Fish TB (Tuberculosis) or what at this point

Hey guys.

So its been pretty sad in the realm of one of my 10 G's

About what seems like about 4 months ago (but maybe even before) a chain of fish began to mysteriously die

At first i brushed it off a little since they were my CPD's and i supposed that they just got an fights (and we're talking like 2-3 deaths btw). And sometimes CPD's are weak when they first arrive.

It wasn't tell my Honey Gourami died where I began to become suspicious. No signs of disease, eating well. All of a sudden, for about 2 days was lethargic and pale and seemed to have what was an ulcer (similar to a fish tb Type) and just died.

I did an "autopsy"... And pretty much nothing

A few endlers died, a couple more cpd's, and two hillstreams.....and no symptoms of true disease just random. (Got crooked spines as well with ulcers...so fish tb symptoms)
At that point my research led me to thinking it was Fish tb.
Everything seeemed to add up and pointed at fish tb.

Later on my female betta mahachai died choking on something (poor girl)
And later my male betta mahachai died similarly to the honey gourami. (Paled out, lethargic, ulcer, and done)

Luckily all those months ago I didn't give my friend the Cory's that i was planning on giving him for the longest time because i said that he should establish his tank more and I should wait out and make sure its not TB.

2 more hillstream loaches dispeared

And here we are.

2 Endlers, 3 Cory's, Nerite snail, and a new Wild Female Betta (ordered her before I determined tb) , ADF, and one female cpd.

Ive been using gloves and keeping myself safe from mycobacterium marium or whatever this is

The corys are perfect and strong per usual (and one is 6-7 years old)

Endlers are being endlers (so poppy and all)
ADF, always looking for food as usual haha
Female betta is great

Although the female cpd seems could have a crooked spine and an ulcer but i need to do a better check

Its been over a month or possibly two months since a fish death and everything is running smoothly.

And yeah
(If there is another death I intend on sending the body to a lab for testing)
Whats going on with my tank???



Follow up: sometimes i dont get Fish tb as a disease both on a fish public health and human public health standpoint.....If fish are able to carry it for the longest time and spread it super easily than why hasn't it spread like wildfire throughout the market and how have humans with open cuts hands not gotten it since theroertically it could be everywhere (aquatically)?

 

I'm not sure of one thing here; were you constantly adding fish throughout this timeline?

3x+ CPD
1x honey gourami
2x beta fish
3x+ endlers
4x hillstreams

All died,
The tank still has
3x Cory
2xEndlers
African dwarf frog
Large snails
CPD
One new beta

And all of these were in a 10 gallon together (minus one new betta) for 4 months before anything went wrong?

 

Sorry I should have described this better and given more context

I started the tank about 14 months ago (but have fish keeping experience beyond that)
Originally this tank had a good stocking, but my friends were moving, and I needed to keep some of their fish for them (and my other friend was going to setup a tank for that) (thus why I have cories in the first place)

It was overstocked definitely but I managed a way to keep it clean with only 5 nitrates (due to pothos and aquatic plants). I also went to fishlore members for in a way approval for this and most seemed to agree.

The timeline would be too long to explain, but no I never added fish on the way. I might have added a CPD or two when I saw the first inital CPD death (but just assumed that it was the weakling in the school).

The Honey Gourami and Wild betta pair were never in the tank at the same time. After the Honey gourami died I was definitly suspicous but still didn't think TB for some reason (as this Honey gourami was always off for some reason) thus I ordered the Wild bettas and added them. It was after that when I really realized TB.

Stocking wise the only questionable thing were the Cories, but they were supposed to be temporary (friend took A WHILE and now I can't give them of course)

So stocking wise it was orginally high and slowly decreased. (as far as stocking the tank was never cramped, never ran into issues, low nitrogen content, low excess Macros, and no health problems related to stocking.

 

Sorry I should have described this better and given more context

I started the tank about 14 months ago (but have fish keeping experience beyond that)
Originally this tank had a good stocking, but my friends were moving, and I needed to keep some of their fish for them (and my other friend was going to setup a tank for that) (thus why I have cories in the first place)

It was overstocked definitely but I managed a way to keep it clean with only 5 nitrates (due to pothos and aquatic plants). I also went to fishlore members for in a way approval for this and most seemed to agree.

