FIN ROT WALTZ -Three Steps Forward, Two Steps Back

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voiceless_kat

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Well, bless these little fish who have stolen our hearts -- and extra thoughts & prayers to the many of us who are loving/treating/caring for them through their various ailments.

Neptune seems to be cycling between healing and relapsing of fin rot. ( Wish my tank would cycle! - LOL). I continue to do daily 25-30% water changes, and so far he has been medicated with Fungus Eliminator; Maracyn Plus; Maracyn ( which I know is for gram pos) - my Maracyn 2 was outdated when purchased. My stock still has Trisulfa which I have never used. I have previously added tiny amt of salt when using FE. Water temp is 82. Maracyn Plus treatments showed most results. My water tests are all 0ppm except for Ammonia which is .25ppm. Poor guy has been on meds most of his short life!

I think today I will add a new carbon filter, run it overnight, do a 50% water change then restart medicating with Maracyn Plus. I never see in this forum that anyone uses that - however being liquid it is easier to dose, treats both gram neg & pos and has very little effect on the biological filter.

My questions today are 1.) should I continue with the daily water changes (2/3 gal - it's a 6 gal tank) when I re- medicate since Amm is .25 ?
(2) should I give him a rest longer than 24 hours before restarting meds ?


I also read on one of the Google articles I read that the water changes can add to the stress and even the water action caused by adding water can stress them.

High maintenance critters - who knew. As usual thanks for all of you help/support/advice. Val

Also : getting meds is difficult - all have to be ordered on line, sent to Minnesota and I have to go over the border and pick them up; just so you know I can't just run out and get them ( I think most of you do cuz I have been a "real pain" with all my questions! )
 

genie

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Sympathy-- that is what I have for you!! My betta Cobalt lives at my office and he has been so sick since I got him-- fin rot as well. BTW, your carbon filter will just filter out the meds. I found some meds that the fish eat-- I start Cobalt tomorrow. I'll let you know.
 
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voiceless_kat

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Genie, I have been following your difficulties with Cobalt as well - hope all goes well.

I am replacing the filter material with a new carbon filter to get rid of whatever remains of the Maracyn before I start again with Maracyn Plus. At least I think that is correct. Man, it feels like I spend all day either fretting over Neptune, reading this forum top to bottom, or Googling other info. I had to go bake cookies to get my mind in another place...LOL. Thanks for your wishes,. Val
 

cherryrose

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You might want to try Triple Sulfa (Trisulfa) since you have some, or T.C. capsules if the Maracyn Plus doesn't clear him up. I just started my 2 male bettas with fin rot on it. I don't know yet if it will work or not but figure it is worth a try. I don't have an answer for your other questions, but I do know that with most meds, you do a 25% water change on the third day. In your case I would continue with the daily water changes, since your tank hasn't cycled yet. Bettas, or other fish for that matter, need to have their water free from ammonia. I hope I have been helpful. I have sympathy for you. It is so hard to get our little friends well. Good luck.

CherryRose
 

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I was just wondering how you dose the Marycin. It says for 10 gal-- well Cobalt is in 2 gal. Any suggestions??
 

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For Maracyn, dissolve the packet in 10 oz of water and give him 2oz of that mixture. Or if you only have cup measurements like I do, dissolve it in 1 cup of water and give him 1/5 a cup of that mixture.

As for poor Neptune, I totally understand the whole frustrating process and I wish you the best of luck. When it's all over and Neptune's back to normal, you'll know it was worth it
 
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voiceless_kat

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I know, figuring out the dosage when the tank is (a) uncycled and (b) less than 10 gallons can make you want to pull your hair out. Mike had advised me, and now that I think of it, I just might use TriSulfa instead of the Maracyn Plus. ( Since I can still use Mike's formula) . Maracyn Plus plus you only treat on days 1.3.5. - and when I think back, when I did the water changes, I didn't replace the meds that would have come out with the 25%. No wonder Neptune just hovers there between fin rot and no fin rot. :-[ LOL I didn't change water today, I did the last dose of Maracyn, will add a new filter in the morning, and change water at night ( Wed) . Then will start over with the meds on Thursday, if that sounds right??

I know that look he gives me now ..."Hope you can figure it out soon, Mom". ???

Genie, I wish I could help , but I am just too DAHHHHHH! Maybe start another thread ( or watch this one) and all those wonderful helpers will come to your assistance..? Let us all have positive thoughts to get these betta kids through this. Thank goodness Neptune is still eating, goofing off; and being charming cuz he makes me feel there is always hope. - Like Rose says....At least give hope! Val
 

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Water changes are stressful on the fish, especially large water changes.  They also wreak havoc on med levels.  Unfortunately, exposing the fish to any level of ammonia in an uncycled tank by avoiding water changes, regardless of whether or not the ammonia level is high enough to be toxic, is likely to cause enough stress on the fish to perpetuate the fin rot.

