Fishless Cycling 20gl

HI fishy friends,

I am currently cycling a 20gL. My apologies in advance for this long post. I want you to know how things went from the beginning so I can get the best advice.

Day 1 - set up with sand, stones, driftwood & fake plants. Set up filter with half lightly used and half new media. Filter runs at 140GPH. Added Stability (first day, double dose) and threw in a few flakes. Don't have the heater yet, tank stays at 75°F without it.

Days 2 - 6 Dosed with Stability (single dose), added a flake or two twice during this time. Tested on days 4 & 6 for ammonia and nitrites and got 0 for both.

Day 7 - got impatient and decided to start dosing with pure ammonia, brought level to 3ppm

Day 8 - ammonia down to 2ppm, nitrites at .25ppm, nitrAtes at 10-20ppm.

Days 9 - 12 ammonia 1ppm, nitrites .5ppm, nitrates 10-20ppm

Day 13 - ammonia .25ppm, nitrites .5ppm, nitrates 10-20ppm. Added more pure ammonia to bring level up to 3ppm. Heater arrived, tank now at 78°F

Day 14 - 19(today) ammonia 3ppm nitrites .5ppm, nitrates 10-20ppm

I know this is a waiting game but I'm starting to worry something has gone wrong. After the initial dose of ammonia the levels dropped slowly over 5 days. I'm now 7 days after the second ammonia dose and nothing has changed. For the past few days I have removed the lid for about 12 hours a day, hoping for better gas exchange to oxygenate the water. Just today I turned the heater to 83°F hoping a warm environment will help.

I'm trying to be patient but I'm starting to worry. Have things stalled? The used media we added in the beginning was only in our old tank for 3 weeks but I think this is what is giving me nitrate readings already. Any ideas on speeding things along, or should I just stop testing everyday to make me worry less? CindiL I would love to hear your thoughts, you're posts have been so helpful already

 

From what I understood by people on this forum, you'll want to wait until both ammonia and nitrites are 0-0.25 before dosing ammonia again

So you'd want to do water changes to reduce the levels and then redose ammonia and wait until both ammonia and nitrites drop to 0 before redosing

 

Hi, thanks for all the details, I would do at least a 50% water change to bring ammonia back down to close 1.0 and continue dosing stability. Lets see where you are 24 hours after that.

 

Thanks for your input knameI . I've seen cycling recommended that way too, as well as many others. After days of reading I thought I should go with this method.



The only other think I can think to mention is that the driftwood is growing lot of that white filmy stuff, should I scrub it?

Thanks CindiL , I will try that We stopped dosing Stability because we thought it was making the tank cloudy. The main reason though is because the hubby got really worried about using a starter after reading that it could cause a crash when you've stopped it using it and add fish. I am eager to follow good advice, but have you ever heard of Stability causing something like that?

 

Its normal for them to make the tank cloudy. If you use a product like stability or tetra safe start plus or some others this (losing a cycle) will not happen. Where you see issues like that is by adding in products that eat up organics like Stress Zyme and some other sludge decomposers.

Here is my sticky on fishless cycling and should help answer many questions
Fishless Cycling with Ammonia and a Bacterial Additive: When cycling your aquarium you are...

 

HI again I followed your advice on Tuesday CindiL For 4 days my tank had 1ppm ammonia, .25 Nitrites & 5-10ppm Nitrates, then two days ago my small amount of nitrites disappeared with the ammonia & nitrates remaining the same. I have also been using Stability as instructed.

Counting the initial 6 days cycling with fish food & Stability, we are now on day 24 of this tank with very little to no nitrite readings. Shouldn't we have seen more by this time, or am I being impatient here? We love our new tank and expected about a month to cycle. I just thought we'd be more on our way by now.

 

So your ammonia is at 1.00 still with no change? Have you re-dosed ammonia since then? Did you do an initial water change to bring it down?

