Fish-in cycle questions

Momgoose56

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ok Thank you so much for your input. its a tough decision as I don't want to lose any fish but if I get danio that means more danio will be go back to the store. I'll do more research on cardinal tetras and make a decision by the time the tank is ready.
also what dechlorinater should I use when I get the TSS, I am assuming the tetra one should be fine. Tetra says not to use anything that locks out ammonia or removes chloramine 24hrs before and 7 days after.
I'd just keep using the Prime if I were you. It's a dechlorinator, dechloraminator, and will potentially protect your fish if you do have an ammonia or nitrite spike in a newly cycled tank. As far as the TSS, Just do a water change before you add the TSS, treat the whole tank with Prime, wait 24 hours, add the TSS aand then only do a water change if the ammonia/nitrite level total goes above 1ppm. Ive never seen any evidence that Prime has any effect on TSS at all. But my experience with TSS is limited to helping people on this site and my friends, I've never used it myself.
 
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hydro

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There is so much conflicting information when it comes to prime and TSS, So confusing and frustrating. I'm just going to use prime like you say and see what happens. If it doesn't work I will keep the levels in check with water changes. Hopefully the old filter media seeds the tank and I won't even have to use the stuff
 

GlennO

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I have read comments in the past from Seachem to the effect that, even when bound in an inert state to Prime, sufficient ammonia is still available as a food source for bacteria.

Edit: I found the comment:

"Prime converts ammonia into a complexed iminium salt. This salt is a nitrogenous compound that can still be utilized by aerobic bacteria. In the same way they consume ammonia, these bacteria consume the iminium salt and release nitrite as a byproduct. Prime will also bind with nitrite and nitrate, however, it will not prevent bacteria from consuming these compounds as well".
 

Momgoose56

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There is so much conflicting information when it comes to prime and TSS, So confusing and frustrating. I'm just going to use prime like you say and see what happens. If it doesn't work I will keep the levels in check with water changes. Hopefully the old filter media seeds the tank and I won't even have to use the stuff
Be sure and read my whole post above. If you do it that way you shouldn't have a problem. Oh, and happy recent birthday! Your the same age as my grandson (January 2000). He has fish and is impatient also... :rolleyes:
 

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First off of you added around half of the media from your from your brothers tank you are probably already cycled or pretty much close to it.

Secondly false positive readings are common and most test have an error range of 0.5 s0 your point 0.25 could be 0.

What i would do is just leave the tank alone and not add prime and just test the water to make sure there isnt a spike in anything. I would only add prime and do a water change if the ammonia goes above 0.5.
 
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hydro

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Be sure and read my whole post above. If you do it that way you shouldn't have a problem. Oh, and happy recent birthday! Your the same age as my grandson (January 2000). He has fish and is impatient also... :rolleyes:
Thanks! How many years have you been keeping fish? I started learning about fish keeping when I was 11 and sorta lost intrest when I was 14. Recently aquired a new tank and now I am getting more obsessed with the hobby than ever.
I have read comments in the past from Seachem to the effect that, even when bound in an inert state to Prime, sufficient ammonia is still available as a food source for bacteria.

Edit: I found the comment:

"Prime converts ammonia into a complexed iminium salt. This salt is a nitrogenous compound that can still be utilized by aerobic bacteria. In the same way they consume ammonia, these bacteria consume the iminium salt and release nitrite as a byproduct. Prime will also bind with nitrite and nitrate, however, it will not prevent bacteria from consuming these compounds as well".
well this is what tetra says.

In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the food the bacteria require to live.

Doesn't specifically mention prime. The only way that this can be true is if somehow prime affects the "special stabilized solution of ammonia". Even if so if you have fish in the tank there should be some ammonia to feed the bacteria. This could just be tetra trying to make you buy their water conditioner.

First off of you added around half of the media from your from your brothers tank you are probably already cycled or pretty much close to it.

Secondly false positive readings are common and most test have an error range of 0.5 s0 your point 0.25 could be 0.

What i would do is just leave the tank alone and not add prime and just test the water to make sure there isnt a spike in anything. I would only add prime and do a water change if the ammonia goes above 0.5.
I thought prime didn't affect the results of the api test kit. I'll follow your advice and see if it does anything. my tap water has 0 ammonia and no chloramines. Also I didn't add half the media just half of 1 bag of biomax 50. I would add more but he only had 2 pieces of media in his aquaclear (sponge and 1 bag of biomax). I got him a new bag of bio max and took about half of the 1 he had in there.
 

