Fin Rot in a few hours ???

voiceless_kat
  • #1
Hi. I started another post today regarding cycling the aquarium water. I did a 50% treated water change, Neptune is all happy. Nitrates and Nitrites are 0ppm, Ammonia was recording between.5-1.0 ( the lowestrecord on the card I have). everything was fine

I just went to feed Neptune, and I notice his tail has some tiny shreds on the ends. I checked the posting by Lisa with photos, and it looks like that. Now how can that happen in 4 hours???? Nothing has changed other than the water. I did just do a PH test, it is 7.6....when it registered that before, someone on this site said it would be ok, better to let the fish adjust than to keep trying to bring PG higher or lower.

Darn, I am always in a state of panic with this little fish. Should I wait to see if it increased, do I medicate, (if so how)leave it, or what. obviously tank has not cycled, is just beginning.

What a pain I am being, but thanks for any advise/help. Val
 
chickadee
  • #2
In an uncycled tank, fish can develop fin rot in minutes. The best course of treatment at this point is to get some Maracyn2 and start to medicate him as soon as possible. It does not go away on its own in an uncycled tank. Do I understand that you are going to be gone for the weekend?

If you are going to be gone for the weekend the proper medication should be Jungle Labs Fungus Clear Buddies as they stay in the tank for 4 days. If you do a good water change and then medicate with 1 tablet for each 10 gallons of water (half a tablet for 5 gallons) all you do is drop it in the tank as they are fizzy. Then if he is able to get through without a water change you are set for the weekend. It gets so complicated with not being cycled and it is too late for the Bio-spira as you cannot medicate them and use it.

I hope this has helped a little. Please do keep us informed of his progress.

Rose
 
cherryrose
  • #3
Wow! I didn't realize that fin rot could happen so fast. I sure hope that the fin-rot clears up quickly for you as well as for Neptune's sake. My betta's. Barney, Belle, Benji, Bambi, and I are sending healing wishes your way.

CherryRose
 
voiceless_kat
  • Thread Starter
  • #4
Thanks Rose;

That is totally unbelievable that something can happen this fast? :'( And I think I was just getting a handle on the cycling thing? Now what would cause that, do you have any idea to share? The water is crystal clear and had test measurements as shown poreviously. Only one fish, no real live plants, temp is 80 degrees. I am truly stunned!

I will do a water change again in the morning, is one a day enough? Then I will buy the Marcyn? There is Marcyn & Marcyn 2 and Marcyn plus. Is that correct. Do I need more than one. The only place I have to buy here is Walmart, I have seen some medications there, but can't remember what. Is there any other brand name that is okay to try? If Walmart doesn't have it, I will get what they have and post it prior to use to see what everyone thinks. If I have to order from S&F I won't get it until Monday!

I also believe I have read that if I medicate, I should remove the filter cartridge? What about the Bio Wheel?

I am going to try to get out of my weekend, ( a family thing) : they all think I am crazy with my fish anyway so nothing to lose.

I must say it is easier to take the cats to the vet!

Man, I am so sad to be already dealing with this kind of thing - reading the other posts there are a lot of us dealing with something or other. Nice to have the support.

Many thanks again, Val
 
LZ Floyd
  • #5
HI Val,

Some sources I've seen make a distinction between torn fins (the result of injury) and fin rot (possibly resulting from post-injury complications, stress, poor water quality, and/or bacterial invasion).  Also, it is sometimes suggested that clearing up any water quality issues may be all that is needed to help the fish get back to normal.  I'm not making any suggestions here, just passing along some info I've come across while researching fin rot wrt our own Betta.

If you decide to use meds, the charcoal/carbon filter needs to be removed regardless of its age as it may interfere with the meds ability to work.  Your filter can be replaced with some bulk filter material cut to size or the charcoal filter you have can be broken up to get the charcoal out (the filter will need to be replaced anyway).  Leave the bio-wheel in place.

All the Maracyns you mentioned (1, 2 and plus) are good to have on hand as you never know when you'll need them (but you can be assured that when you need them, they won't be available).  From what I've read here, the Jungle Labs Fungus Clear is a good place to start.  Maracyn 2 would be the next step and a combo of Maracyn and Maracyn 2 would follow that.  Using the Maracyns in an uncycled tank needing water changes is not easy and requires more meds than would be needed in a cycled tank.  If you catch this soon enough, the JL Fungus Clear may be all you need, though.

Hope this was helpful.

Mike
 
chickadee
  • #6
Couldn't add a thing but my best wishes and prayers. Please keep us informed and I am so sorry that the weekend has been complicated by this.

I can only tell you that MANY things could be responsible. The best guess in your case and some of the others that are going through this right now and one MAJOR one is STRESS. Probably due to being uncycled. In my own case, I am quite sure that it is STRESS due to having no electricity the other night and the fish got cold.

It is so hard to try to guess what will stress our little friends so much that they get sick but I will say that Bettas are very High-strung and get stressed and depressed easily so you are not alone.

As I have said, you all are in my prayers and thoughts today and always. Best of luck.

Rose
 
voiceless_kat
  • Thread Starter
  • #7
Good Morning and thanks Mike & Rose for your advise...Neptune is acting fine this morning, but it sounds like they do even as their fins are rotting away?? It doesn't look any different from last night, but I am going to go ahead and pick this stuff up. I was going to get all that stuff when I bought him, after reading this site, but I didn't....dah.