The only answer I found to this dilemma was to use Amquel+ as the water conditioner when we gave our Betta his latest fin rot treatment using penicillin.  Beyond neutralizing the usual suspects that come out of the tap, Amquel+ also neutralizes ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates.  Now that would kill any sub-cycle, but medicating a sick fish in a tank one is using that very fish to cycle is nothing you'll ever hear me recommend. 

Once the penicillin treatment was over, the med levels were reduced by inserting a new carbon/charcoal filter and small water changes were done every other day using Amquel+ in the replacement water.

Our decision to use Bio-Spira to cycle the tank had been made a long time ago.  In fact, we'd had a dose of it in the refrigerator since mid-December.  The problem for us was that we treated him with the penicillin in the tank we planned to cycle, and you cannot use Amquel+ with Bio-Spira during the first week the bacteria is trying to establish itself.  But this worked out better than expected.

We set up his three-gallon Kritter Keeper using Stress Coat as the water conditioer.  After getting the Keeper to it's operating temp, we transferred the Betta to the Kritter tank.  Now, I was free to clear his five-gallon tank of all the Amquel+-laced water, redecorate it, and get it up and running before re-transferring our Betta back to his home.  When the five-gallon had run for two days, I dosed it with the Bio-Spira followed by the fish.  Done.

He's been in the 5-gallon for 9 days now.  He's still showing a bit of fin rot, but it is really slowed.  Though all the meds we've tried over the past three months may have helped cut his fin rot down, I think that the fewer and smaller-quantity water changes we began going with in the later treatments (as well as his Amquel+-related treatment that was free of all water changes) also helped immensely.  Now, if we need to treat him, we won't have to deal with water changes that the med directions actually discourage. 

So, while I don't know of the availability of Amquel+ for you, it's use is what I suggest.  This will keep the ammonia down to zero and allow you to treat the Betta without subjecting him to water changes.  As for the med to use, I've never used Maracyn Plus, so I can't vouch for it.  It does claim to help fin rot cases, though.  As for the med break, a few days off probably won't hurt.

Sorry for the long read, but I hope it was helpful.

Mike
 
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voiceless_kat

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Mike, don't apologize for the long read, it all makes sense to me. Next time around, I will do what I have to do to get Bio Spira also. I will look for AmQuel 9 only have Walmart) . I don't mind doing the water changes, although it may be stressful for Neptune, he always makes me feel that he enjoys it. So curious. Anyway, today is the only day I didn't do water change, and will do that tomorrow. As I said previously I think I will go with TriSulfa since I can use the previous guide you posted. Does that sound good?

Meanwhile he seems happy & playful - and I will just try to relax and keep him on track. Oh ya, and have a glass of wine! Thanks. Val
 

LZ Floyd

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The trisulfa should be okay to use.  I started our Betta on it the day before getting the fish penicillin.  Consequently, he only got one dose of it before the trisulfa was exchanged for the penicillin.  While I can't vouch for it's effectiveness, I do keep it on hand and wouldn't be afraid to try it at some future point for fin rot.

Mike
 

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I know how you feel, I'm about to give up myself. I'm using the Maracyn/Maracyn 2 combo, on day 3 of treatment and the water is so cloudy I can barely see him. My tank finally started to cycle but after adding these meds it dropped to everything being 0. I also have an airstone in the water to help with circulation.

Spartacus's eyes are filled with blood, and now near his gills, where his "cheeks" would be, if he had any, there's a vertical red stripe going down, on both sides. I don't know what's going on and apparently no one else does, either. And, I noticed he has a hole in his tail now, too. The only other thing I can think of is to call a fish tech from Foster and Smith, and if they can't help I guess we're just on our own.
 

COBettaCouple

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Eskielvr said:
I know how you feel, I'm about to give up myself. I'm using the Maracyn/Maracyn 2 combo, on day 3 of treatment and the water is so cloudy I can barely see him. My tank finally started to cycle but after adding these meds it dropped to everything being 0. I also have an airstone in the water to help with circulation.

Spartacus's eyes are filled with blood, and now near his gills, where his "cheeks" would be, if he had any, there's a vertical red stripe going down, on both sides. I don't know what's going on and apparently no one else does, either. And, I noticed he has a hole in his tail now, too. The only other thing I can think of is to call a fish tech from Foster and Smith, and if they can't help I guess we're just on our own.
Would any of these links help? I wish I knew the problem Spartacus has, but we're still pretty new to fish & Bettas. I think it's the Maracyn 2 that makes the water cloudy?

http://fishyfarmacy.com/fish_diseases/

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/diseasehome.htm

How is his appetite and activity level? Could it be Septicemia? The hole in his tail might not have the same cause as his other problems, but I don't know.. I hope one of those links will define his symptoms enough to tell you his problem & how to get him better.
 

COBettaCouple

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voiceless_kat said:
Mike, don't apologize for the long read, it all makes sense to me. Next time around, I will do what I have to do to get Bio Spira also. I will look for AmQuel 9 only have Walmart) . I don't mind doing the water changes, although it may be stressful for Neptune, he always makes me feel that he enjoys it. So curious. Anyway, today is the only day I didn't do water change, and will do that tomorrow. As I said previously I think I will go with TriSulfa since I can use the previous guide you posted. Does that sound good?

