Freshwater sump?!

bigdreams
  • #41
Eshopps 1100 overflow box with eheim compact 2000 pump is working out well for me and my requirements. That overflow box has dual drains, so you can set up a herbie style sump easily.

55 gallon tank with 29 gallon sump.
 
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AndrewJ54
  • #42
I appreciate it, and I actually saw some while browsing online but wasn't sure because of the dual drain on it but seeing as I'm going to need more flow rate then that might be a solution! Also what is a herbie style sump and what does it consist of??
 
bigdreams
  • #43
I appreciate it, and I actually saw some while browsing online but wasn't sure because of the dual drain on it but seeing as I'm going to need more flow rate then that might be a solution! Also what is a herbie style sump and what does it consist of??


Here's the link to my sump post from a few weeks back... looking back the title seems a bit click-baitish.. anyway... ignore the title...

I explained my approach in that posting in depth.. I wanted to keep my pump simple.. used Poret foam, no need to use baffles, etc. It works for me, simple and it's doing a decent job so far.

I did a LOT of research before doing a sump. Some design terms IMO you should know before designing/building your sump are: durso standpipe, herbie, and bean animal overflow designs. each named after some hobbyist's approach to the overflow question. You don't use all of them, but can choose one that works for your setup. I think the Herbie style makes the most sense for you (given what I read so far)

At a minimum read this:


1" drain pipe can move ALOT of water... and you don't want to empty your tank onto your floor by not using some sort of emergency drain line.

btw, the eShopps 1100 comes with 2 drain lines.. and 2 u-tubes.. I'm only using 1 b/c I'm at about 250 GPH flow at 3.5 feet. ... you can use both 2 u-tubes for more flow over the the tank into the back of the overflow box. (I guess what I'm saying is, you don't have to use both u-tubes if you don't need it.. or you can if you do need the full flow capacity of the overflow box). I use the overflow box as a herbie style overflow.. so I have a valve on the drain line back in the sump to control the flow... right now, its only about ~25% open I think... and the second line is completely unused (it's used in emergency only, where the water doesn't drain fast enough).

I considered the DIY PVC overflow... but thought to myself... while it may "cost more" to buy an eShopps... it's more reliable and I can see the water flowing through the u-tube... anyway, not sure if you are doing some complicated DIY PVC overflow , but those scared me b/c I couldn't see the siphon.
 
AndrewJ54
  • #44
I'm definitely going to look into the overflow situation more, and I did consider using an ordinary pvc overflow but like you it scared me because you can't see the siphon and it looked to bulky so I decided to pay for reliability and peace of mind!
 
str8flxn
  • #45
Hello, building my first sump tank for my 75 gallon freshwater tank.

Just wanted to get some advice/opinions on this.

1) what material is recommended for the dividers. I was thinking plexiglass glass as it's fairly easy to cut.

2) what kind of glue should I be using to fix the dividers in place?

3) bioballs or ceramic rings?


Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks
 
Big Red
  • #46
Glass or acrylic works best. PlexI bows to much. I prefer glass baffles. 100 % silicone let it cure for 72 hrs before getting wet. As for biomedia its preference and how much you plan to spend. bio balls are expensive but I look good, ceramic rings are pricey but clog easier than bio balls. Its easy to rinse though. I use lava rock which is extremely cheap and does the same as rings and bio balls. It can clog as well if not rinsed.
 
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str8flxn
  • #47
What about the adhesive for the piping?

Assume I can't just use the regular PVC cement adhesive. Do I use the same silicone I use for the dividers?
 
MikeRad89
  • #48
You can use normal cement. Make sure it's fully cured before running water through it.
 
str8flxn
  • #49
If I wanted to paint the PVC pipe black as my background is black, what kind of paint/spray paint should I use?
 
Big Red
  • #50
Internal krylon fusion

External acrylic paint or krylon.
 
Tiny_Tanganyikans
  • #51
I use acrylic for my sump and fuge with some glass panels inside, I've laid probably miles of plumbing with pvc cement and purple primer. For media whatever you want, plastic scrubbies and lava rock work just fine for me.


Home depot sells thin acrylic sheets for cheap that work great for dividers and cut easily
 
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str8flxn
  • #52
I'll check my local hardware store. I'm from a tiny island in the caribbean. So my options are pretty limited. But I'll do some searching. Thanks guys
 
Tiny_Tanganyikans
  • #53
I'll check my local hardware store. I'm from a tiny island in the caribbean. So my options are pretty limited. But I'll do some searching. Thanks guys
Which island? If its st thomas you may be in luck.