The timeline would be too long to explain, but no I never added fish on the way. I might have added a CPD or two when I saw the first inital CPD death (but just assumed that it was the weakling in the school).

The Honey Gourami and Wild betta pair were never in the tank at the same time. After the Honey gourami died I was definitly suspicous but still didn't think TB for some reason (as this Honey gourami was always off for some reason) thus I ordered the Wild bettas and added them. It was after that when I really realized TB.

Stocking wise the only questionable thing were the Cories, but they were supposed to be temporary (friend took A WHILE and now I can't give them of course)

So stocking wise it was orginally high and slowly decreased. (as far as stocking the tank was never cramped, never ran into issues, low nitrogen content, low excess Macros, and no health problems related to stocking.

But how exactly can you say "never ran into issues and no healthproblems related to stocking" when half of that stocking "slowly decreased" ? Can't exactly wrap my mind around that?

 

But how exactly can you say "never ran into issues and no healthproblems related to stocking" when half of that stocking "slowly decreased" ? Can't exactly wrap my mind around that?

By stocking related dieasese issues (once again poorly described by me), i meant the prior. Overcrowding (or rather anything) caused no OTHER dieases prior to this happening. The overstocking could have resulted in the fish tb out break but who knows..... When i meant no health problems related to stocking, there were no disease in the tank until this disease

 

Overstocking only works if you do 2-3 water changes a week

I had my silver dollars in a 36 gallon for a year before I got the 55 set up for them.

if tank looked bad, I did a water change that day

Fish TB is noticeable - very thin tail, no vitality, etc. I just dealt with an elephant era betta who went south pretty darn fast. It's like a wasting disease.

IMO - it's like staph - everywhere in nature but stress makes it active rather than passive in environment because host's immune system is lowered by stress. Just my take on it.

My little elephant ear wh had it was always defensive, heightened aggression. She behaved liek an alpha, but due to size she really wasn't.

that stress lead to the outbreak for her. Too much stress

clean the tank, properly stock it and test weekly.

pathogens are everywhere in nature

less stress, healthy fish
they are prey animals like rabbits pretty much to larger fish

skip snail in 10 gallon. way too much waste unless it's a fully planted tank imo.

 

The tank is fully planted with a ton of pothos as well and an AC30 and sponge filter. Im usually around 5 nitrates and keep up with once a week WC @ 50% so I feel like water quality isnt the issue
For all the fish that died i definitely could connect to stress (in a way) like cpds stressed because pecking order, and male honey gourami got stressed for some reason after i removed his male honey friend, male betta possibly stressed after his female betta died from chocking.

Also the snail is a nerite if that makes a difference.

So than what tb wise.
Do i continue tank life as normal...add fish if needed..... Remove/give away the fish I was planning on giving
Or should i remain cautious and keep things closed
Can i go forth with my plan to switch to a 29(and add more fish in there with current fish)

 

I mean if you're dead sure it's mycobacterium I would recommend you sterilize (kill everything).

I would confirm with a professional that can run an acid stain on slice taken from a specimen first. It's highly likely in my opinion that you do likely have many other infections to worry about, and not just a single super infection. Not all of the fish and frogs get along great, they all take bites(frogs claw fish in the regular when forced to live together) out of each other and the stress causes infections. It never hurts to have a stain run off you can afford it but if you can't do that it's up to you. You need to risk cross contamination to yourself and other tanks if you're positive of your diagnosis, and I wouldn't.

A tool that can help with multiple infections is a good UV sterilizer, in a tiny tank it helps to have it set up externally so it doesn't take up space. With that running at a good turnover rate you would be able to figure out if it's a water born issue as the sterilizer will end that mode of transmission in most cases, then you can separate, isolate and treat the symptoms as they need to be treated with the species all separated. There are not many legitimate treatments I know of that can be used in a standard dosage across the array of different requirements the fish and frog in this tank would have.

 

Im not sure if I am fully positive it is tb. its just that a lot of signs in diseased fish pointed towards tb. I actually just recently bought a pretty good internal uv sterilizer (so that might be a little annoying to see in the tank but its fine for now). I'll most likely set that up tomorrow or Friday.

