Fishless Cycling 20gl

I don't know where that thread is from, but not true at all about the bottled ammonia. People cycle with TSS and ammonia all the time here on the forum with no issues. Bottled ammonia won't kill the bacteria though too high levels of ammonia can hinder the cycle just like too many fish putting out too much ammonia can do the same thing.

The only thing off with water chemistry initially is the ammonia as it comes housed in an ammonium solution so will give you a false higher ammonia reading for a few days.

I think it was from this forum, I'll see if I can find it again.

Found it. from Mamajin fishlore vip.
HowTo: Cycling Your Tank With Tetra Safe Start

 

Yeah, I would not use that one, I'd use one of the sticked posts in the nitrogen cycle forum like these. This first one is directly from Tetras mouth but mostly talks about fish-in cycling. Second one is the one I wrote

Since we have so many questions about how to use Tetra SafeStart an e-mail was sent to them with...

Fishless Cycling with Ammonia and a Bacterial Additive: When cycling your aquarium you are...

 

Yay Some changes on tonight's water test

ammonia - 0.25ppm
nitrite - 0.5ppm

What do you think CindiL? Should we add anything at this point?

 

Great!

And nope, not tonight. Let's see where things are tomorrow night ok?

 

Sounds good. Thanks!!!

I've been unable to resist testing morning and night for the past few days. Here are this mornings results, roughly 13 hours after last night's test.

ammonia - 0ppm
nitrite - 0.25ppm

Is it time yet CindiL? From what I've learned I feel I should bring ammonia back up to 1ppm

Edit: I have gained much knowledge from reading Cindi's threads. The Fishless Cycling w/Bacterial Additives thread in particular. Added pure ammonia to bring levels back to 1ppm. I'm sorry for all the hand holding I've been asking for. Guess I lost my confidence when Stability didn't work in this tank. I am so grateful for all the help I've received from from all of you on this fishy forum

 

Yes, that's fine that you re-dosed it to 1

 

Less than 24 hours after yesterday's ammonia dose..

Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrites - 2ppm

woot, woot

It's working JRS. I highly recommend the following instructions in the post below

Ammonia Instructions when Cycling with TSS+ or other Bacterial Starter

 

The nitrite conversion time should get faster now. Wait for nitrites to drop and then re-dose again until the cycle is handling both is 24 hours.

 

Less than 24 hours after yesterday's ammonia dose..

Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrites - 2ppm

woot, woot

It's working JRS. I highly recommend the following instructions in the post below

Ammonia Instructions when Cycling with TSS+ or other Bacterial Starter

Oh yes I thought I saw this earlier. Looks like you will be there soon!

 

Tonight's test, 12 hours after last posting of test results...

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 60ppm

So happy! I've dosed ammonia back to 1ppm for tonight and if I get 0 ammonia & 0 nitrites in 24 hours then I will dose ammonia to 2ppm.

 

This is only 5 days after adding TSS+, but perhaps I already had a little something going on from my previous doses of Stability in the first couple of weeks of this cycle.

 

This is only 5 days after adding TSS+, but perhaps I already had a little something going on from my previous doses of Stability in the first couple of weeks of this cycle.

I am hoping I will have the same result. I think the stability helps and with patience was probably enough, but I don't have that much patience. I will let you know how mine is doing also. Thanks.

 

Agreed , patience is not my strong point. I think in some tanks Stability may have worked a little quicker, as I've read many stories of success with it. I'll likely still use it when adding new fish, so I'm not sorry I bought it. SeaChem is a great brand IMO.

Please do let me know how you're getting along

 

Agreed , patience is not my strong point. I think in some tanks Stability may have worked a little quicker, as I've read many stories of success with it. I'll likely still use it when adding new fish, so I'm not sorry I bought it. SeaChem is a great brand IMO.

Please do let me know how you're getting along

stella1979 I think it is making progess. I had accidentally dosed to 2 ppm on Thursday bit since from what I have read that isn't too high, I left it alone. I also added the bottle of SST+. Last night I tested and took these pictures. I think the ammonia is somewhere between 1 and 2. I have such a hard time reading them. The nitrates are definitely up there. As far as the nitrites, I tested the tap water on the left and though the tank water on right isn't registerinf much you can see that there are some nitrites. Do you know if I just let the nitrates keep getting higher or do I need to do a water change at some point?

Trying to be patient. Would love to get a couple of fish in there so when my troubled 20 gallon is stabile and ready for some new friends they will done QT.

 

So, I have two testing results to share. Dosed ammonia to 1ppm a day and a half ago...

24 hours after ammonia, we weren't quite there yet...
Ammonia - .25ppm
Nitrites - 1.5ppm

36 hours after ammonia...
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrites 0ppm

I guess we'll dose the ammonia back to 1ppm and hope that we can hit that 24 hour conversion mark in the next day or two

JRS It looks to me like you are correct about your ammonia, maybe 1.5ppm? You do not have a readable level of nitrItes yet, but that took a few days in my own experience. The instructions I've been following say that you do not need to worry about about a water change unless nitrItes get over 4ppm, or nitrAtes over 100ppm. I guess levels that high might stall your cycle. The nitrAte test is hard to read for me too Your test looks closer to an orange-y red more than the brick red that I would expect them to be if they were over 80ppm. That's just my best guess though. Hope we can get more experienced advice on that

 

Looks like you are so close. Do you know what fish you are going to put in when it is fully cycled?

