Fishless cycle, only the tank isn't cycling. What am I doing wrong?

I'm almost as impatient as Little Miss. Tank: Cycle faster so we can go shopping for fishies!

But seriously, it's at least moving in the right direction now.

 

Hi, Sister!

I forgot to test the water this morning, what with having to get Mom from the airport and all. So this afternoon:

pH 8.2 (I don't expect this to change until I change or add water)
Ammonia 1ppm - maybe a little lighter, but not as light as .5
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 10-20ppm
Temp 80F

So nitrites and nitrates seem to be about where they should be. But ammonia has been the same for several days. Please don't stall, please don't stall, please don't stall...

 

I'm wondering if you lack enough phosphate in your water to complete your cycle. Why don't you toss in a couple of fish food flakes to add phosphate. Just a very small pinch, or if you want to count 3 or 4 flakes. Just a suggestion if things stall like they appear to be.

 

I'll pick some up tomorrow and see if it helps. I haven't bought any yet because we haven't had fish to feed yet!

 

Hi,

TSS normally requires a fish or two to complete the cycle with the fish supplying the ammonia to break down into nitrite then nitrate. My only worry is your ammonia has always been 1ish. So personally I would add a source of ammonia such as the flake or thawed shrimp and monitor the ammonia and nitrite. As the filter gets stronger ammonia should go to 0.

I fear if you don't do this you won't know if you are truly cycled.

Good luck

 

The ammonia was 2-4 when I put the TSS in. It dropped to 1 after adding that.

The bottle (I happen to have bought another one for when we do eventually add fish) says to "add entire bottle to aquarium up to 20 gallons. Aquarium is then ready for fish." Maybe it intends for fish to be added right away after adding the bacteria?

 

Yes that's what I believe from the tetra video. The only strange thing is the ammonia not reducing to 0. With TSS you won't see any nitrite that is an affect of the product. The reason for the flake or shrimp is to see that any new ammonia is processed by the filter correctly and it remains fed. Some people use flake but it can take a while to turn into ammonia. It's also safe to use the flake or shrimp than sacrifice a new fish to test the efficency of the filter.

It looks like you are nearly there just need to get ammonia to 0 along with the nitrite.

 

Found this for you, you are somewhere in that little yellow bump in the ammonia chart. So on track but need to continue to feed the filter.

 

I have shrimp. I could toss one in and see what it does.

 

According to that, the ammonia should peak about five or six days after adding TSS and should drop to 0 by day 15. I added the TSS on Sept 2; today is day three.

What it doesn't say is how high the ammonia was to begin with, so I don't know if how fast it drops to 0 it is dependent on how it was in the first place.

 

You want to add something that you can remove if the ammonia rises too much. The chart makes me think you are on track but you don't want to lose the filter you have created by starving it. Maybe flake is a little more conservative but either way you need to monitor to ensure ammonia stays low like it is now. The chart shows the ammonia going to 0 after about two weeks but the filter will still need to develop in that time and can only do so if fed.

 

I suppose a shrimp it is. I'll drop one in tonight and see what the levels look like after that. How high is "too high" here so I know when to remove it?

 

You can use TSS+ with either fish in or with an ammonia source such as pure ammonia or a piece of shrimp etc. With TSS+ you want ammonia to drop close to 0 before re-dosing and I believe is how he talks about doing it. The ammonia converting bacteria contrary to popular thought can go a long time without food but in this case there is still food in there. Since you're only on day 3 I wouldn't worry about it at all. Takes two full weeks generally to cycle with TSS+. When doing it with ammonia, you wait for ammonia to drop down to 0-.25 then re-dose to 1.0-2.0. It is not a good idea to ever dose more than that with it because it kills off the bacteria. When you can dose ammonia and 24 hours you have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites then you are cycled for that amount of ammonia.

I agree it's a good idea to put in a few fish pellets. Some people get stuck at the nitrite stage due to lack of phosphates and this gets things moving.

 

Don't let it go above two would be what I would do. If you are worried maybe put half in.

Ideally with the shrimp it will stay around 1 and then you know the filter and TSS are working and you haven't needed a fish in the cycle.

Good luck.

 

You can use TSS+ with either fish in or with an ammonia source such as pure ammonia

How would I go about getting the correct amount of pure ammonia to get it up to 1-2ppm, when it's time to do that?

 

If what I've read, it's one or two drops per gallon. I would recommend starting at 1 drop then test. If it's not between 1 to 2 ppm, add a few more drops until it is. I would not add ammonia until it hits 0, but don't let it go longer then 24 hours at 0. I only recommend the fish flakes because no ammonia movement for a couple of days, and thought low phosphate. Granted you just started to cycle too, so that's probably why.

 

I have determined that cycling is crazy-making. Hopefully once it's established there will be less crazy-making.

 

I have a question. Didn't your tank kit come with a little packet of food? If so, then I would use a few flakes from that. I still think you have low phosphate, because I feel there should be more movement in ammonia then what your experiencing. Unless the TSS+ you got was the monthly and not start up. Then that could be why.

I'm not suggesting the food as an ammonia source either. Just phosphate source.

 

I have a question. Didn't your tank kit come with a little packet of food? If so, then I would use a few flakes from that. I still think you have low phosphate, because I feel there should be more movement in ammonia then what your experiencing. Unless the TSS+ you got was the monthly and not start up. Then that could be why.

The ammonia converters, nitrosonomas don't need the phosphate but the nitrite converters, nitrospira, nitrobacter definitely do. So when someone has high nitrites that aren't converting over to nitrates definitely a good idea to add in food. Ironically, before fishless cycling with ammonia that wasn't an issue even though cycling with food isn't the easiest or the most efficient way to go about it.

 

No, the kit didn't come with any food. It came with a tank, a lighted lid (which I replaced because the one it came with had a hole for feeding wiht no cover, so I wa slosing a lot of water fast to evaporation), a cartridge filter (which broke), a stick-on thermometer (which never worked), and a heater (which works, but is difficult to adjust to proper temperature). I'd've been better off buying the parts separately in the first place, I think, since I replaced the filter after a week and the lid after two anyway.

The TSS I got says it's for starting new aquariums and for maintenance when adding new fish. I haven't seen nitrites ever. My only guess is that the bacteria that convert nitrites to nitrates are working faster than the ones that convert ammonia to nitrites, which is why the nitrates are increasing faster than the ammonia is decreasing and haven't once seen nitrites over 0.

This morning:
Ammonia 0.5ppm (inching, inching, inching....)
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 10+ppm (I have a hard time telling a difference between 10's orange and 20's orange on the chart, but it's definitely not anywhere near 40's red)
Temp 80F

I haven't added or removed anything; I'm going to wait till ammonia gets to 0.25 before I do anything to raise the ammonia levels.

 

That is great! Re-dose to 2.0 after its down to .25. It should get faster after that and not long before you can dose to 2.0 and 24 hours later ammonia and nitrites are 0. Then you'll be cycled

 

I am seriously crossing my fingers that we can get there by Saturday. Sister's only here for the weekend and doesn't get to come down often, and I know Little Miss has been wanting to go fish shopping with her Aunt since we started talking about the tank.

I mean, we'll get a couple fish when the tank is ready regardless of whether Sister is here, but I know they're both excited about going fish shopping together and I don't know the next time that opportunity will arise.

 

Well lets see where you're at but you will probably be able to start with some by the weekend, though fewer then perhaps you'd like to, if its taking longer than 24 hours.

 

I'm okay starting her off with two or three and letting the filter acclimate as necessary.I definitely don't want to fully stock it right away and end up shocking the system and harming the fish!

At the rate it's been going, I suspect this weekend might be cutting it very very close, so I'm not *expecting* it to be ready by Saturday, but it would be nice if it was.

 

It's making me anxious that your daughter probably won't get a fish when your sister arrives...

 

I haven't mentioned potential fish-buying to Little Miss yet, because she'd be heartbroken if she couldn't. Better to not tell her and have it be a happy surprise if she can, than to say she might and then tell her she can't because the tank isn't ready.