Meanwhile he seems happy & playful - and I will just try to relax and keep him on track. Oh ya, and have a glass of wine! Thanks. Val
How are things going with Neptune?
 
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voiceless_kat

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Hey Guys...I started another thread regarding that algae on a decoration earlier today and posted the pics of the either New Growth or New Fin Rot. Happily,since his water tests were all 0ppm today, he didn't have to have a water change. I just cleaned the anemone, and right now he is happily sleeping on the leaf of a plant. Other than that red coloured/fin rot/whatever, you would never know there is anything wrong.

He is feisty; jumps up and snarfs blood worms like a piggy right off the forcep; whips around the tank and has been curious with the cats tonight - who are under strict orders to do a "Mr Friendly" ( which involves rubbing against the tank and laying down and watching, as opposed to pawing at the tank. ) ( Supervised) And man oh man, I can't believe I actually wrote that for everyone to read. : Ok I should have said that in the funny betta stories thread.

Two words for me - cuckoo - cuckoo!!! LOL Thanks for asking! Val
 

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LOL. I'm glad that he isn't showing any signs of stress Val. Natalie
 

COBettaCouple

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voiceless_kat said:
Hey Guys...I started another thread regarding that algae on a decoration earlier today and posted the pics of the either New Growth or New Fin Rot. Happily,since his water tests were all 0ppm today, he didn't have to have a water change. I just cleaned the anemone, and right now he is happily sleeping on the leaf of a plant. Other than that red coloured/fin rot/whatever, you would never know there is anything wrong.

He is feisty; jumps up and snarfs blood worms like a piggy right off the forcep; whips around the tank and has been curious with the cats tonight - who are under strict orders to do a "Mr Friendly" ( which involves rubbing against the tank and laying down and watching, as opposed to pawing at the tank. ) ( Supervised) And man oh man, I can't believe I actually wrote that for everyone to read. : Ok I should have said that in the funny betta stories thread.

Two words for me - cuckoo - cuckoo!!! LOL Thanks for asking! Val
LOL.. well, we always go around and "good morning" and "good night" to all our Betta babies.. they make us all a little 'cuckoo', but that's not such a bad thing is it? He sounds like a happy little guy to us. We've been wanting those anemone decor for ours.. the friend we gave that blue female we nursed to health - she has one and when we first put the blue in, she immediately swam to it & started to yank on the tendrels. lol
 

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Eskielvr said:
I know how you feel, I'm about to give up myself. I'm using the Maracyn/Maracyn 2 combo, on day 3 of treatment and the water is so cloudy I can barely see him. My tank finally started to cycle but after adding these meds it dropped to everything being 0. I also have an airstone in the water to help with circulation.

Spartacus's eyes are filled with blood, and now near his gills, where his "cheeks" would be, if he had any, there's a vertical red stripe going down, on both sides. I don't know what's going on and apparently no one else does, either. And, I noticed he has a hole in his tail now, too. The only other thing I can think of is to call a fish tech from Foster and Smith, and if they can't help I guess we're just on our own. 
IMO, Spartacus needs to go into a zero-ammonia environment ASAP.  Get some Amquel+ to use as the water conditioner, it will nullify ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates.  Your fish needs to be in an environment as free of stress as possible for any meds to work.

I'm not sure a big water change will help to reduce the ammonia levels enough to help.  You may have to move Spartacus to an h-tank with Amquel+-treated water and start the meds again.  Don't net him.  If you can, capture him in a cup for the transfer.

I believe Spartacus is in serious trouble and in need of an environment free of ammonia and stress-inducing water changes.

Maracyn2 will cloud the tank.  It's not permanent and will dissipate when treatment is complete and after a few water changes.

Mike
 
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voiceless_kat

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Eskeilvr....I encourage you to take Mike's advice regarding Spartacus....I know it is frustrating when these little guys are feeling 100% - but it is such a good feeling to know you are doing everything you can, and begin to see positive results.

Betta couple.....LOL with fish nippers! I read that a lot on this forum. Haven't seen Neptune nip at anything unless it was food or my finger!! But he does love that anemone. I think the one with the really long tentacles would be fun - I might have to add one to my next F&S order. It would be really neat to sleep in ( well for Neptune I mean) LOL

Today's water tests showed Nitrites 0 and Amm sort of between 0 & .25 so I think I will do a small water change today. There are no changes in his tail. I will keep my fingers crossed. Val

My hubby is going to Wpg so I may have him check around for Bio Spira....that would be great if I could find some!
 

heatmisr

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If he can't find the Bio-Spira, he can also look for Turbostart 700. I used that to cycle Lil Blue's tank. I, too, was doing the fin rot dance with an uncycled tank. I was having a terrible time with high nitrite readings and couldn't wait any longer for the tank to cycle on it's own. The water was cloudy for about 6 days from the Turbostart. On the 7th day, it cleared up completely.

Nicole
 
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voiceless_kat

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Thanks Nicole, I will look into that product - first time I have heard of it. Val
 
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