Fishless Cycle Confusion!

Hi, thanks for your reply. Yes I’m using Tetra AquaSafe to condition the tap water, overdosing it really to make sure!

I’ll clean the gravel as best as I can & then try not to do any more water changes. I’ve got a feeling that my tank is processing some ammonia but because the food is creating more as it drops it’s not showing in my tests. That’s the only way I can explain the nitrates anyway?!

I’ve done some research on betta’s & know they don’t like it so warm! So I’ll definitely turn it down before we get him. Do you think the cycle would benefit from me turning it down now? Everything I’ve seen before has said the warmer the better for bacterial growth. I have a large air stone on full pelt as well as lots of surface agitation from the filter.

I have been advised that 2ppm ammonia would be overkill for a single Betta & to cycle 1ppm. What your opinion on this please?

It won't hurt to reduce the temperature. 26 would be fine.

 

It won't hurt to reduce the temperature. 26 would be fine.

Well it looks like we’ve processed 0.5 ppm in less than 24 hours so there’s definite progress. I hoovered the gravel last night & removed a suprising amount of gunk! Then topped the water up to 1ppm with bottled ammonia. Also turned the temp down to 26.

Should I just let it drop down to almost nothing now & then top back up to 1ppm?

 

Well it looks like we’ve processed 0.5 ppm in less than 24 hours so there’s definite progress. I hoovered the gravel last night & removed a suprising amount of gunk! Then topped the water up to 1ppm with bottled ammonia. Also turned the temp down to 26.

Should I just let it drop down to almost nothing now & then top back up to 1ppm?

Just top it off to 1 ppm when it drops to around .25 ppm. You're getting close! Congrats on your patience! It's really hard to wait, especially when you're nearly there. Like the last week of school before a holiday!

 

Just top it off to 1 ppm when it drops to around .25 ppm. You're getting close! Congrats on your patience! It's really hard to wait, especially when you're nearly there. Like the last week of school before a holiday!

Haha it is exactly like that!! Thank you for all your advice! Really looking forward to getting our little beauty now I’ll keep you updated, fingers crossed it won’t be long now

 

Just top it off to 1 ppm when it drops to around .25 ppm. You're getting close! Congrats on your patience! It's really hard to wait, especially when you're nearly there. Like the last week of school before a holiday!

Hi, unfortunately it looks like progress has stalled again :-( the day after I got the 0.5 reading it went back up again to 1ppm. Probably still due to some left over gunk after cleaning? It’s not dropped again since & I’m unsure what to do next. I’m considering another dose of TSS? It’s still showing between 3 & 5ppm Nitrates & 0 Nitrites. The PH remains pretty stable at 7.8 ppm. Thanks

 

Hi, unfortunately it looks like progress has stalled again :-( the day after I got the 0.5 reading it went back up again to 1ppm. Probably still due to some left over gunk after cleaning? It’s not dropped again since & I’m unsure what to do next. I’m considering another dose of TSS? It’s still showing between 3 & 5ppm Nitrates & 0 Nitrites. The PH remains pretty stable at 7.8 ppm. Thanks

HI Sarah 86! Things are progressing. My tank took 6 weeks to fully cycle when with a bunch of well seeded lava rock and the filter media from my 30 gallon tank. You want to keep your ammonia at around 1 ppm so it's fine. One other thing that you haven't been able to test (because you don't have the GH/KH test kit) but that impacts the speed of bacterial growth is the mineral content of your water--calcium (CaCo3, CaSO4), and magnesium (MgSO4). Bacteria use these minerals to grow. That's why water changes are important at some points during cycling. I don't think TSS is going to be of any additional benefit to your cycling. A different bacteria culture may help some though. Microbe-Lift Nite-Out II, Microbacter7, DrTim's Aquatics One and Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria and Seachem Stability are a few other products available.