So based on my interpatation of what you said, is it possible that Fish tb has gotten to the fish, but most died because of stress, or secondary infection and by adding the uv sterilizer I would be reducing the chance of my fish dying.

Ive thought about Euthanasia, but I would need to wait for another fish death and send a sample into a lab, in order to confirm its TB before I even touch Euthanasia.

 

By stocking related dieasese issues (once again poorly described by me), i meant the prior. Overcrowding (or rather anything) caused no OTHER dieases prior to this happening. The overstocking could have resulted in the fish tb out break but who knows..... When i meant no health problems related to stocking, there were no disease in the tank until this disease

Still I don't exactly understand what you mean. There simply always will be a certain point in time that overstocking will cause issues. One can't say that till that moment overstocking wasn't an issue cause there weren't issues till then.

Also nitrates stabil at 5 doesn't tell a everything about stocking or wellbeing of a tank.

Then last but not least : If there is any doubt about things try not to pinpoint on an assumption what your facing.
Try to let other members and more experienced members to give an objective ID of the issue your facing.
Place pics and give a description on which that ID can based.

We'll not euthanise fish without being sure for 100% I'd say nor adding new fish. Caution is always good

 

Still I don't exactly understand what you mean. There simply always will be a certain point in time that overstocking will cause issues. One can't say that till that moment overstocking wasn't an issue cause there weren't issues till then.

Also nitrates stabil at 5 doesn't tell a everything about stocking or wellbeing of a tank.

Then last but not least : If there is any doubt about things try not to pinpoint on an assumption what your facing.
Try to let other members and more experienced members to give an objective ID of the issue your facing.
Place pics and give a description on which that ID can based.

We'll not euthanise fish without being sure for 100% I'd say nor adding new fish. Caution is always good

I see and understand your point in the first half of your post. Thanks for making me realize that and it very well could be true that overstocking led up to fish tb. (I was more just saying that I didn't experience anything prior to this but I still wasn't excluding the fact that overstocking may have led to this) Although this being said before I would be fine with overstocking since my nitrates were low and my fish wellbeing seemed great, but I have been moving away from this concept, thus planning on changing to a 29G. (and perhaps would have if not for this situation arising).

That being said I feel like fish tb is just what research on my end has predicted (but am still trying to look for other possible reasons), and I never fully solidified that my tank has fish tb (in fact the sole reason of creating this thread was to let other members and more experienced members ID the issue.

I thought I gave a good description earlier on some of my fish's symptoms
; Pale/Discoloration, lethargic, very random occurrence (kinda all of a sudden), an ulcer or two (usually on the head but sometimes other places), disfigured/deformed spine (curved) (mostly in CPD's).
These symptoms all seemed to be strong signs of TB which has led me thus far to believe it is TB, however my Diagnosis is not 100% and/or could not even be correct thus why I came to you guys in the first place (otherwise why would I have created this thread if my intention was to be closed minded)

 

I see and understand your point in the first half of your post. Thanks for making me realize that and it very well could be true that overstocking led up to fish tb. (I was more just saying that I didn't experience anything prior to this but I still wasn't excluding the fact that overstocking may have led to this)

That being said I feel like fish tb is just what research on my end has predicted (but am still trying to look for other possible reasons), and I never fully solidified that my tank has fish tb (in fact the sole reason of creating this thread was to let other members and more experienced members ID the issue.

I thought I gave a good description earlier on some of my fish's symptoms
; Pale/Discoloration, lethargic, very random occurrence (kinda all of a sudden), an ulcer or two (usually on the head but sometimes other places), disfigured/deformed spine (curved) (mostly in CPD's).
These symptoms all seemed to be strong signs of TB which has led me thus far to believe it is TB, however my Diagnosis is not 100% and/or could not even be correct thus why I came to you guys in the first place (otherwise why would I have created this thread if my intention was to be closed minded)

You defintely could be correct, but as said in this way you're more or less denying other members to make an objective ID (if possible of course).
If you don't like others to do so (you're free to do so) then this thread has no use really.

Several signs your describing could definitely be TB but also several other diseases or issues.
Describing things always is quite subjective. Asking others what they'd advice based on that isn't the way I think.