GlennO

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I don't know I guess it's a question for Tetra. Seachem does not have any similar restrictions for using Prime with Stability which is their own brand of bacteria.
 

smee82

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I thought prime didn't affect the results of the api test kit. I'll follow your advice and see if it does anything. my tap water has 0 ammonia and no chloramines. Also I didn't add half the media just half of 1 bag of biomax 50. I would add more but he only had 2 pieces of media in his aquaclear (sponge and 1 bag of biomax). I got him a new bag of bio max and took about half of the 1 he had in there.
You should be fine with what you added.
I wouldnt add prime because its not needed if your below 0.5.
 

Momgoose56

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Thanks! How many years have you been keeping fish? I started learning about fish keeping when I was 11 and sorta lost intrest when I was 14. Recently aquired a new tank and now I am getting more obsessed with the hobby than ever.

well this is what tetra says.

In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the food the bacteria require to live.

Doesn't specifically mention prime. The only way that this can be true is if somehow prime affects the "special stabilized solution of ammonia". Even if so if you have fish in the tank there should be some ammonia to feed the bacteria. This could just be tetra trying to make you buy their water conditioner.
I have had fish since I was about 7 so, oh, 12 years? Lol! No really, I started having my own fish in about 1964, back when we had submerged corner air pump powered filters (similar to the "new" sponge filters lol!) and we used fiberglass floss and activated carbon in them. We didn't have test kits back then, we just did lots of water changes and tested pH with litmus paper. My brother got me started when we lived in San Diego when he was 12 aand I was 8. He had 4 tanks, various sizes with discus, khuli loaches, a tank with Black Mollies, and other fish. My first fish- were some Molly fry in a 10 gallon tank. So I've been keeping fish for about 55 years.
PRIME
Here's what Prime does: it converts low levels of ammonia to ammonium temporarily (about 48 hours) making it harmless to fish during that time. After 48 hours the ammonia returns to its original form (why you keep dosing, to keep that hydrogen bond intact) It doesn't remove ammonia. It also converts any chloramines in water to chlorine and ammonia, it then also converts that ammonia to ammonium and 'removes' the clorine with sulphur dioxide (why dechlorinators smell stinky) That's why I highly doubt that Prime has any more of an adverse effect on bottled bacteria than on any of the bacteria already in your tank. Nitrifying bacteria utilize ammonium as an energy source (food) just as readily as they utilize ammonia.

First off of you added around half of the media from your from your brothers tank you are probably already cycled or pretty much close to it.

Secondly false positive readings are common and most test have an error range of 0.5 s0 your point 0.25 could be 0.

What i would do is just leave the tank alone and not add prime and just test the water to make sure there isnt a spike in anything. I would only add prime and do a water change if the ammonia goes above 0.5.
@smee82 If a new tank isn't producing nitrates, it isn't cycled. "Secondly", 'False' positive results are only false if you can confirm that they are 'false'. Assuming that a result is false just because it doesn't change can cost you fish.
 

tuffcookie

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I have had fish since I was about 7 so, oh, 12 years? Lol! No really, I started having my own fish in about 1964, back when we had submerged corner air pump powered filters (similar to the "new" sponge filters lol!) and we used fiberglass floss and activated carbon in them. We didn't have test kits back then, we just did lots of water changes and tested pH with litmus paper. My brother got me started when we lived in San Diego when he was 12 aand I was 8. He had 4 tanks, various sizes with discus, khuli loaches, a tank with Black Mollies, and other fish. My first fish- were some Molly fry in a 10 gallon tank. So I've been keeping fish for about 55 years.
PRIME
Here's what Prime does: it converts low levels of ammonia to ammonium temporarily (about 48 hours) making it harmless to fish during that time. After 48 hours the ammonia returns to its original form (why you keep dosing, to keep that hydrogen bond intact) It doesn't remove ammonia. It also converts any chloramines in water to chlorine and ammonia, it then also converts that ammonia to ammonium and 'removes' the clorine with sulphur dioxide (why dechlorinators smell stinky) That's why I highly doubt that Prime has any more of an adverse effect on bottled bacteria than on any of the bacteria already in your tank. Nitrifying bacteria utilize ammonium as an energy source (food) just as readily as they utilize ammonia.
Sorry if this is an extremely dumb question, I just started dosing water change with prime and want to better understand what I’m supposed to be doing.

What do you mean by why you keep dosing , to keep hydrogen bond intact? Does that mean after 48hrs of initial dose, I have to dose the tank again?
 