I'm not sure what's available locally but there has to be thick acrylic available, it's used for so many things. It may need to be specially ordered but you can make so many things with it that financially it's worth it.

Worst case scenario you can always use another fish tank or even a plastic storage bin. My first sump was a storage bin until I was able to build a proper one.

Plexiglass IS acrylic though typically plexiglass is referring the thin 1/4" or thinner sheets. Typically this is too thin for anything of size as it will bow or can be shattered if pressure is put on it the wrong way.

It can work if you layer it and brace it significantly but it would be much easier just to purchase thicker acrylic.

Personally I don't like working with glass because locally its more expensive, ots less forgiving and I find it to be not as easy to build aquariums with compared to acrylic. I also hate cutting it.

I use the thin plexiglass/acrylic for dividers, hoods, overflows, hang-on-acclimation/breeding chambers. But I wouldnt use it for anything of size.

My 300 gallon aquarium has a 125 sump/fuge made of 3/4" acrylic. Out of the two sheets I made 6 aquariums and two sumps, If I had purchased the same size aquariums it would of been nearly 10x the cost.

Anyhow good luck, let us know if you need any more suggestions
 
str8flxn
  • #54
Which island? If its st thomas you may be in luck.

I'm not sure what's available locally but there has to be thick acrylic available, it's used for so many things. It may need to be specially ordered but you can make so many things with it that financially it's worth it.

Worst case scenario you can always use another fish tank or even a plastic storage bin. My first sump was a storage bin until I was able to build a proper one.

Plexiglass IS acrylic though typically plexiglass is referring the thin 1/4" or thinner sheets. Typically this is too thin for anything of size as it will bow or can be shattered if pressure is put on it the wrong way.

It can work if you layer it and brace it significantly but it would be much easier just to purchase thicker acrylic.

Personally I don't like working with glass because locally its more expensive, ots less forgiving and I find it to be not as easy to build aquariums with compared to acrylic. I also hate cutting it.

I use the thin plexiglass/acrylic for dividers, hoods, overflows, hang-on-acclimation/breeding chambers. But I wouldnt use it for anything of size.

My 300 gallon aquarium has a 125 sump/fuge made of 3/4" acrylic. Out of the two sheets I made 6 aquariums and two sumps, If I had purchased the same size aquariums it would of been nearly 10x the cost.

Anyhow good luck, let us know if you need any more suggestions
Thanks. This is more experimental than necessary. I have a 15 gallon old glass tank that I will be using as a sump for my 75 gallon tank. So the dividers is what I'm referring to as to what material to use. I have leftover plexiglass that's why I was goin to use it. And with an area less than 12"x12", bowing shouldn't be a problem. Right?
 
Tiny_Tanganyikans
  • #55
Thanks. This is more experimental than necessary. I have a 15 gallon old glass tank that I will be using as a sump for my 75 gallon tank. So the dividers is what I'm referring to as to what material to use. I have leftover plexiglass that's why I was goin to use it. And with an area less than 12"x12", bowing shouldn't be a problem. Right?
Hard to say they bow rather easily when thin, adhereing a brace to it will keep it stiff
 
str8flxn
  • #56
Hard to say they bow rather easily when thin, adhereing a brace to it will keep it stiff
Yea good idea. I'll brace it just to be safe.

In terms of spacing for the dividers. Any recommendations? Like is there a rule of thumb for ratio of each chamber and dimensions off the top and bottom for it to flow to the next chamber?

Thanks


6e60cc093684d3912b7dbf5e2b24de0b.jpg

This was what I had in mind. Any advice or critisism is welcomed.
 
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jlm418
  • #57
Yea good idea. I'll brace it just to be safe.

In terms of spacing for the dividers. Any recommendations? Like is there a rule of thumb for ratio of each chamber and dimensions off the top and bottom for it to flow to the next chamber?

Thanks
You shouldn't need to brace the dividers since there will be water on both sides of it
 
Tiny_Tanganyikans
  • #58
You shouldn't need to brace the dividers since there will be water on both sides of it
You wouldn't think so but they naturally bend especially with media pressed against it.
 
toustous
  • #59
Don't run your first, 3rd baffle all the way to the top, if your "prefilter" or media plogs and becomes to slow, you want to be able to split over it rather then out of your tank.

This is unlikely, but can happen, you lose nothing by having your baffle start down an inch. This also lets you run pip/wires potentiall inside the rI'm of the tank rather then above.
 