PS : CPD's don't get stressed by establishing a pecking order. Natural behaviour doesn't cause stress, being in the wrong environment, with wrong tankmates, in an overstocked tank, etc... does.

 

I thought I gave a good description earlier on some of my fish's symptoms
; Pale/Discoloration, lethargic, very random occurrence (kinda all of a sudden), an ulcer or two (usually on the head but sometimes other places), disfigured/deformed spine (curved) (mostly in CPD's).
These symptoms all seemed to be strong signs of TB which has led me thus far to believe it is TB, however my Diagnosis is not 100% and/or could not even be correct thus why I came to you guys in the first place (otherwise why would I have created this thread if my intention was to be closed minded)

Written descriptions are, frankly, worthless. For one they are filtered through you, and you could be biased and secondly you can miss things people with an eye for fish diseases would not.

So: Pictures or even a video of the fish and the tank will be tons more helpful.

 

Written descriptions are, frankly, worthless. For one they are filtered through you, and you could be biased and secondly you can miss things people with an eye for fish diseases would not.

So: Pictures or even a video of the fish and the tank will be tons more helpful.

I would provide a picture but I currently dont have a fish that fits any of these descriptions (or rather fit the descriptions for any disease since all of the current living fish are externally healthy)

 

In that case I'll hold it as I do with eyewhitness reports on the Sasquatch: Unintentionally biased info, that doesn't help the case. Not your fault, that's just a general problem. Hindsight-ID is almost never possible.

Still a picture of a tank in it's entirety is often helpful, as is filling out the template.

Otherwise you will have to wait until something happens again.

 

You defintely could be correct, but as said in this way you're more or less denying other members to make an objective ID (if possible of course).
If you don't like others to do so (you're free to do so) then this thread has no use really.

Several signs your describing could definitely be TB but also several other diseases or issues.
Describing things always is quite subjective. Asking others what they'd advice based on that isn't the way I think.

PS : CPD's don't get stressed by establishing a pecking order. Natural behaviour doesn't cause stress, being in the wrong environment, with wrong tankmates, in an overstocked tank, etc... does.

Im not quite sure how Im denying other members form helping me ID. Once again wouldn't setup a thread where I would reject other people's opinions when I am asking for help. I never disagreed with anyone and don't look to become argumentative. My hunch was TB and I made this thread so people could work with me and help diagnose in anyway possible.

In that case I'll hold it as I do with eyewhitness reports on the Sasquatch: Unintentionally biased info, that doesn't help the case. Not your fault, that's just a general problem. Hindsight-ID is almost never possible.

Still a picture of a tank in it's entirety is often helpful, as is filling out the template.

Otherwise you will have to wait until something happens again.

Ok sounds good but would you like the picture of a particular fish orr??
I can fill out the template as well (in a few hours or so) to help detail the written info.

 

I would provide a picture but I currently dont have a fish that fits any of these descriptions (or rather fit the descriptions for any disease since all of the current living fish are externally healthy)

Then it is likely not TB

 

Then it is likely not TB

Is this because if it were to be TB the rate of death would be more constant? (There was a good gap between deaths and all)

 

Ok sounds good but would you like the picture of a particular fish orr??

Full tank, high resolution, so one can actually recognize things.
It may even help if you get some of the fish singularly, but then please not just 2-3, rather 5-6 at least, for comparison. Try to keep down the urge of only showing the fish that look great and/or really bad. Randomize somehow for a least biased overview.

 

Im not quite sure how Im denying other members form helping me ID. Once again wouldn't setup a thread where I would reject other people's opinions when I am asking for help. I never disagreed with anyone and don't look to become argumentative. My hunch was TB and I made this thread so people could work with me and help diagnose in anyway possible.

Ok sounds good but would you like the picture of a particular fish orr??
I can fill out the template as well (in a few hours or so) to help detail the written info.

I think you don't understand the intention of my post.

I'll give another example : Again and again there are threads like "My neon is sick, I think it is NTD". They are describing the issues faced "white lumps (what kind of lumps), swimming erritacally (for everyone different) , acting "strange" (what is strange), a bit of colorloss (what is a bit / which part), etc... There is not one objective sign of NTD in these and can be sticked to many other issues as well. But the OP puts everyone in a kind of tunnel with NTD at the end.