 

HI Sarah 86! Things are progressing. My tank took 6 weeks to fully cycle when with a bunch of well seeded lava rock and the filter media from my 30 gallon tank. You want to keep your ammonia at around 1 ppm so it's fine. One other thing that you haven't been able to test (because you don't have the GH/KH test kit) but that impacts the speed of bacterial growth is the mineral content of your water--calcium (CaCo3, CaSO4), and magnesium (MgSO4). Bacteria use these minerals to grow. That's why water changes are important at some points during cycling. I don't think TSS is going to be of any additional benefit to your cycling. A different bacteria culture may help some though. Microbe-Lift Nite-Out II, Microbacter7, DrTim's Aquatics One and Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria and Seachem Stability are a few other products available.

Thanks for your reply & reassurance! I just think I got a bit ahead of myself when I saw the drop the other day & expected it to keep dropping. I have just ordered some Dr Tim’s online (it doesn’t seem to be readily available in shops in the UK) & it should arrive tomorrow or Thursday. Do you think I should do a small water change tonight? & should I add the whole bottle (60ml) of Dr Tim’s when it arrives?
I will look into getting the GH/KH test too. Thanks again

 

Thanks for your reply & reassurance! I just think I got a bit ahead of myself when I saw the drop the other day & expected it to keep dropping. I have just ordered some Dr Tim’s online (it doesn’t seem to be readily available in shops in the UK) & it should arrive tomorrow or Thursday. Do you think I should do a small water change tonight? & should I add the whole bottle (60ml) of Dr Tim’s when it arrives?
I will look into getting the GH/KH test too. Thanks again

Just add the Dr. Tim's when it gets there. No water change yet. You're doing fine!

 

Thanks for your reply & reassurance! I just think I got a bit ahead of myself when I saw the drop the other day & expected it to keep dropping. I have just ordered some Dr Tim’s online (it doesn’t seem to be readily available in shops in the UK) & it should arrive tomorrow or Thursday. Do you think I should do a small water change tonight? & should I add the whole bottle (60ml) of Dr Tim’s when it arrives?
I will look into getting the GH/KH test too. Thanks again

I have literally finished my fishless cycle about a week and a half ago it took 6weeks to fully complete have had fish in for the week and half now. All my parameters are spot on no spikes of ammonia or nitrite it is well worth the wait I ended up doing a couple of water changes but mainly when my nitrates went through the roof 160ppm and it really helped my cycle move along. Momgoose will keep u on the right track. Patience is def the key. Drove me mad for 6 weeks Haha good luck.

 

I have literally finished my fishless cycle about a week and a half ago it took 6weeks to fully complete have had fish in for the week and half now. All my parameters are spot on no spikes of ammonia or nitrite it is well worth the wait I ended up doing a couple of water changes but mainly when my nitrates went through the roof 160ppm and it really helped my cycle move along. Mongoose will keep u on the right track. Patience is def the key. Drove me mad for 6 weeks Haha good luck.

Thank you for the complement! I'm so happy you'r tank and fish are doing well. Your patience and diligence paid off big time, congrats!

 

Thank you for the complement! I'm so happy you'r tank and fish are doing well. Your patience and diligence paid off big time, congrats!

So worth it and your welcome! still got a lot to learn but am browsing forum everyday and see yourself on here all the time giving great advice!

 

So worth it and your welcome! still got a lot to learn but am browsing forum everyday and see yourself on here all the time giving great advice!

Aww congrats!! That’s great it’s completed & you’ve got your fish I think the hardest thing is the doubt that it’s not happening or if I’m doing something wrong! Momgoose is definitely my lifeline! Think I’d have given up by now if I didn’t have your support so thank you

 

Aww congrats!! That’s great it’s completed & you’ve got your fish I think the hardest thing is the doubt that it’s not happening or if I’m doing something wrong! Momgoose is definitely my lifeline! Think I’d have given up by now if I didn’t have your support so thank you

You're welcome too Sarah86! But all I have to do is sit here and have an opinion, it's your sticking-to-it and being patiently diligent that gets you through it successfully!

