29 Gallon Tank Fish keep dying with no obvious signs

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 29 gallon
How long has the tank been running? almost a week
Does it have a filter? tidal 75, sponge filter
Does it have a heater? yes
What is the water temperature? 77
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.): 7 diamond tetra, 6 kuhli loaches, 1 pearl gourami, 1 apisto left

Maintenance
How often do you change the water? once a week, 40% planned. Have done 90% (explanation at the bottom)
How much of the water do you change? 40%
What do you use to treat your water? prime
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? yes

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? yes, processed 4ppm ammonia within 24 hours
What do you use to test the water? API water testing kit
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0-5
pH: 6.8-7

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? twice a day
How much do you feed your fish? enough for them to be done in 1min
What brand of food do you feed your fish? hikari frozen, sinking wafer, micro sinking wafer
Do you feed frozen? yes
Do you feed freeze-dried foods? no

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? 5 days
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? first day when the whole group of hatchetfish died within 24 hours.
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms?
Have you started any treatment for the illness?
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase?
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all?

Explain your emergency situation in detail: I made a post regarding my whole new group of hatchetfish dying in a previous post. It was "concluded" as possible acclimation issue. I've been slowly having other fish unexpectedly dying as well...a kuhli loach, diamond tetra, and today a apisto panduro. I'm unsure what exactly is attributing this. Water parameters seem fine. All I can think of is toxin poisoning possibly from a paint job that I did when I helped my friend. I mean I washed my hands afterward but now I'm thinking it might be due to that. I did a 90% water change since then and things seemed to be okay until the apisto passing this morning. I put in some carbon since then to see if I can remove more toxin from the water. I'm at a loss of what to say or do.

 

Hi, you say your tank is cycled, after almost one week? How did you do this? did you seed the filter with used filter media? You've put a lot of stock into a 29 gallon tank in under a week, even with a fully cycled tank that's not good practice as the BB colony doesn't have a chance to grow so you'll get ammonia spikes. My thought is you've gone too far too fast & I would doubt that your 0 & 0 readings for ammonia & nitrites is correct.

 

Hi, you say your tank is cycled, after almost one week? How did you do this? did you seed the filter with used filter media? You've put a lot of stock into a 29 gallon tank in under a week, even with a fully cycled tank that's not good practice as the BB colony doesn't have a chance to grow so you'll get ammonia spikes. My thought is you've gone too far too fast & I would doubt that your 0 & 0 readings for ammonia & nitrites is correct.

I did seed the filter with used filter material. I cycled the tank for 3 and a half weeks. I misunderstood the question about how long was the tank set up as in how long the tank has fish in.

I believe the 0/0 readings are correct though since I also have my fish store tested the water. I've also been doing those test for quite a while. My original intention of stocking the tank was my expectation of the tank was able to process enough 4ppm overnight.

 

Ahh, right that makes more sense. I wouldn't think it's anything you've introduced on your hands especially if you washed them especially with the volume of water you've changed. Did you give the dead fish a good examination when you removed them, anything unusual about them?

 

Ahh, right that makes more sense. I wouldn't think it's anything you've introduced on your hands especially if you washed them especially with the volume of water you've changed. Did you give the dead fish a good examination when you removed them, anything unusual about them?

I'm going to take a photo of the apisto that just passed. I'm not an expert but I don't see anything out of the ordinary. They also don't have any warning signs. They would literally just bounce around like struggling to swim and then passed away an hour or two afterward.

PS. The photo is graphic.

 

I've just gone back & had a look at your original post about the hatchet fish & I'm starting to think the problem started with them & has now infected your other fish, you may have introduced some sort of disease with the hatchets.

 

Just an idea , when you did the wc did you definately add dechlorinator ?

 

Hmm, the only thing I notice with the dead Apisto is that it's really washed out colour wise, that's normally a sign of stress but I'm at a loss as to how that would translate into a die off of your other fish especially as they're from different species.

 

Just an idea , when you did the wc did you definately add dechlorinator ?

I did. I added 1.5x of the amount as instructed. 2 drops per gallon I ended up dose 80 drops and did it in 20 drops increment.

Hmm, the only thing I notice with the dead Apisto is that it's really washed out colour wise, that's normally a sign of stress but I'm at a loss as to how that would translate into a die off of your other fish especially as they're from different species.