Tiny_Tanganyikans
  • #60

6e60cc093684d3912b7dbf5e2b24de0b.jpg

This was what I had in mind. Any advice or critisism is welcomed.
That looks fine, really it depends on the media. For example if you were using a fluidized media the chamber would have to be significantly larger. But if you're using bio balls/rings/ceramic/lava rock etc it really doesn't matter too much, as long as it can hold enough to efficiently filter your aquarium.

The way my sump is set up, I run a square of 30ppI to 40ppI poret foam in between chambers, doubles as mechanical and bio media. Some foam or polyfil in your intake chamber to prefilter will be sufficient but I pack mine full of media since I have very high flow rate pumps and a heavy stocking
 
str8flxn
  • #61
Thanks for all the advice guys. Really appreciate it
 
ounderfla69
  • #62
I think the 15 gallon tank is too small of a sump, you can not use the full 15 gallons because you need space if you lose power some water will drain into the sump so you need to account for that. You should have a sump 30-40% of the main tank. The smallest I would go on a 75 gallon tank is a 29 gallon sump with about the highest baffle no more then 3 inches from the top. If your looking for cheap but very effective is a DIY trickle sump using a cheap plastic storage container and Rubbermaid tote. As for baffle material you can get glass cut at lowe's pretty cheap and will work fine. If your using acrylic you need to use thicker or it will bow especially where one baffle is higher the the next. To bond acrylic to glass the make a special silicone that is made for acrylic to glass. For the pipes coming down it is easier to use reinforced vinyl tubing. PVC is used for neater but requires a lot of measuring and trial and error. To bond PVC just use the PVC glue it is safe when cured.
 
str8flxn
  • #63
Like I said it's just experimental. So I'll leave my current filter running as well.
 
str8flxn
  • #64
Another question. What do you'll suggest on how to get water from my display tank to the sump without drilling holes. All I seen was to have a overflow box. Is that really the only way?

Doesn't the water pump naturally pull the water from the tank?

Sorry that may be a dumb question but I figure it would work like the Python gravel vac.
 
str8flxn
  • #65
Anddd what size pump and pipe.

75g display tank and 15 gallon sump
 
ounderfla69
  • #66
If you don't want to drill the you need an external overflow box, I suggest a life reef overflow. You don't pump water out of the tank, the flow is determined by the size of the overflow. You should get a DC pump as its adjustable and you need to regulate the pump flow to the overflow. The life reef overflow doesn't break the siphon in a power outage, so when the power comes back on the main tank won't overflow. I still think 15 gallon is too small since you probably can only use about 10 gallons. 3/4in pipe should be fine.
 
minervalong
  • #67
Hey all,

I have a 30 gallon (36x12x16) freshwater that I am going to aquascape, I have been trying to figure out a way to hide all of the equipment so as not to ruin the effect. It occurred to me that with the $ a gallon sale coming up, I could get a spare tank and link the two so that the small tank becomes a sump with all of the equipment in it. Does this work?

How is the flow rate figured for filtering? By the filter I put in the sump or by how much actually goes through the tank?

Should I go with a 5 or 10 gallon? One of the calculators said I would need 3.7g sump, but I think bigger is better right?

It will have to sit on the bar on the same level as the 30g. I understand that the return and the overflow (hope I am using those terms correctly) should be on opposite ends.

Do I need two pumps or powerheads, one for getting the water to the sump and one for return?

My hubs is superparanoid about floods, so this needs to be simple and with the most failsafes I can get.

Thanks for the help, I've been reading but concrete answers by experienced folks is what I rely on most.
 
tyguy7760
  • #68
I am no sump expert...so hopefully others will chime in. But typically a sump is underneath the tank and regardless only calls for one pump. The pump will be wherever the water needs to be lifted out which is usually in a sump underneath while the overflow just, for lack of a better term, takes the excess water out of the tank and gravity takes it down to the sump. Some sumps have been constructed for overhead and in that case many times the pump is in the tank itself and gravity allows the water to return to the tank.

As for the size of the sump, it's up to you. But I'd do at least a 10 gallon.
 
minervalong
  • #69
I am no sump expert...so hopefully others will chime in. But typically a sump is underneath the tank and regardless only calls for one pump. The pump will be wherever the water needs to be lifted out which is usually in a sump underneath while the overflow just, for lack of a better term, takes the excess water out of the tank and gravity takes it down to the sump. Some sumps have been constructed for overhead and in that case many times the pump is in the tank itself and gravity allows the water to return to the tank.

As for the size of the sump, it's up to you. But I'd do at least a 10 gallon.