 

You're welcome too Sarah86! But all I have to do is sit here and have an opinion, it's your sticking-to-it and being patiently diligent that gets you through it successfully!

I just think this forum is brilliant! It’s amazing that people like yourself are so willing & committed to helping people that you don’t know to partake in a hobby that can be so complex! I hope that I’ll be able to do the same when I have some more experience

 

You're welcome too Sarah86! But all I have to do is sit here and have an opinion, it's your sticking-to-it and being patiently diligent that gets you through it successfully!

Well now I’m really excited... a definite 0.25 Nitrites & 5ppm Nitrates!!! Ammonia still reading at 1ppm. Just added a full bottle of Dr Tim’s so fingers crossed things will progress a bit quicker now.
Please could you just advise me about testing in the next few days? I’ve read that the bacteria can produce some strange results

 

So far so good! When that ammonia drops to 0ppm, top it back up to 1ppm again. When you're processing that full 1ppm ammonia directly to nitrate in the span of a day you'll be ready for your fish. Shouldn't be long now.

So while nitrites and nitrates are important cycle milestones, it's reassuring to finally see them appear, but I wouldn't worry about continuing to test those at the moment (you can, it just doesn't change the fact that you have to be able to process them in this order since one depends on the previous creating it's food source)... it'll all continue happening in the background whether you know the values or not, in case you're getting sick of testing and recording all three daily, and using up a lot of test solution... Especially the nitrates... Confirming you have them is one thing, but tracking what they are exactly doesn't really benefit you for your cycling, so I'd save those for extra drops for when you do your routine maintenance water samples...
Your primary focus right now is tracking the ammonia processing capacity, you need that to be able to process 1ppm daily to 0ppm in 24 hours, unless you can do that you know your cycle isn't ready so the rest of the tests are irrelevant at the moment. When you notice this is happening, you could then continue testing nitrites again, if you're only processing 1ppm ammonia but not processing the resulting amount of nitrite, then you're still not fully cycled. When you notice ammonia and nitrites both reduce to 0ppm in a 24 hour span, then you do a full water change and purchase your fish.

 

So far so good! When that ammonia drops to 0ppm, top it back up to 1ppm again. When you're processing that full 1ppm ammonia directly to nitrate in the span of a day you'll be ready for your fish. Shouldn't be long now.

So while nitrites and nitrates are important cycle milestones, it's reassuring to finally see them appear, but I wouldn't worry about continuing to test those at the moment (you can, it just doesn't change the fact that you have to be able to process them in this order since one depends on the previous creating it's food source)... it'll all continue happening in the background whether you know the values or not, in case you're getting sick of testing and recording all three daily, and using up a lot of test solution... Especially the nitrates... Confirming you have them is one thing, but tracking what they are exactly doesn't really benefit you for your cycling, so I'd save those for extra drops for when you do your routine maintenance water samples...
Your primary focus right now is tracking the ammonia processing capacity, you need that to be able to process 1ppm daily to 0ppm in 24 hours, unless you can do that you know your cycle isn't ready so the rest of the tests are irrelevant at the moment. When you notice this is happening, you could then continue testing nitrites again, if you're only processing 1ppm ammonia but not processing the resulting amount of nitrite, then you're still not fully cycled. When you notice ammonia and nitrites both reduce to 0ppm in a 24 hour span, then you do a full water change and purchase your fish.

I’ll relax on the other tests now then & just do a daily ammonia test. Thanks for your reply

 

I’ll relax on the other tests now then & just do a daily ammonia test. Thanks for your reply

Yep, I mean it won't hurt to do, so if you wanted to you could, but yeah. Let that ammonia drop to 0 or close enough to 0, then bump it back up to 1ppm again drop to 0 and when it's processing it daily, keep bumping it up to 1ppm daily until your cycle is complete so you aren't starving the bacteria across the finish line, I'm sure you probably got the idea by now but I'd rather be too blunt about it than risk your hard earned cycle crashing from not being clear enough lol.