What dechlorinator did you use initially?
What is your ph in the tank right now?
And are you shaking (banging) nitrate bottle no. 2 for 30 seconds on the counter before using it to test?

 

Thanks for your help CindiL No, there is no change in the ammonia levels, and yes, I did a 50% water change to bring it down to 1ppm.

I have only used Prime for a dechlorinator.
Ph is 8.0
Yes, I am quite vigorous with the shaking of Nitrate bottle #2
Water is at 83°

 

What brand of ammonia do you have? So ammonia is at 1.0 right now? And nitrates are at ?

 

Ammonia brand is the Home Store, from the dollar store. We looked everywhere for the pure stuff, kept finding it with added ingredients. This one doesn't have an ingredients list but was the only one that passed the shake test.

ammonia is 1ppm
Nitrate test lightened just a bit after the water change but it still reads at least 10ppm

 

Hmm, it seems like stability isn't doing too much for you I have to say.

You could do another 50% water change and re-dose ammonia or you could try using TSS+ (tetra safe start plus) or you could just wait another week. Seems like you're on more of a normal cycling process (like you'd be without a bacterial additive).

 

Is there any indicator that we can see showing us that things are going well? Like, I'm wondering about the white film on my driftwood and if it may be competing for food with potential BB? Should I brush it off or leave it alone?

 

I'd re-test your ph if you haven't and let me know what it is in the tank.
Also, do you know your GH/KH levels (general hardness and carbonate hardness or alkalinity)?

You can give the driftwood a spray with vinegar or Hydrogen peroxide. Is it white and fuzzy? Its probably saprolegnia and you don't want to let it grow unchecked in your tank. It is normal to find it growing on decaying things like wood or food. It doesn't compete with the BB though.

 

Thanks again CindiL Just checked the pH last night, it was 8.0 as reported, but we haven't been checking it a lot because I have read that it can swing during a cycle??? I will definitely check again in a short while and report back.

Just got the GH/KH kit a couple days ago but again, didn't use it on this tank for the same reason stated above. Will do that now. Thanks again for your attention and assistance

pH - 8.0
GH - 18 drops - 322.2ppm
KH - 11 drops - 196.9ppm
Also tested with a digital TDS meter and got 310ppm. That seems strange that it is lower than my GH???

I know that by the time stamps, the testing seems quick, but we had our internet drop out for a little bit and were testing during that time

 

Stability is a useless product, I would use tetra safe start as suggested above.

 

I'm getting to the point where I am inclined to agree about the Stability . This is my first trial with the stuff and it's getting quite aggravating.

The reason why we are avoiding TSS is that although I've read many reports of success, I've also seen several reports stating that TSS does not provide the tank with a strong and healthy colony of BB, with some saying that their cycle crashed after using it. So, I'm nervous about it. Again

 

Ok, well the KH is awesome and you'll never have to worry about a ph crash. You generally only see fluctuations in ph while cycling if you have a low KH. The nitrogen cycle is acidic and uses up the carbonates. If you don't have enough of them then you'll see ph fall.
Your GH is high, though most fish will do ok at that level, especially hard water thriving fish like any type of livebearer.

That is weird your TDS shows lower I agree. The only thing I can think of is that maybe you did the GH or the Kh test wrong? You add the drops in one at a time, until while looking down into the vial, you see the color change. Because you know your GH is so high, you could start with 12 drops or so right off the bat, then add one at a time after that and see where it turns.
You don't have to do that though, it doesn't really matter.

Stability is a useless product, I would use tetra safe start as suggested above.

Each bacterial product is different and some work better in some situations in others so what doesn't work for you might work great for someone else and vice versa.

stella1979 , trust me when I saw Tetra Safe Start is a solid product and what you have read about it just isn't true. There is also, Dr. Tim's one and only which is very similar to TSS.

 

I'm getting to the point where I am inclined to agree about the Stability . This is my first trial with the stuff and it's getting quite aggravating.