Thanks Tyguy,
When starting anything new, I always read as much as I can and for some reason my brain starts churning out ideas lol. I'm not much of an artist so hiding the equipment has been a flit from one idea to another.
While I was reading up on filters, of course a filtering sump came up and woot woot, a way to hide equipment!
Now I just need to design one but you can't do that without knowing the mechanics.
Thanks for the outline!
 
Florian Pellet
  • #70
If your tank isn't drilled, you will have to add an overflow box, which isn't the prettiest.

Another way to hide all the equipment is to just have everything inline: you can add heater, reactors, pumps, CO2 injection... All of that inline, wherever your filter is. Of course, that means having a canister filter. In this case, the only things in your tank are the inflow and the return pipes. And Lily glass pipes are pretty discrete.

What many aquascapers do is that they put the tubing going to and from the tank on the side so that when you look at your tank from the front, you don't see it. You could also have a colored or frosted background.
 
minervalong
  • #71
If your tank isn't drilled, you will have to add an overflow box, which isn't the prettiest.

Another way to hide all the equipment is to just have everything inline: you can add heater, reactors, pumps, CO2 injection... All of that inline, wherever your filter is. Of course, that means having a canister filter. In this case, the only things in your tank are the inflow and the return pipes. And Lily glass pipes are pretty discrete.

What many aquascapers do is that they put the tubing going to and from the tank on the side so that when you look at your tank from the front, you don't see it. You could also have a colored or frosted background.


Oh wow Florian, I see that you are an aquascaper yourself. My goal is to quietly slip into the world I build without having things jar the vision so to speak.

Right now a canister filter is out of the question, money and rowdy four legged beasts and a hubs who is superparanoid about floods are the factors here lol. So that means it all has to link to the main tank.

My daughter is a painter, so she is going to paint my backgrounds for me on canvas to attach to the backs and side so that means at least two pipes will have to go into the tank, an overflow and a return, but I was thinking about using lily pipes or the nearest equivalent for those and I think I can put those either behind a castle turret or a tall plant.

Just getting started on this idea and all input is helpful, great idea to put everything on one end, maybe she could paint me a matching canvas to extend from the front corner and hide everything. See how the mind just flits? lol

Thanks for the help.
 
Florian Pellet
  • #72
Since there is flood paranoia in the air, I'm assuming drilling your own tank isn't the preferred method. Then for a sump you need an overflow box. It's something that looks like this: link to aliexpress. It's going to cost you about $50 if you're lucky. Plus $30 for a sump tank, and $20 for a pump. And then beyond that, you'll be able to use "cheap" equipment since it doesn't have to specifically fit your canister or be inline (like a basic heater is maybe $20 and an inline heater would most likely be $50).

The problem with overflow boxes is that they rely on the principle of "connected vessels" and if flow is too slow, it's easy for bubbles to get stuck on top and eventually unconnect the two sides of the box. If this happens, you only have very little time before there is a flood. On the other hand, if the flow is too fast, the slightest blockage (snails, dead plant, bubbles) is a flood risk.

However, one of the best canister there is for the size of tank you have is (according to me) the Eheim 350. It's $130 on amazon. And it's probably the most flood-proof method.
 
tyguy7760
  • #73
canisters should be less of a flood concern than a sump IMO

Look up king of diy over flows. He has a basic one and a more advanced one. TO me these are better than the commercially made overflows...at least the advanced one is.
 
minervalong
  • #74
Since there is flood paranoia in the air, I'm assuming drilling your own tank isn't the preferred method. Then for a sump you need an overflow box. It's something that looks like this: link to aliexpress. It's going to cost you about $50 if you're lucky. Plus $30 for a sump tank, and $20 for a pump. And then beyond that, you'll be able to use "cheap" equipment since it doesn't have to specifically fit your canister or be inline (like a basic heater is maybe $20 and an inline heater would most likely be $50).

The problem with overflow boxes is that they rely on the principle of "connected vessels" and if flow is too slow, it's easy for bubbles to get stuck on top and eventually unconnect the two sides of the box. If this happens, you only have very little time before there is a flood. On the other hand, if the flow is too fast, the slightest blockage (snails, dead plant, bubbles) is a flood risk.

However, one of the best canister there is for the size of tank you have is (according to me) the Eheim 350. It's $130 on amazon. And it's probably the most flood-proof method.

Well that explains a few things lol. I plan on using a 10 gallon for the sump, will buy it at the $ a g sale next week. When I bought the 30, a lot of stuff came with, a couple of air pumps, a couple of water pumps and a powerhead, and a heater, so got those. When I had a bit of a problem at the LFS, I ended up with an extra heater ( I love bonus things lol) so got that. So basically what I am gonna have to lay out for is the overflow box.