I definitely see that as well. Granted they are juvenile so they weren't that colorful to begin with. The sad part was that they were coloring up throughout the past few days until today. I'm debating if I should change the water again if it is toxin. I've never encountered something like this for my other tanks. I'm very stuck on the toxin idea because it's the thing that I can come up with that would explain this cross specie death over the last few days.

 

I did. I added 1.5x of the amount as instructed. 2 drops per gallon I ended up dose 80 drops and did it in 20 drops increment.

I definitely see that as well. Granted they are juvenile so they weren't that colorful to begin with. The sad part was that they were coloring up throughout the past few days until today. I'm debating if I should change the water again if it is toxin. I've never encountered something like this for my other tanks. I'm very stuck on the toxin idea because it's the thing that I can come up with that would explain this cross specie death over the last few days.

Maybe but I'm at a loss as to what the toxin could be, is there anything else that you can think of that's changed since the dying started? Nobody used any aerosols around the tank? new plants or décor added? Any unusual odours from the tank? Anything different about the room the tank's in?

 

Maybe but I'm at a loss as to what the toxin could be, is there anything else that you can think of that's changed since the dying started? Nobody used any aerosols around the tank? new plants or décor added? Any unusual odours from the tank? Anything different about the room the tank's in?

I painted my friend's house without gloves. I made sure I cleaned my hands but wasn't sure if that was enough.

 

I answered in the other thread. The phenomenon we can see here is known where I live as "Bakterielle Unverträglichkeit" (bacterial intolerance), which would better be translated as "opportunistic unspecific bacterial infection".

When fish are newly introduced to a tank they have to deal with a lot of strains of bacteria their immune systems don't know yet. As the stress of catch, transport and acclimation can be significant and has negative influence on the immune response, that's probably why the hatchetfish didn't make it.

Now the peculiar thing is... this can also be happening in the other direction, when new, already diseased fish, introduce a new strain of bacteria. In such cases, while some of the new fish are the first, older residents of the tank might be affected a week or two later. As with other... infectious diseases we all heard of, at one point all fish come in contact with it. Some die, some survive.

Additionally this is a new tank. It's far from balanced. The addition of that many fish in such a short time can have negative impact, even if it's not cycle related. And this seems to be the case, as with the pH of this tank ammonia would be highly toxic and ALL fish would be affected. But we are dealing with the fish dyeing one by one.

And now also looking at the dead apisto I see a concave stomach. I am pretty sure the source of all the fish is a bad one.

Also... where do the Kuhli loaches suddenly come from? Those where not listed only a few days ago. Did you lose all hatchetfish and then add more fish to a tank with ongoing problems?

HKsai
Could you please give us the timeline of the tank? From setup until today? Only what you did, no interpretations, no tangents, just what you did when. Like "Date: Did hardscape and planting" or "Date1 to Date2: Cycling" "Date: Added 10 fish." I want to get an impression without narrative.

 

I answered in the other thread. The phenomenon we can see here is known where I live as "Bakterielle Unverträglichkeit" (bacterial intolerance), which would better be translated as "opportunistic unspecific bacterial infection".

When fish are newly introduced to a tank they have to deal with a lot of strains of bacteria their immune systems don't know yet. As the stress of catch, transport and acclimation can be significant and has negative influence on the immune response, that's probably why the hatchetfish didn't make it.

Now the peculiar thing is... this can also be happening in the other direction, when new, already diseased fish, introduce a new strain of bacteria. In such cases, while some of the new fish are the first, older residents of the tank might be affected a week or two later. As with other... infectious diseases we all heard of, at one point all fish come in contact with it. Some die, some survive.

Additionally this is a new tank. It's far from balanced. The addition of that many fish in such a short time can have negative impact, even if it's not cycle related. And this seems to be the case, as with the pH of this tank ammonia would be highly toxic and ALL fish would be affected. But we are dealing with the fish dyeing one by one.

And now also looking at the dead apisto I see a concave stomach. I am pretty sure the source of all the fish is a bad one.

Also... where do the Kuhli loaches suddenly come from? Those where not listed only a few days ago. Did you lose all hatchetfish and then add more fish to a tank with ongoing problems?

HKsai
Could you please give us the timeline of the tank? From setup until today? Only what you did, no interpretations, no tangents, just what you did when. Like "Date: Did hardscape and planting" or "Date1 to Date2: Cycling" "Date: Added 10 fish." I want to get an impression without narrative.