Momgoose56

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Sorry if this is an extremely dumb question, I just started dosing water change with prime and want to better understand what I’m supposed to be doing.

What do you mean by why you keep dosing , to keep hydrogen bond intact? Does that mean after 48hrs of initial dose, I have to dose the tank again?
Yes, ...when you are cycling a tank with fish in it, ammonia and especially nitrites at any level, are toxic. Prime binds with nitrites and converts ammonia (NH3) to ammonium (NH4- harmless to fish) for about 48 hours. To keep the ammonia as ammonium (NH3+H= NH4), and to keep the nitrites bound, you have to redose the tank every 48 hours and treat all replacement water with Prime as long as there is ammonia or nitrites present in the tank.
 

tuffcookie

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Yes, ...when you are cycling a tank with fish in it, ammonia and especially nitrites at any level, are toxic. Prime binds with nitrites and converts ammonia (NH3) to ammonium (NH4- harmless to fish) for about 48 hours. To keep the ammonia as ammonium (NH3+H= NH4), you have to redose the tank every 48 hours and treat all replacement water with Prime as long as there is ammonia or nitrites present in the tank.
Only for cycling? What about doing it for water change for a cycled tank? Every 48hrs is a set thing to do?
 

Momgoose56

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Only for cycling? What about doing it for water change for a cycled tank? Every 48hrs is a set thing to do?
If you don't have a positive test for ammonia or nitrites in a cycled tank, just treat replacement water with Prime...
 
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hydro

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Just to update still no progress with same readings 0.25-0-0. It has been 48hrs since I last added prime so it isn't a false positive. I am going to continue dosing prime.
I was expecting to see ammonia spike or some nitrite or nitrate by this point.
Would it hurt anything if I use tetra safestart now and later on as well when the tank is ready for more fish? It can only help right? I'm willing to buy 2 bottles.
I have had fish since I was about 7 so, oh, 12 years? Lol! No really, I started having my own fish in about 1964, back when we had submerged corner air pump powered filters (similar to the "new" sponge filters lol!) and we used fiberglass floss and activated carbon in them. We didn't have test kits back then, we just did lots of water changes and tested pH with litmus paper. My brother got me started when we lived in San Diego when he was 12 aand I was 8. He had 4 tanks, various sizes with discus, khuli loaches, a tank with Black Mollies, and other fish. My first fish- were some Molly fry in a 10 gallon tank. So I've been keeping fish for about 55 years.
PRIME
Here's what Prime does: it converts low levels of ammonia to ammonium temporarily (about 48 hours) making it harmless to fish during that time. After 48 hours the ammonia returns to its original form (why you keep dosing, to keep that hydrogen bond intact) It doesn't remove ammonia. It also converts any chloramines in water to chlorine and ammonia, it then also converts that ammonia to ammonium and 'removes' the clorine with sulphur dioxide (why dechlorinators smell stinky) That's why I highly doubt that Prime has any more of an adverse effect on bottled bacteria than on any of the bacteria already in your tank. Nitrifying bacteria utilize ammonium as an energy source (food) just as readily as they utilize ammonia.
Thats incredible! I can only imagine what fish keeping was like before the internet and modern equipment.

Tested again this morning and same results. I am going to get some TSS and add it today. I don't see how it can do any harm, so worst case scenrio it doesn't work and I waste some money.

I added something much much better than TSS. Lots and lots of already cycled media I bought from a local hobbyist in my area. I got a very large bag of bio-max and 3 pre-intake sponges. He said he kept cichlids so likely a large bio load in his tank. I am pretty sure my tank should be instantly cycled but I am going to wait till ammonia drops before I add anything. Also going to add plants and marimo moss balls later on so that should help.
 

mattgirl

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I added something much much better than TSS. Lots and lots of already cycled media I bought from a local hobbyist in my area. I got a very large bag of bio-max and 3 pre-intake sponges. He said he kept cichlids so likely a large bio load in his tank. I am pretty sure my tank should be instantly cycled but I am going to wait till ammonia drops before I add anything. Also going to add plants and marimo moss balls later on so that should help.
Perfect!!!!!! Unlike bottled bacteria this media should be loaded with all the bacteria you need.
 
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hydro

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I decided to test the water that the used filter media came in from the other guys tank.
it was 0.25 - 0 - 40. Didn't expect to see ammonia so I figured it could a false positive. I tested the ammonia kit by testing my tap, my brothers tank, and my tank. it was 0-0-0.25 respectively, so there is no false positive. Hopefully there was only ammonia in the other guys tank because he overfed or is overstocked or something.
 
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