You're pointing towards tb and subjectively (is this English) describing symptoms that could be TB but again several other issues.

The fact that the remaining fish are healthy tells me TB is doubtfull in this case. Euthanising healthy looking fish is a no go to me.

So I am not telling you're wrong but please give complete and objective info (with pics), ask an open(minded) question (don't put people in the "tunnel") and let members discuss (together with you) all possibilities.

That's the way to get to a general outcome and possible sollution / a good advise in my opinion.

Is this because if it were to be TB the rate of death would be more constant? (There was a good gap between deaths and all)

A TB outbreak in my opinion wouldn't go on its own without treatment and I'd expect more unhealthy fish right now.
I personally THINK by the dead of fish there likely has established a new kind of balance in the (earlier overstocked) tank.
So I wouldn't add anything at this moment.

 

I think you don't understand the intention of my post.

I'll give another example : Again and again there are threads like "My neon is sick, I think it is NTD". They are describing the issues faced "white lumps (what kind of lumps), swimming erritacally (for everyone different) , acting "strange" (what is strange), a bit of colorloss (what is a bit / which part), etc... There is not one objective sign of NTD in these and can be sticked to many other issues as well. But the OP puts everyone in a kind of tunnel with NTD at the end.

You're pointing towards tb and subjectively (is this English) describing symptoms that could be TB but again several other issues.

The fact that the remaining fish are healthy tells me TB is doubtfull in this case. Euthanising healthy looking fish is a no go to me.

So I am not telling you're wrong but please give complete and objective info (with pics), ask an open(minded) question (don't put people in the "tunnel") and let members discuss (together with you) all possibilities.

That's the way to get to a general outcome and possible sollution / a good advise in my opinion.

A TB outbreak in my opinion wouldn't go on its own without treatment and I'd expect more unhealthy fish right now.
I personally THINK by the dead of fish there likely has established a new kind of balance in the (earlier overstocked) tank.
So I wouldn't add anything at this moment.

Ok I totally get you now. And yes i agree with the whole tunnel thing as I've seen people do that as well. Next time ill try to frame my question better! Thank you!

Also lets say I was to upgrade to that 29g (maybe even bigger), I would still (from a pathogen and tank health standpoint) be able to add new fish, correct(if i was thinking its not TB)?

Also (and yes again i know its extremely hard to tell since I provided no pictures or anything) but could you have a general idea of what this could have been (or does that list extend for a long time)

And MacZ yes I will still provide photos.

 

Ok I totally get you now. And yes i agree with the whole tunnel thing as I've seen people do that as well. Next time ill try to frame my question better! Thank you!

Also lets say I was to upgrade to that 29g (maybe even bigger), I would still (from a pathogen and tank health standpoint) be able to add new fish, correct(if i was thinking its not TB)?

Also (and yes again i know its extremely hard to tell since I provided no pictures or anything) but could you have a general idea of what this could have been (or does that list extend for a long time)

And MacZ yes I will still provide photos.

First upgrade an put your current stocking in. If the fish stay healthy AND there appears to be some extra space I'd add some new fish.

As said I think the overstocking caused these issues but we can't be sure.
Not many lethal diseases go on their own (it past that point).
But we might never know for sure.

 

I couldn't put it in better words than DD. We're on the same page there.

Also lets say I was to upgrade to that 29g (maybe even bigger), I would still (from a pathogen and tank health standpoint) be able to add new fish, correct(if i was thinking its not TB)?

I would give it a safety period of 1-3 months after the upgrade without losses or signs of disease. That's what I usually do before replacing losses. Have patience. Please.

Also (and yes again i know its extremely hard to tell since I provided no pictures or anything) but could you have a general idea of what this could have been (or does that list extend for a long time)

Long list of possibilities. I'm going as far as saying: Likely opportunistic microorganisms, that usually wouldn't cause any harm, have taken advantage of fish with weak health. It's very possible the survivors just have a sufficiently good immune system to not be affected by them. But this is such a general and common thing... you could call this a default answer. Because the "list" would include simply "everything".