 

Yep, I mean it won't hurt to do, so if you wanted to you could, but yeah. Let that ammonia drop to 0 or close enough to 0, then bump it back up to 1ppm again drop to 0 and when it's processing it daily, keep bumping it up to 1ppm daily until your cycle is complete so you aren't starving the bacteria across the finish line, I'm sure you probably got the idea by now but I'd rather be too blunt about it than risk your hard earned cycle crashing from not being clear enough lol.

I’d prefer not to keep doing the tests, it’s time consuming & does seem a waste of solution when it’s not telling me anything in particular! I was just so pleased to see that tube turn purple haha! No thank you for making it clear! I have got a pretty good idea by now I think but it takes such a lot of patience to get to this point I’m happy to have it drummed into me lol

 

Haha good to hear, it seems like it's really a lot to take in as a novice but once you get the hang of it it's really not so bad.

 

a definite 0.25 Nitrites & 5ppm Nitrates!!! Ammonia still reading at 1ppm.

If I might make a suggestion based on a photo someone else posted here recently... Place the test vial directly on top of the column of color swatches for the test in question. Same orientation as you have in the pictures but with the vial just a bit to the right. The test swatch color that seems to disappear or that is the least noticeable is the matching reading. The color in the vial effectively blocks transmission of that color and makes the matching swatch on the comparison sheet fade almost completely away.

I always have trouble matching the colors but with that approach even I found it easy to determine the matching color with high confidence. It looked like it would also be fairly consistent even in varying levels of background lighting.

 

If I might make a suggestion based on a photo someone else posted here recently... Place the test vial directly on top of the column of color swatches for the test in question. Same orientation as you have in the pictures but with the vial just a bit to the right. The test swatch color that seems to disappear or that is the least noticeable is the matching reading. The color in the vial effectively blocks transmission of that color and makes the matching swatch on the comparison sheet fade almost completely away.

I always have trouble matching the colors but with that approach even I found it easy to determine the matching color with high confidence. It looked like it would also be fairly consistent even in varying levels of background lighting.

I think that works for some people but Sarah86's tests are very easy to differentiate. I always recommend that people read tests the way the test developers instruct you to read them. API says to read the solution color in the test tube held vertically against a white background in bright light just like it's being done in the photo.

 

Thanks for your suggestion! I will definitely try that if I’m struggling with lighting , maybe if I need to test when it’s dark as our house lights aren’t very bright. Luckily at the moment the days are long & our conservatory is very bright until quite late

If I might make a suggestion based on a photo someone else posted here recently... Place the test vial directly on top of the column of color swatches for the test in question. Same orientation as you have in the pictures but with the vial just a bit to the right. The test swatch color that seems to disappear or that is the least noticeable is the matching reading. The color in the vial effectively blocks transmission of that color and makes the matching swatch on the comparison sheet fade almost completely away.

I always have trouble matching the colors but with that approach even I found it easy to determine the matching color with high confidence. It looked like it would also be fairly consistent even in varying levels of background lighting.[/QUO

 

HI all,

Just wanted to update you & see if everything is still running smoothly! It’s 4 days since I added the Dr Tim’s bacteria. I’ve done all the tests today after holding off for a few days.

Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 10-20ppm (hard to tell but looks a little darker than 10)
Ammonia 1-2ppm (still hasn’t dropped at all & even looks a little darker today, but may just be my imagination)
PH 7.6

Also I’ve got the API GH/KH test on Momgoose’s recommendation
GH 50-100ppm (5 drops)
KH 50-100ppm (4 drops)

Is it usual that the ammonia level still isn’t dropping at this stage?

Thanks

 

HI just re read your thread do you actually have any sort of filter sponge running or just an air stone and air pump?

 

HI just re read your thread do you actually have any sort of filter sponge running or just an air stone and air pump?