Thinking about a bacterial infection, would it be good for me to administer antibiotics like maracyn.

I got the kuhli loaches when they gave me credit for the hatchetfish. That was Tuesday, two days after I put the fish in on Sunday morning.

I started cycling the tank on 3/4. I put plants probably late February. The tank was pretty much done cycling 3/21 but I was flying out on a trip on 3/22 so my mom was dosing ammonia twice during that week until I came back on Saturday (3/26). I did a final dose of 4ppm ammonia that day and was processed to only nitrate by 3/27 morning. THat's when I added the original group of fish (diamond tetra, pearl gourami, pair of apisto, and hatchet). The hatchet died in the next two days. Went back to the LFS on Tuesday (3/29) and got the kuhli loaches. One kuhli loach and diamond tetra died on Wednesday (3/30) and then a the male apisto today (4/1).

 

Thinking about a bacterial infection, would it be good for me to administer antibiotics like maracyn.

No. The fish will sadly have to go through this. Also if I should be not right on this, you only make it worse that way. The whole system is not yet stable enough. A dose of antibiotics now migth actually kill off some of your filter microfauna (essentially cycle problems) and we don't want that to happen. So please abstain from using antibiotics.

I got the kuhli loaches when they gave me credit for the hatchetfish. That was Tuesday, two days after I put the fish in on Sunday morning.

For the future: After such losses wait at least 1 month (yes, read that right) until you add new fish and if you get store credit invest in dry goods, tech gimmicks or plants. Never immediately get more fish from the same source.

I started cycling the tank on 3/4. I put plants probably late February. The tank was pretty much done cycling 3/21 but I was flying out on a trip on 3/22 so my mom was dosing ammonia twice during that week until I came back on Saturday (3/26). I did a final dose of 4ppm ammonia that day and was processed to only nitrate by 3/27 morning. THat's when I added the original group of fish (diamond tetra, pearl gourami, pair of apisto, and hatchet). The hatchet died in the next two days. Went back to the LFS on Tuesday (3/29) and got the kuhli loaches. One kuhli loach and diamond tetra died on Wednesday (3/30) and then a the male apisto today (4/1).

Allright, now I'm convinced it is a bad source and you added too many fish at once.

What you do now: Optimize holding conditions. Do large volume waterchanges every other day for a week, add humic substances (aka tannins) and leaf litter (3 large IALs shred to 4-8 pieces each are enough for your tank). Yes, the water will be brownish for a while, but the fish like it. Also with the waterchanges you dilute it down again anyways.

And while you do so: Observe behaviour, food intake, feces, breathing... If anything turns up that might be a symptom, write it down and after a week report back unless something drastic happens. Do not dose any actual meds until it's clear what is going on. If you can, try and get some better pictures of singular fish. At random. That will help finding out their general condition.

All the while research your fish. All of them. Thoroughly. Sites like fishbase, seriouslyfish and good ol' wikipedia, habitats, lifecycle, feeding. No retailer websites, no youtubers that are sponsored. Any resource that wants to sell you something can be considered suspicious.

 

No. The fish will sadly have to go through this. Also if I should be not right on this, you only make it worse that way. The whole system is not yet stable enough. A dose of antibiotics now migth actually kill off some of your filter microfauna (essentially cycle problems) and we don't want that to happen. So please abstain from using antibiotics.


For the future: After such losses wait at least 1 month (yes, read that right) until you add new fish and if you get store credit invest in dry goods, tech gimmicks or plants. Never immediately get more fish from the same source.


Allright, now I'm convinced it is a bad source and you added too many fish at once.

What you do now: Optimize holding conditions. Do large volume waterchanges every other day for a week, add humic substances (aka tannins) and leaf litter (3 large IALs shred to 4-8 pieces each are enough for your tank). Yes, the water will be brownish for a while, but the fish like it. Also with the waterchanges you dilute it down again anyways.

And while you do so: Observe behaviour, food intake, feces, breathing... If anything turns up that might be a symptom, write it down and after a week report back unless something drastic happens. Do not dose any actual meds until it's clear what is going on. If you can, try and get some better pictures of singular fish. At random. That will help finding out their general condition.

All the while research your fish. All of them. Thoroughly. Sites like fishbase, seriouslyfish and good ol' wikipedia, habitats, lifecycle, feeding. No retailer websites, no youtubers that are sponsored. Any resource that wants to sell you something can be considered suspicious.