The reason why we are avoiding TSS is that although I've read many reports of success, I've also seen several reports stating that TSS does not provide the tank with a strong and healthy colony of BB, with some saying that their cycle crashed after using it. So, I'm nervous about it. Again

I have used stability before & I had to cycle for 4 weeks as usual before any nitrates appeared, I've also heard a lot of the same thing. Tetra safe start isn't available in Australia however I've actually never heard anything bad about it.

 

On a completely fishless note , have you ever heard of the band Maddie & Tae? Saw them open for another artist awhile back and they were great. Your name reminded me of them

CindiL I do trust you! Going to source some TSS today. Do you recommend staying fishless for this? We'd like to because we really don't want to hurt anyone

 

Its up to you. TSS+ works great with fish IF done correctly. I can help you do that if you choose to so let me know. You would do a huge water change to get ammonia back to 0, add in prime or other dechlorinator, wait 24 hours.
After 24 hours you would add in one small fish per 10 gallon (so NO goldies, they are not small). In a 10 gallon tank I'd use to small fish like guppies or danios etc, in your 20g, you could get 3 small fish. Add in the whole small bottle of TSS+. Feed sparingly, do nothing for the first week for sure, after a week I like to test to make sure things are on track and the product hasn't failed though they usually tell you not to do anything for two weeks.

 

I will do exactly that! I can get TSS and guppies locally so no probs! Stocking question: eventually we wanted 4 Guppies, 10-12 Neons & 6 RCS in this tank. If we get 3 guppies at a local store, will I still be able to add 4 more later from a farm up the road that has the specific Guppies we would like?

Also, I know the pH is high for Neons. We had hoped to bring it down after cycling by adding a specific percentage of RO & Tap water with water changes. Hmmm, I'm wondering if this is now wise since we will already have some fish. Any thoughts?

OK CindiL, water change almost done. I've read another of your posts, this one...

Ammonia Instructions when Cycling with TSS+ or other Bacterial Starter

So, any specific reason not to go fishless and use the ammonia we have?

Also, we have a regular dechlorinator, so any specific reason not to use that instead of Prime so we can shorten the wait time for dosing ammonia?

 

I think you may be overstocked with 7 guppies and 10-12 neons though I'm definitely not a stocking expert. I'd post a new thread asking about this stocking to get advice. Why not just start with some from the farm up the road? Also, I'd highly recommend only males or females if they're separated from early on and not pregnant. Otherwise your tank will be quickly overrun.

As far as ph goes, most fish will adjust to a ph from high 6's to the low 8's, if they are already in your stores they are probably in a similar ph water already. I have rummy nose tetras in my ph of 7.9 and have had them for over a year now.

Its up to you how to cycle, either way works whether you use ammonia or a few fish with TSS+.
If its successful then its enjoyable to have the fish, if it fails you'll need to do water changes and dose prime to keep your fish safe. I rarely see it fail but it does happen once in awhile. With few fish, it usually works really well. Usually people overstock initially and the added bacteria cannot handle the ammonia output and so the cycle fails and fish die.

If you continue fishless, you can add ammonia at the same time you add dechlorinator or prime. Either way you will need to wait a bit before adding the TSS+. For sure 12-24 hours with prime before adding it and I'd say at least 6 hours with a regular dechlorinator just to be safe.

 

Thanks so much for all of your advice CindiL. I will do as instructed with ammonia, add the TSS tomorrow and post my test results in a week to see what you think I really can't thank you enough

Edit: The fish farm is pretty far away and we just had our first visit yesterday, just to check it out.

 

Cycling with ammonia and not fish, you'll still want to test every day. Once ammonia and nitrites are down to .25, you'll re-dose ammonia up to 1.0 again. Once you can dose ammonia to 1.0 and 24 hours later you have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites then you'll be cycled

 

OK, so if I end up with ammonia at 0, but nitrates at 1.0 or higher, then I will not dose with ammonia?