Hi, yes I’ve got a Tetra sponge filter running & the flow is still good. It’s for up to 40 litre tanks so should be more than enough

 

HI all,

Just wanted to update you & see if everything is still running smoothly! It’s 4 days since I added the Dr Tim’s bacteria. I’ve done all the tests today after holding off for a few days.

Nitrite 0.25
Nitrate 10-20ppm (hard to tell but looks a little darker than 10)
Ammonia 1-2ppm (still hasn’t dropped at all & even looks a little darker today, but may just be my imagination)
PH 7.6

Also I’ve got the API GH/KH test on Momgoose’s recommendation
GH 50-100ppm (5 drops)
KH 50-100ppm (4 drops)

Is it usual that the ammonia level still isn’t dropping at this stage?

Thanks

You're using the API Master test kit? You might want to either take a sample of your water to your lfs and have them test your ammonia or get a decent test strip for ammonia or a seachem ammonia alert disk and double check it. There either has to be something in your tank keeping your ammonia level up, or you have a faulty ammonia test solution. Refresh my memory, did you ever test your source water for ammonia? Have you tried doing a giant (75-80%) water change to see what that does to your ammonia level? Have you thoroughly vacuumed your substrate?

 

You're using the API Master test kit? You might want to either take a sample of your water to your lfs and have them test your ammonia or get a decent test strip for ammonia or a seachem ammonia alert disk and double check it. There either has to be something in your tank keeping your ammonia level up, or you have a faulty ammonia test solution. Refresh my memory, did you ever test your source water for ammonia? Have you tried doing a giant (75-80%) water change to see what that does to your ammonia level? Have you thoroughly vacuumed your substrate?

Yes I’m using the API master test kit. I’ve had the Seachem alert disk in there for over a week & that's been consistently reading 0.05ppm. I could take it to the LFS today & see what they get. Does it need to be a fresh sample or will it still read accurately after a few hours?
Tap water has zero ammonia & when I’ve done 50/80% water changes the ammonia has tested at a trace or as exepected after these.
I did a pretty thorough vacuum of the substrate & removed a lot of gunk but tried not to go overboard as I didn’t want to remove too much BB. With it being a small tank the vacuum removed a lot of water (even though it’s a nano & has a flow restricter!).
I’m tempted to vacuum again but how long does the Dr Tim’s need to be left in there to work?
Thanks for your support

 

Yes I’m using the API master test kit. I’ve had the Seachem alert disk in there for over a week & that's been consistently reading 0.05ppm. I could take it to the LFS today & see what they get. Does it need to be a fresh sample or will it still read accurately after a few hours?
Tap water has zero ammonia & when I’ve done 50/80% water changes the ammonia has tested at a trace or as exepected after these.
I did a pretty thorough vacuum of the substrate & removed a lot of gunk but tried not to go overboard as I didn’t want to remove too much BB. With it being a small tank the vacuum removed a lot of water (even though it’s a nano & has a flow restricter!).
I’m tempted to vacuum again but how long does the Dr Tim’s need to be left in there to work?
Thanks for your support

The water you take to the lfs needs to be fresh from your tank. Dr. Tim's for 48 hours in the tank before a water change. After that all your beneficial bacteria is attached to things not floating in the water. You could do a 100% change and lose no bacteria. If, after another good water change and vacuuming your ammonia goes down and stays down, you can dose it back up to 1 ppm and hold it there. Your tank is still cycling.

 

The water you take to the lfs needs to be fresh from your tank. Dr. Tim's for 48 hours in the tank before a water change. After that all your beneficial bacteria is attached to things not floating in the water. You could do a 100% change and lose no bacteria. If, after another good water change and vacuuming your ammonia goes down and stays down, you can dose it back up to 1 ppm and hold it there. Your tank is still cycling.

Thank you! I’ll do a change & vacuum tonight. When you say to wait to see if the level stays down before dosing it back up to 1ppm how long should I wait for please?