Got the IAL on Amazon. Would it make the water too soft for them?

I will do big water change every other day. When you say big, are you thinking about 50% or 95%?

 

Got the IAL on Amazon. Would it make the water too soft for them?

Not significantly, but for the species you have it could be blackwater, no problem. Well except for the gourami. But as I said, a few leaves will not do much. You have a neutral pH, meaning you have measurable KH. I doubt there will be much moving.

I will do big water change every other day. When you say big, are you thinking about 50% or 95%?

50-70%. 50 is enough.

 

Seems to me like all the signs of an uncycled tank. You should be having a lot more nitrate if 4ppm ammonia was consistently getting processed

Are there any snails? How are they behaving?

 

Seems to me like all the signs of an uncycled tank. You should be having a lot more nitrate if 4ppm ammonia was consistently getting processed

Are there any snails? How are they behaving?

The tank was processing dosed 4ppm ammonia prior to adding fish. The nitrate level is the current level w with fish in it. I did a 99.9999% water change prior to putting fish in to get rid of 160ppm+ nitrate.

 

The tank was processing dosed 4ppm ammonia prior to adding fish. The nitrate level is the current level w with fish in it. I did a 99.9999% water change prior to putting fish in to get rid of 160ppm+ nitrate.

Ah ok that makes more sense.

Maybe it was some disease, maybe some toxins...really hard to say. I personally don't add schools of fish to newly cycled tanks, I always add snails and shrimp first. They are the natural indicators I use to judge water quality. It's really easy to see ammonia, low oxygen, toxicity issues etc with snails.

Afaik, hatchet fish are all wild-caught (might be different now) which means they can be weak, disease-ridden upon arrival. Do you know if the LFS kept them for at least 2 week prior to purchasing?

 

Ah ok that makes more sense.

Maybe it was some disease, maybe some toxins...really hard to say. I personally don't add schools of fish to newly cycled tanks, I always add snails and shrimp first. They are the natural indicators I use to judge water quality. It's really easy to see ammonia, low oxygen, toxicity issues etc with snails.

Afaik, hatchet fish are all wild-caught (might be different now) which means they can be weak, disease-ridden upon arrival. Do you know if the LFS kept them for at least 2 week prior to purchasing?

I apologize for not being clear. A lot of things have been going through my mind. I honestly had some pest snails that got accidentally transferred during the cycling period. They didn’t die from multiple 4ppm of ammonia dose….my LFS definitely does quarantine but am not sure how long they do them. They administer the med trio during quarantine. I honestly had never had any issues with their fish. I have a two 10 gallon and a 20 gallon with no issues before. I feel like I did something wrong but am unsure what I did wrong exactly. Maybe I contaminated the tank accidentally somehow.

 

I painted my friend's house without gloves. I made sure I cleaned my hands but wasn't sure if that was enough.

I don't think you've contaminated the tank with anything from your hands, I have to agree with MacZ & go back to my original thoughts that you've gone too far too fast, added too many fish all in one go & the hatchets have brought in some kind of disease but without a definite diagnosis medicating is pretty much useless & may cause more harm than good especially if you use any kind of antibiotic which will destroy the good bacteria in your filter as well as any bad bacteria. My advice would be to just ride this out, don't put anymore fish in the tank until it's stable, keep the water very clean, observe carefully & see what happens.

 

my LFS definitely does quarantine but am not sure how long they do them. They administer the med trio during quarantine.

The trio is a curse. Maximizes profit, but the fish tend to be less stable, especially such daisies as Apistogramma and hatchetfish. We have endless reports of people that did the trio at home and lost their fish from overmedication. Then it was just a question of time until something like this happened.

 

The trio is a curse. Maximizes profit, but the fish tend to be less stable, especially such daisies as Apistogramma and hatchetfish. We have endless reports of people that did the trio at home and lost their fish from overmedication. Then it was just a question of time until something like this happened.

I have broken down 3 giant IAL into smaller pieces. Have not lost any fish since the last one. Fingers crossed things will get stabilized.

 

Fingers crossed things will get stabilized.

They will, it just takes time and patience. Hands off for the time being besides feeding and waterchanges.

 

They will, it just takes time and patience. Hands off for the time being besides feeding and waterchanges.

lost another diamond tetra. I’m nervous that it might be internal parasites. Is there a way for me to be more vigilant about the symptoms?