I think I will save up for that canister, after everything is in place a while, hubs won't notice a replacement. He doesn't like anything he doesn't understand and it takes a bit of reading to wrap your head around how these things work. He's not much on water theory lol.

Thanks again, it is nice to be led in the right direction.

canisters should be less of a flood concern than a sump IMO

Look up king of diy over flows. He has a basic one and a more advanced one. TO me these are better than the commercially made overflows...at least the advanced one is.

I love that guy. Am watching it now. So maybe a weir instead of a box, I can make that look like a castle turret lol.
 
bigdreams
  • #75
Just saw this thread... Am I to late to the party

I added a sump to my heavily planted 55 gallon Freshwater tank. Been going strong 1.5 yrs now. My signature has links to my tank and sump build out. Happy to help if you still need advice . This thread is pretty old so let me know.
 
Florian Pellet
  • #76
Just saw this thread... Am I to late to the party

I added a sump to my heavily planted 55 gallon Freshwater tank. Been going strong 1.5 yrs now. My signature has links to my tank and sump build out. Happy to help if you still need advice . This thread is pretty old so let me know.
Well, I just set up a new 53G tank (see thread here) and the stand definitely has the space for a sump! What uses do you have for it? Is it mainly about increasing water volume?
 
bigdreams
  • #77
Increases water volume and provides huge amount of filtration capacity. More economical than canisters for larger tanks. At 55 gallons probably a nice to have rather than a need to have It also provides water surface skimming . Also your water level stays constant in the main tank while sump water level drops due to evaporation.

With your paludarium setup it probably won't make sense to use a sump unless you are comfortable drilling your tank and putting in bulkheads for the overflow.
 
junebug
  • #78
Haha funny I just saw this. I have a 40 gal with a 20 sump that will be a paludarium when it's done. It's nice because I can keep the flow low (it's for wild bettas) while increasing the water volume, and if I want to, I can add all sorts of media bags to the sump without effecting the look of the tank.

The main thing for the return will be the height rating for whatever pump you get. It needs to push water up, so make sure it's rated for the specific height you need, and then add a few feet just to be sure. I'm pretty sure my pump is rated at about 400gph but the flow is nice and slow in the tank.
 
Florian Pellet
  • #79
Well drilling the tank definitely isn't a problem. But if there's no major advantage, and since I already have a canister laying around, I don't think I'll do it.
 
runningslow
  • #80
I've posted in another thread about my thoughts on adding a sump to my Freshwater 20G long.

Well, I'm planning to start building it this weekend and I'd love to get some feedback on my designs and I thought this subforum would be a better place to ask.

I've purchased a 5.5G tank to serve as the sump and some glass I'm going to cut to serve as baffles. I'm planning to use the filter foam and media from my established AquaClear 50. As well as some additional media from a second AC50 I have in my closet and fill up the rest of bio media compartment with bioballs.

I've also purchased my return pump and I've started construction of my DIY PVC overflow. I bought a pump rated for 550gph, but I know there will be some head loss. If the flow is still too much for my overflow, then I've got a few ideas on how to fix that: reduce flow with ball valve, build a new overflow with larger pipe, or add a second overflow. It would probably easiest to just reduce flow with a valve, especially since based on the information I've seen about overflow design, my overflow should have more than sufficient flow capacity for my tank.

One issue I'm seeing with such a small sump is the size of the heater I plan to put in there. It was cheap house-brand heater that I got from Pet Supplies Plus, when my Aqueon heater crapped out on me. (Side note: I think the PS+ heater has lasted me longer than Aqueon had). It will most certainly have to be installed on the bottom at an angle. I do have two smaller Tetra HT10s, but they're both preset temps and I want the ability to adjust it, so those are out. So, because of the heater, I've got two basic design ideas for the layout of my sump. I'm currently leaning towards option 2, since it'll give me a larger bio media compartment and I believe an overall higher total volume.

Remember this is a 5.5G Tank with total outside dimensions of 16.25"L x 8.375"W x 10.5"H.

Option 1: Heater in a large return compartment.

sump1.PNG

Option 2: Heater below the filter media with a larger bio media compartment.

sump2.PNG

Future upgrades to this whole setup would be an overflow switch to kill the pump in case the overflow clogs or loses siphon and probably a float switch to kill the pump if the water level gets too low in the return compartment to save the pump from running dry. Depending on how often I need to top off the sump, I may also consider some sort of automatic top off system at least for the times when we go out of town.

Any thoughts? I'm mostly interested in feedback on my sump layout options, but other feedback is welcome, too.
 

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