 

If you want to just post them every day, go ahead and I'll help you but basically dose ammonia and wait for both ammonia and nitrites to drop down to .25-.5, most likely ammonia will be 0 by the time nitrites drop down. You can dose once they're down that far.

 

Stability is a useless product, I would use tetra safe start as suggested above.

I've cycled my tank with Stability and it went very smooth. My lfs uses it all the time and they recommend it. Perhaps your using the product improperly or have other issues, but to say a well known popular product is useless is nonsense.

 

Thanks again CindiL I'll be testing each evening, basically every 24 hours after I added the TSS+, which was at 7pm today. I think I've got it, you've explained everything very well. I'll let you know if anything weird happens

Thanks for the input jpm995. I have relied on SeaChem for a very long time, so I feel like I just had a bad experience this time around. It's too bad that my bad luck occurred when I was trying to use Stability for the first time.

On that note, does anyone know if Stability is sensitive to cold and heat like TSS+ is? We had it shipped to FL when it was nice and cool here, but freezing elsewhere in the country. Perhaps it freezed, rendering in inert?

 

I've cycled my tank with Stability and it went very smooth. My lfs uses it all the time and they recommend it. Perhaps your using the product improperly or have other issues, but to say a well known popular product is useless is nonsense.

I did use it properly, sometimes it works fine and sometimes
It doesn't I guess.

 

HI fishy friends,

I am currently cycling a 20gL. My apologies in advance for this long post. I want you to know how things went from the beginning so I can get the best advice.

Day 1 - set up with sand, stones, driftwood & fake plants. Set up filter with half lightly used and half new media. Filter runs at 140GPH. Added Stability (first day, double dose) and threw in a few flakes. Don't have the heater yet, tank stays at 75°F without it.

Days 2 - 6 Dosed with Stability (single dose), added a flake or two twice during this time. Tested on days 4 & 6 for ammonia and nitrites and got 0 for both.

Day 7 - got impatient and decided to start dosing with pure ammonia, brought level to 3ppm

Day 8 - ammonia down to 2ppm, nitrites at .25ppm, nitrAtes at 10-20ppm.

Days 9 - 12 ammonia 1ppm, nitrites .5ppm, nitrates 10-20ppm

Day 13 - ammonia .25ppm, nitrites .5ppm, nitrates 10-20ppm. Added more pure ammonia to bring level up to 3ppm. Heater arrived, tank now at 78°F

Day 14 - 19(today) ammonia 3ppm nitrites .5ppm, nitrates 10-20ppm

I know this is a waiting game but I'm starting to worry something has gone wrong. After the initial dose of ammonia the levels dropped slowly over 5 days. I'm now 7 days after the second ammonia dose and nothing has changed. For the past few days I have removed the lid for about 12 hours a day, hoping for better gas exchange to oxygenate the water. Just today I turned the heater to 83°F hoping a warm environment will help.

I'm trying to be patient but I'm starting to worry. Have things stalled? The used media we added in the beginning was only in our old tank for 3 weeks but I think this is what is giving me nitrate readings already. Any ideas on speeding things along, or should I just stop testing everyday to make me worry less? CindiL I would love to hear your thoughts, you're posts have been so helpful already

I recommend doing a 30% water change and putting spring water.

 

On that note, does anyone know if Stability is sensitive to cold and heat like TSS+ is? We had it shipped to FL when it was nice and cool here, but freezing elsewhere in the country. Perhaps it freezed, rendering in inert?

They're all temperature sensitive and won't survive freezing temperatures. It comes down to the fact that every eco system is unique and what works for one person, may not work for another as far as the bacterial strains go. Some have better success with one then the other. If one doesn't work, I do think its a good idea to try the other. The one thing I'll say about TSS that I really like is it seems to come loaded with nitrobacter/spira, the nitrite converters where a lot of people get stuck. People who use this generally don't see high nitrites.