Very often we as hobbyists have to be content with open answers and unclear results. Most of us have no access to laboratories and if so, it's often too expensive.
I have to admit: Unless you have pricey stock (either high numbers because you're a breeder or expensive individual fish like Koi or certain monsterfish) it's not worth the money or the trouble to find a vet that treats (or even specializes in) fish.
I, for instance, know in my country of almost 90 million, with one of the biggest ornamental fish industries in the world there are only a handful vets that treat fish. And hiring them just for a diagnosis would cost me more than all my aquarium stuff combined, including stock, ist worth.

 

So turns out im not able to get a 29 gallon tank.

Originally I was planning a heated 100 Gallon outdoor pond that would be converted into a hydroponics system but ive shut myself down on that idea

My friend already has new fish and cant give the cories to him

As of right now my fish stocking is very wacky (and rather my tank looks tacky as well in terms of aquascaping) so i plan a fresh new start

Im pretty commited into keeping that Female Mahachai betta for the 10G and buy her male mahachai along with her.

A rather interesting opportunity came up with my lfs came up where i can give my cories to them and they would put them in one of there show tanks.... Well this show tank is actually there freshwater plants display tank but non of the fish are on sale. That would be interesting just because I know they're in good hands and can see them often. That being said from a pathology standpoint im not sure if giving my fish from a tank with a unknown disease into an lfs display tank where plants are sold and potentially spreading it and putting the pathogen on the plants to be sold is definitely not a good idea.

If im being honest i have a pretty strong sentiment to these cories. They came from my friends tank who when they moved had to give with me. One of them is about 6 to 7 years old, one is about 4 years old and the other is about 2. In fact i remember going to the lfs with my neighbors to get the 4 year old one and remember her as a little cory. Than when my neighbors moved I reunited with them and i even got babies from them. Out of all my fish the cories and my female koi betta (in a different tank) are the ones i show most sentiment to.

This being said I know that they would be happier if in a larger tank and that at some point i just gotta remember that they're fish that cant show and can't process any emotion towards me.
Another option is literally setting up a rubbermaid indoor stock tank and giving them a LARGE amount of space to do their thing, but i just dont see that working long term.

The third option would be to wait for my cousin to get a fish tank and despite it being his first time, i would be glad giving it to someone who I know and someone I know would love them.

In terms of the ADF my cousin could also take her (but probably not in the same tank as the cories), but honestly it would be better off just staying with me since I won't have any other bottom feeders (and the ADF is pretty awesome)

The endlers may also go to my cousin, but may be joining my guppy tank (but probably not since i dont want to overload with males).
I wouldn't be surprised if i ended up keeping them in the current tank as well. (as that might seem like the leading option right now)

The CPD i would most likely give away for keep depending on what the diesease picture is like. (Prob give away if everything is good since it's a single cpd).

Overall after the rescape I will wait a little bit before i add or give away any fish to ensure that they're all still healthy.

Although a future stocking plan would look like this:
Betta Mahachai Pair (so add the male)
8-10 small schooling fish (leaning chili rasboras)
2 endlers (the same)
ADF (the same)
IF giving away the cories takes a longer process than I would simply not add the Schooling fish.

I think this stocking with overfiltering (Uv sterilizer w/sponge, AC30, sponge filter) and water column feeder plants (my focus for this scape) and pothos along with weekly 40-50% WC's would look good

*But yes before addition or removing I will wait for a good amount of time however the rescape will happen soon*

 

If it is TB they will likely keep dying and it will be hard to know which are infected and which aren't. There are also different strains of TB.

Marinum causing ulcers. Haemophilium causing wasting.

I managed to QT all the sick and remove all the endlers infected with m. haemophilia tho still had heavy loses because all in QT died.

Mycobacteriosis in Zebrafish Colonies

 

If it is TB they will likely keep dying and it will be hard to know which are infected and which aren't. There are also different strains of TB.

Marinum causing ulcers. Haemophilium causing wasting.

I managed to QT all the sick and remove all the endlers infected with m. haemophilia tho still had heavy loses because all in QT died.

Mycobacteriosis in Zebrafish Colonies

I haven't seen deaths in a while so maybe it is just opportunistic pathogens. (So no constant deaths type of thing at least anymore) thanks for the article it was super informative!!

Update: MacZ DoubleDutch... It looks like i can do a 20 Long.... Would that be a sufficient size to keep the cories in?