 

Thank you! I’ll do a change & vacuum tonight. When you say to wait to see if the level stays down before dosing it back up to 1ppm how long should I wait for please?

2 to 3 days. Then redose to 1ppm and watch it for 2-3 more days to see if it drops on its own after that.

 

Ok so I’ve done a good gravel clean & that took out at least 3/4 of the water with it. Left it for a couple of hours & it’s now testing 0.25 ppm. I’ll keep testing over the next few days & let you know what happens. Hopefully the tank’s clean enough now to stop it rising again!

 

Some iffy advice on here. After only 4 days your ammonia shouldn’t have dropped very much at all. When doing my fishless cycle I dosed my tank to about 4-5ppm and it took 11 days for that initial dose to drop down to 0. It took another 4 days or so after that point to begin processing the 4ppm doses within a 24 hour period. If you have noticed any chance at all, you are on the right track. Do not waste your time or energy with water changes, vacuuming, or messing with the filter. If you don't have fish or food in the tank there is legitimately no reason to gravel vac at all. Just make sure to continue testing daily until you reach 0 and then re dose the ammonia. Adding more before that point won’t help the tank and will only cause a little uncertainty in how fast your BB is processing the ammonia.

Once your tank can get rid of that ammonia in 24 hours, it’s time to start testing for nitrite. Once I was confident that my tank could process the ammonia in that time I switched to dosing it only every other day. At this point there will be plenty of nitrites existing in your tank to grow the secondary bacteria without having to dose daily. It should take a good 10 or more days for the nitrite reading to drop significantly, and again, another 4 or so days after that until your BB will be capable of processing the ammonia AND nitrite in a 24 hour period. Once you’ve reached this milestone it’s time for a massive water change and FISH!!

 

Some iffy advice on here. After only 4 days your ammonia shouldn’t have dropped very much at all. When doing my fishless cycle I dosed my tank to about 4-5ppm and it took 11 days for that initial dose to drop down to 0. It took another 4 days or so after that point to begin processing the 4ppm doses within a 24 hour period. If you have noticed any chance at all, you are on the right track. Do not waste your time or energy with water changes, vacuuming, or messing with the filter. If you don't have fish or food in the tank there is legitimately no reason to gravel vac at all. Just make sure to continue testing daily until you reach 0 and then re dose the ammonia. Adding more before that point won’t help the tank and will only cause a little uncertainty in how fast your BB is processing the ammonia.

If u had read the whole thread it has been going on longer than 4 days just saying!!

 

If u had read the whole thread it has been going on longer than 4 days just saying!!

You’re 100% correct. But still some
Iffy advice either way. But you’re correct, I did not read everything.

 

No offence intended but yes my fishless cycle took 6 weeks just hard staying patient sometimes and looking at an empty tank Haha it will get there in the end

 

You’re 100% correct. But still some
Iffy advice either way. But you’re correct, I did not read everything.

Hi, this is my 5th week of fishless cycling. The first week I started out using fishfood as I had to order bottled ammonia online & there was some delays with the delivery. I’ve had Nitrite & rising nitrate readings but no drop/ slight rise in ammonia levels. So we’ve assumed that there’s still ammonia producing waste in the substrate- hence the advice to clean the gravel.

 

You’re 100% correct. But still some
Iffy advice either way. But you’re correct, I did not read everything.

No iffy advice here. Please read the entire thread. Not all cycling can work the same way. pH, GH, KH, water temperature all can influence how well and how fast nitrifying bacteria are produced and how effective they are at processing nitrogen compounds.

 

2 to 3 days. Then redose to 1ppm and watch it for 2-3 more days to see if it drops on its own after that.

Hi, sorry just a quick question! The ammonia level is 0 now. Am I ok to leave it as it is or do I need to redose? Just worried about starving the BB!

 

Hi, sorry just a quick question! The ammonia level is 0 now. Am I ok to leave it as it is or do I need to redose? Just worried about starving the BB!

If it is 0 then yes can re dose to 1ppm then see how it goes