 

Can't wait to start seeing test results

 

OK CindiL, I swore to myself that I would leave you alone for awhile but here are my test results, 24 hours after TSS+. Not exactly what I expected

pH - 8.2
Ammonia - 0.5ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrates - 40ppm or 80ppm (I can't see a color difference on the card, either between 10 & 20, or 40 & 80.)

This is hardly different than my test results prior to dosing TSS+ except that the Nitrates have doubled! I don't know what to think. Should I dose more TSS? Dose ammonia? Do nothing because these look close to a cycled tank? I'm a little worried that I never saw Nitrites rise above 0.5 in all this time.

 

I am not sure if anyone mentioned, but to get a better reading for the nitrates you can test 50% tank water and 50% tap water, then multiply your result by two. It may help see where you are at. I know the colors are very difficult to distinguish.
Good Luck!

 

I couldn't help myself.. tested again this morning. Got 0.5-ammonia, 0-nitrites, 40 or 80-nitrites.

That darn nitrate test is driving me mad I did the dilution test and got 10 or 20.

Edited - mistakenly reversed the test results for ammonia & nitrites, fixed now.

 

24 hours after adding in TSS+ isn't enough time
It take up to 48 hours just for the bacteria to adhere to surfaces in your tank and then they start multiplying from there. You are supposed to add in the whole bottle of TSS at once, you don't dose it like Stability.

Don't dose ammonia today, lets see where its at tonight or tomorrow. That's a really good sign you're seeing your nitrates rise as it shows the ammonia and some of the nitrites are now being converted to nitrates. This is all promising

 

I dumped half of a 40 gallon bottle of TSS for my 20 gallon tank. It was cheaper than I thought, so I figured I'd get extra to have on hand.

I will leave it alone CindiL, thanks I knew that was the right thing to do, just thought the ammonia would rise more than .5 after the TSS+. I worry too much, which makes me even more thankful to you for all your help.

 

I believe i've read that with TSS your not supposed to test your water for a few days as the results are confusing. I think ammo is in with the bacteria to help jump start the cycle. I could be wrong but read the instructions and check their website [or call].

This is from another thread.

Day 1 through 14: No water changes. Doing so will stop the cycling process. If there's any water evaporation then use some water from the 1 gallon jug of pretreated water to do a top-off.

It is very important during the 14 day cycle that you feed your fish normally. If you underfeed you risk lengthening the cycle. If you overfeed you risk the bacteria not being able to keep up with all of the ammonia, which will stop or stall the cycle. High amounts of ammonia can hinder the nitrifying bacteria.

TSS is designed to facilitate a safe and effective cycle while fish are in the tank. The water chemistry is going to be all over the place during the first week or so and will settle down during the second week. There's no point in running any tests during the 14 day cycle unless you notice visual signs of distress or illness in your fish, which should not happen.

What you will not need:

• Bottled ammonia – This will kill the good bacteria in TSS. TSS is meant to be used with fish.
• Ammonia Binder – Adding AmoLoc or other similar product to the tank during the cycling process will remove the ammonia needed to sustain the nitrifying bacteria.
• Chemicals to raise the pH - Unless you are starting a cichlid tank, or have pH below 7 from the tap, do not add anything to alter the pH. If you need to alter your pH for any special reason and you would like some advice before you begin the cycle, start a new thread and we'll help you with it.

 

I don't know where that thread is from, but not true at all about the bottled ammonia. People cycle with TSS and ammonia all the time here on the forum with no issues. Bottled ammonia won't kill the bacteria though too high levels of ammonia can hinder the cycle just like too many fish putting out too much ammonia can do the same thing.

The only thing off with water chemistry initially is the ammonia as it comes housed in an ammonium solution so will give you a false higher ammonia reading for a few days.

 

Thanks for the input jpm995 I am testing because I don't have a fish in there producing ammonia. However, I do have pure ammonia, so I'm keeping an eye on the levels in case I need to add a bit of that. Test results were the same at the 48 hour mark...

0.5 - ammonia
0 - nitrItes
40 - nitrAtes

So I'm just
Wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin'