lower, then each of the lines after the split has to go through another elbow to go up and over the canopy.

 

Drilling holes in the outflow pvc below the water line in sump will help to quiet it down a little.It lets bubbles out at surface instead of forcing them under water.
Also extending the out flows up a little higher and drilling a vent hole the size of rigid airline will help.
Some install the airline down the tubes and claim it helps also..
It took me forever on my last two builds ,but I don't regret taking the time to do it the best I could .

 

You really don't need to reduce the size of your pipes.

All you needed to do is stick some bushings in the end of each outlet to increase the pressure in the pipe. This will equalize the flow.

You can also just cap each one, and drill an appropriate size hole in each cap. This will allow you to have some choice.

 

Well, its a little late for that one. I didn't see your post until just now. Life has gotten in the way, so I'm not completely done with the new piping. I'm close and should have it done tonight.

It makes sense to me that simply creating a smaller orifice for the water to pass through would have the same effect on water pressure. I'm still going the hard way, because frankly I wasn't 100% happy with it anyway and I wanted to take out some of the unnecessary elbows.

 

Hey guys, getting my 180 gallon dual overflow set up and have no idea how to plan out this sump. It was previously a saltwater tank, so I’m not sure how to set it up as fresh. Brand new to running sumps so if you could give me an idea on how to setup and where to put media and everything. Also what would be a good return pump to use? I’m keeping bichirs so they will be a bit messy. I’ll attach pictures below. Thanks!

 

There are definitely going to be some videos on the web. I would use a filter sock on the return to as primary mechanical, and back it up with some fine filter floss. I'd put some kind of biological filtration after that, ceramic media, bio balls, BBQ grill lava rock (unused, of course) in bags so you can pull them easily if you need. In the large chamber, since I believe I've heard bichirs are hard on plants, I'd plant it with fast growing plants like moneywort or peacock moss (and of course light it) to help export nitrates, and heat it. Return pumps, I can't help with. I've been thinking about the freshwater sump process myself, and have the theory in my head, but not a parts list. And the sump being all clear like that makes it hard for my old eyes to see what the layout is.

 

Interesting sump .
Water comes in through two socks that go in the circles .They will be a pain to clean so get extras .
I bleach mine in washing machine...
Where does the water that has to overflow on the right [ I guess a refugium] come out ?Might add sponges there if possible at the baffle .
Look for a sponge to fit across the first baffle where water goes under after the socks. Swiss tropicals has all sizes and density or you could probably get by with 2 aquaclear 110 sponges.
My sump uses drawers with 'cut to fit' mechanical pads and then I have sponges that water is forced through.
You want to have as much water available as possible in the reservoir area so you don't have to top off daily or use an Automatic Top Off device .[ATO]

 

Interesting sump .
Water comes in through two socks that go in the circles .They will be a pain to clean so get extras .
I bleach mine in washing machine...
Where does the water that has to overflow on the right [ I guess a refugium] come out ?Might add sponges there if possible at the baffle .
Look for a sponge to fit across the first baffle where water goes under after the socks. Swiss tropicals has all sizes and density or you could probably get by with 2 aquaclear 110 sponges.
My sump uses drawers with 'cut to fit' mechanical pads and then I have sponges that water is forced through.
You want to have as much water available as possible in the reservoir area so you don't have to top off daily or use an Automatic Top Off device .[ATO]

Yeah the layout is odd to be as well. So I should just do all mechanical in the first chamber? and do biological in the open area? Is there a certain way I need to have to bio media or can I just have it laying in there in mesh bags? The refugium has me really confused lol the only part for water to enter or exit is the small overflow slots at the top, so does this mean I should have the sump filled all the way to the refugium overflows? Thanks for all the input, is there anything else I should know when setting this up?