 

That makes things easier... I thought your sister told her that they're going to get a fish when she arrives.

 

The ammonia converters, nitrosonomas don't need the phosphate but the nitrite converters, nitrospira, nitrobacter definitely do. So when someone has high nitrites that aren't converting over to nitrates definitely a good idea to add in food. Ironically, before fishless cycling with ammonia that wasn't an issue even though cycling with food isn't the easiest or the most efficient way to go about it.

Oops, got it backwards again. Thanks for the correction.

 

Well, we discussed them going together to buy fish a while ago, but nothing recently. Little Miss wants to go fish shopping with Sister at some point, but she doesn't know that it might be this weekend.

 

pH 8.2
Ammonia 0.25!!!! ppm
Nitrites 0ppm
Nitrates 10-20ppm
Temp 80F

Getting there!

 

pH is 8.0 this morning, surprising since I've not done anything to the tank.
Ammonia not quite 0ppm, but very close! It's just a tiny tinge of green but not as green as 0.25
Nitrite oppm
Nitrate 10-20ppm
Temp 80F

I'll test again this afternoon.evening, and if ammonia is 0 I'll dose the tank with the pure ammonia from the cleaning supplies and see if it cycles through in 24 hours.

She might be able to get fish by Saturday after all.

 

Question: why leave ammonia drop to 0? Won't you be starving them?

 

I was given to understand that ammonia must be consistently at 0 before I can add fish. The plan is to let it get to 0, dose it with enough ammonia to get it beck to 2 to ensure it can get back to 0 in 24 hours, then do a water change and add fish. I don't intend to leave it sit at 0 indefinitely.

 

Yes, you want it to drop to 0-.25, (some people register trace ammonia for months after cycling) so I think you would be fine dosing it now. Also, since you want her to be able to at least get a few fish this weekend, I would dose ammonia only to 1.0 and see where things are at 24 hours after that. I'd be surprised if it could handle the full 2.0 ammonia in 24 hours since you are only getting close to 0 now.

 

Yes, my tank initially suffered also:
- high pH (7.8)
- out of range ammonia 8.0+ (no scale to describe)
- zero nitrites and zero nitrates
that means, the tank was not cycled yet.

And I was old and stupid enough to plant it initially with plastic plants, no wonder nothing was happening. After:
- throwing away plastic plants (left just one)
- planting 4 large live plants
- adding Fritz Zyme 7 (5 cups to my 26 gal tank)
made the trick and after over 40 days the tank cycle is complete. And my fish have never been happier.

My advice is:
- stop adding water chemicals / conditioners
- add Fritz Zyme 7 in amount of 5 times the doze
- wait 3-4 days test water
- your ammonia should go down to almost nothing.

One thing, do not pay attention to the fact Zyme may not smell as bad as people say, mine did not smelled once purchased although expiration date was 2018. And it has diluted pinkish color.

All the above is valid for water temp around 75F, if you have 86F, then forget about what I said before you buy a chiller. Good luck.

 

It's 10 hours since this morning's reading, and right now we have:

pH 8.0 (hopefully this will lower with the water change I'll do before we put fish in)
Ammonia 0!!! 0, 0, 0! ppm
Nitrites 0ppm
Nitrates 10-20ppm
Temp 80F

I'm going to add the ammonia now and test again in 12 and 24 hours.

 

Yay, your daughter will get fish in 2 days! Be sure to update us!

 

Dosed ammonia to 2ppm at 6pm yesterday. 7am today:

pH 8.0
Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 20-40ppm
Temp 80F

I'll check again at 6pm to see if the ammonia's dropped any. It looks like at 13 hours it's gone through about half of what I put in, so it *should* be there in another 11-12 hours. I hope.

 

Looks like that hope was misplaced. 23 hours after dosing with ammonia and it's coming up at 1ppm still. The only way she's getting fish at this point is if we do a water change with bottled water. Or if by some miracle it drops to 0 in the next hour.

I don't want to talk about how I'm feeling about this tank right this minute.