The nitrAte test is hard to read for me too Your test looks closer to an orange-y red more than the brick red that I would expect them to be if they were over 80ppm. That's just my best guess though.

I agree on the color of the nitrate test too. Maybe I will test it tomorrow using the 50/50 trick with tap water and then double it, just to make sure it isn't over 100.

 

Yes, we hope we can keep the fish my son so desperately wants... Cardinal Tetras & male Guppies. They are beautiful fish but I'm a little nervous about the tetras, they're known to be delicate We'll do our best

The dilution test sounds like the best thing to do. Be sure to test the tap by itself if you haven't already, it may contain nitrates by itself. Mine does, but you can do the dilution test with distilled or RO water if your tap contains nitrates. The dilution test may also come in handy later. Nitrite levels can be hard to read as they get high as well.

 

That sounds nice. I have heard neons are not that easy and I am guessing Cardinals are similar. Good luck I am sure you can do it with all this great assistance.

Luckily our water has no ammonia, nitrite or nitrates - at least so far. I have check several times. I do have distilled water, so I may try and use that anyway just to be sure.

 

Yes, we hope we can keep the fish my son so desperately wants... Cardinal Tetras & male Guppies. They are beautiful fish but I'm a little nervous about the tetras, they're known to be delicate We'll do our best

Just an FYI that guppies need very hard, alkaline water to survive. Do you know what your GH is? General hardness. I can't remember if you tested that earlier.

Also thought I'd mention that my rummy nose tetras have been quite hardy for me.

 

Thanks for the info CindiL I haven't used the GH test in a little while but just used the TDS meter, got 325. I think that's good for the guppies, maybe not so much for the tetras. My boy has been dead set on neons for a very long time. We're going with the cardinals because the guppies prefer higher temps than the neons do. We're kind of on the fence about acclimation, there are many who argue that a slow acclimation is actually harder for the fish, but there are also many that have said that a slow acclimation is best for these delicate tetras. We are in luck that we have a local breeder that we can get all of our fish from, but I would not trust them with advice.

So, this morning we dosed ammonia to 2ppm. Just did tonight's testing and got

Ammonia - .5
Nitrites - 3 or 4ppm
Didn't test nitrates tonight. This morning before the ammonia dose they were around 40ppm, maybe higher. I find the nitrates hard to read, even when doing the dilution test

What do you think of these numbers? It's only been 11 hours since we dosed the ammonia.

 

HI again CindiL It's so great of you to be of such help to us

I was reading another thread where you wrote a bit about preventative medications in QT. Also, I think I saw somewhere that you de-worm all your tanks every 6-12 months? Can you give me more info on this, or direct me to a good thread about preventative medicating in QT's? I'm still a newb with much of this stuff and would be happy to follow a more experienced keeper's routine (as in, just tell me what to get.)

 

This morning's test results, 24 hours after dosing ammonia to 2ppm

Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 3, maybe 4ppm
Nitrates - 80ppm, could be a bit higher or lower but coloration is not dark red.

I think a WC may be in order soon.

 

I'd wait and see if it drops.

 

(as in, just tell me what to get.)

That made me laugh! I needed that! Thanks.

 

Cardinal tetras are much hardier than their cousin neon tetras.

 

Thanks AngelTheGypsy! I am being patient and will not do a WC today, but I worry too much. I guess I'm just wondering about stalling the cycle with high nitrites. I've read and read Cindi's thread about Fishless Cycling w/Bacterial additives and I'm just wondering how long I let the nitrites sit at 4. At least a few days I'm sure

 

Do the half test to get a better idea of where they are.

 

Did that last night and still wasn't sure Gonna test it again. I'm probably obsessing a bit.

 

I obsessed too. I found it helped if I held the test tube right next to the color chart, against the paper, held it in the light so there are no shadows, then looked at it with my phones camera. Lol

 

I do it that way too, except I hold the test, paper & chart under a lampshade with a bright bulb, get the angle just right so there are no shadows.... Lol

 

If you figure out they're "really" at 4 then I'd do a water change tomorrow if they haven't dropped by then.

I was reading another thread where you wrote a bit about preventative medications in QT. Also, I think I saw somewhere that you de-worm all your tanks every 6-12 months? I'm still a newb with much of this stuff and would be happy to follow a more experienced keeper's routine (as in, just tell me what to get.)

This is not a must-do, this is just a cindi-do lol. I use HikarI Prazi-pro on my tanks at least twice a year. I think of it like using a flea treatment for a dog or cat which I wouldn't skip. Like them, pretty much all fish have flukes not to mention the internal worms they can get and bring into your tank. I treat all new fish no matter what. After that, if I see any rubbing, flicking on the plants etc, or thick white poop as time goes on I treat again. It is a gentle medicine and safe for inverts too.

Even if you quarantine, you'll still be spreading these types of bugs by not treating proactively. I do a couple of weekly doses usually initially.

 

Thanks again CindiL. I will do the same in QT, better to be safe than sorry.

 

Naturally, as we get closer to a cycled tank we are thinking more about the fish. I am particularly worried about NTD. Read somewhere that NTD is treatable if medication is provided during the protozoan stage. Will PraziPro help with that?

Is PraziPro the only medication that you use on new fish? I ask because I saw a video where an fs owner demonstrated using API General Cure, Erythromycin & Ich X on all his new fish, stating that this guaranteed he was selling healthy fish to his customers. Seems a little heavy handed, but after looking into these medications a bit I realized that PraziPro might be used instead of Gen Cure at this point. As far as the Erythromycin, do you find it helpful or necessary to use antibiotics as a preventative measure? Finally, ich medicine, we have Rid Ich Plus on hand after needing it for our goldie. It contains malachite green, which I've learned to be dangerous for tetras, livebearers & inverts. Can you recommend another Ich treatment to have on hand for our community tank? When goldie got ich I ran out to Petco and got the only treatment I could find, some herbal stuff that didn't work, hence the Ric Ich after I started freaking out! I'd like to be better prepared next time around.

Thank you, thank you, thank you CindiL , your help is invaluable.

 

Tonight's test results... 48 hours after dosing ammonia to 2ppm. Doing a water change to lower nitrates and dosing ammonia again

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - >100

 

That is awesome!

I have an update - this morning my ammonia was about 1.0 and now it is .25! I may get to dose more ammonia soon!

BTW - I have been using CindiL's cycling with Safestart instructions. I agree it is a good one to follow.

 

Naturally, as we get closer to a cycled tank we are thinking more about the fish. I am particularly worried about NTD. Read somewhere that NTD is treatable if medication is provided during the protozoan stage. Will PraziPro help with that?

Is PraziPro the only medication that you use on new fish? I ask because I saw a video where an fs owner demonstrated using API General Cure, Erythromycin & Ich X on all his new fish, stating that this guaranteed he was selling healthy fish to his customers. Seems a little heavy handed, but after looking into these medications a bit I realized that PraziPro might be used instead of Gen Cure at this point. As far as the Erythromycin, do you find it helpful or necessary to use antibiotics as a preventative measure?

The thing with NTD is you don't know your fish have it until its possibly too late. Yes, I think it can be prevented in the very early stages of the disease but by the time you see symptoms its too late. You'd have to decide to treat in quarantine perhaps.
No, Prazipro won't help with Protozoa as much as flukes, roundworms, tapeworms and tubellarians. It works really well for intestinal worms as well as skin and gill flukes that so many fish have.

So, basically this guy on the video used, praziquantel, metronidazole, erythromycin, malachite green and acriflavine on his fish.
Yes, you're right, you can use prazI pro instead of general cure, its much less expensive using prazI pro also. I would never proactively treat with erythromycin honestly as it treats gram positive bacteria. The majority of bacterial fish diseases are gram negative. I can think of only a couple that are gram positive such as streptococcus and false neon tetra disease. Also, gram positive meds are really tough on your bio-filter and will kill off the cycle fast giving you a double whammy with sickness and then having to re-cycle.

Malachite green should be fine for the majority of fish including live bearers and tetras at a regular dosage. I'm not sure all of the ingredients in ich-x? I might try it at a half dose first if I thought I had sensitive fish and also inverts don't tolerate it well at all.

I do really like the combination of malachite green and methylene blue in a fish bath while acclimating new fish. HikarI Betta Revive has this combo plus neomycin in it which is good for external injuries, fin rot. A few drops in their water while acclimating them can really help rid them of parasites, fungus, bacteria etc if they're left in there for 30-60 minutes.

 

OK, I think I've got an idea about what can be done for proactive treatment in our situation.

1. Acclimate tetras in bag with a few drops of Betta Revive, adding tank water to bag in small amounts over the course of 1 - 2 hours. Slow acclimation is best with these guys, but is it ok for them to be in the revive bath for over an hour? Since these will be the first fish in our new tank we will put them straight into the 20 gallon and dose with PraziPro.

2. A few weeks later, bag acclimate the guppies like above with Revive and tank water. After 30-60 min., they can go in our 5 gallon QT with PraziPro.

Does this sound like a good preventative treatment plan for new fish?

 

If I'm going to do an acclimation over an hour I generally put them into a container with their store water and then every 5 minutes I add some water from the main tank.

In a bath for 60 minutes you can use 8 drops betta revive for 1/2g water. So, as you add more water you can add more betta revive up to that total. They're meant to be in it at regular strength for 5 days so having it at double strength in a bath will be just fine. Plus, methylene blue actually helps O2 transfer and any ammonia or nitrite poisoning they may have been subject to in shipping or at the store.

 

Tonight's test, 24 hours after dosing ammonia to 2ppm

Ammonia 0
Nitrite .75
Nitrate 80ppm

 

Getting closer!