Anyway, Rose, since you said it could be stress also, any chance it could be stress caused by external factors - like one with whiskers and a tail? I saw the cat paw at the tank a couple times yesterday, and I was busy with housework, so never chased her away. She doesn't usually paw, just sits and looks. but I will be more watchful and try to keep her down. I am usually here most of the time.

I haven't tested/change water yet today, I think I will get the medicine, change water, pull filter, then medicate. I will keep you posted. So thankful to you guys! Your support is awesome.

Val
 
chickadee
  • #8
LOL...anything that might make him feel a bit threatened or challenged beyond his ability to handle would certainly qualify I would think. I think paws and a tail and a big head and teeth would do it.

Rose
 
voiceless_kat
  • Thread Starter
  • #9
Bless you for making me laugh, Rose!

I just got home, and here is what I bought. PIMAFIX & MELAFIX, also JUNGLE FUNGUS ELIMINATOR ( I think this is the same thing, if so, I will take it back). I also bought JUNGLE ICK GUARD ( planning ahead.....so I have it ). I couldn't find FUNGUS CLEAR BUDDIES, they only had AMMONIA CLEAR BUDDIES. I weasled my way out of my committment, so will just be able to change water. ( or not depending upon medicating).

They did not carry Marcyn, should I order some ( if so both of them or which one) , is it better or the same as what I bought? [/u] I had the Foster & Smith catalogue with me and that kinda helped. But if [b]there is still something I should order, let me know and I will do that today.[/b]

Water testing was:
AMMONIA - very, very pale, but still registering. My test card goes from 0ppm to .5 -1.0 ppm...so I guess it could be registering at .25, but there is very slight colour just the same.

NITRATE & NITRITE - both 0ppm.

Now I am not sure how to proceed. Should I do a water change, then add Pimafix and/or Melafix. I see Melafix is antibacterial and Pimafix antfungal. It says I should repeat dose for 7 days and then change 25% of the water. What about the cycling?

Do you add the stuff direct to the tank with the fish still in it, dilute it first with tank water, or take fish out???[/u]

So once again, I will wait for sage advise. I will go ahead and do the water change and condition a new batch until someone hopefully will have some answers..

So many questions.................

YIKES! No wonder the word Melafix sounded familiar -- I just reread Rose's warning........so it will go back to the stor. So now I will have to go get Bettafix, I think I saw that there.

Or would the Jungle Fungus eliminator do.....it says it clears fin &mouth rot!

Whew avoided that tragedy!!

Val
 
nmwierman1977
  • #10
You're much better off the jungle fungus tabs. I wouldn't get bettafix, it's the same as Melafix, only at a lower dosage. Natalie
 
voiceless_kat
  • Thread Starter
  • #11
Natalie...the jungle Fungus eliminator is kinda granulated. Do I just put it in or dissolve it first? Leave neptune in or out.

How is your fish?

Val
 
nmwierman1977
  • #12
Well I've never used it before. What do the instructions say on it? By granulated, you mean it's powder? I'm pretty sure with thhat you can just put it right into the tank. Just follow the instructions for the correct amount.

Royell seems to look much better.His color is back. He still hasn't eaten anything yet, but I know he will when he feels he ready to eat again. Right now, I just want him to get as much rest as possible, so I'm trying not to push the food situation. I've been shutting his loight off around 7-7:30 every night. Thanks for asking. Natalie

You know I was thinking, maybe instead of going with the Jungle labs, maybe go with Maracyn2 instead, only because it's a little stronger then the Jungle labs and your tank isn't cycled yet. With that you just dissolve the tablets in 10 oz of water and then it's 1 oz per gallon water. I'm assuming you don't have a hospital tank you would pour 5 oz in because you have the 5 oz tank, right? I would just hate for you to use the jungle labs and have them not work because it's not that strong of a med especially with an uncycled tank. It's completely up to you of course. Natalie
 
voiceless_kat
  • Thread Starter
  • #13
Nast, I don't have Maracyn 1 or 2. I am going to order some stuff this weekend from Foster & Smith and then I will have it.

I just did a 25% water change, so think I will wait to see if any other ideas and answers to all those other questions come in, and if not, just treat with the Fungus eliminator. It is a powder. 1 tsp to 5 gallons. My tank is an Eclipse 6. Would I just dump it in, or dilute in some aquarium water first. Do I leave neptune in or take him out. Do I keep changing the water every day or leave it for 4 days as it says?

wish I lived in the city sometimes!

Val
 
LZ Floyd
  • #14
If you're going to use the JL Fungus Eliminator, I'd put 1 and 1/5 tsp of the powder in a cup that has some tank water in it, mix it up, then pour it into the tank (that is, unless the directions tell you to do otherwise).  Measuring out 1 and 1/5 teaspoon could be kind of hard.  What you might do, then, is put two tsp in 10 ounces of tank water, then put 6 ounces of that solution into the tank.  You should not need to remove Neptune for the purpose of adding the meds, just try to not dump it on his head.

If you can do a 50% or greater water change before adding the meds, that might get you through four days without having to do a water change.  That would save you some meds measuring because any meds you take out with a water change during the treatment will need to be replaced.

Good luck to you and Neptune.

Mike
 
voiceless_kat
  • Thread Starter
  • #15
Thanks Mike, I have done about 25% water change earlier in the evening. I will do the treatment now as you suggested, after taking out the charcoal.

so tomorrow do I change 50% of the water, another treatment and see if I can go 4 days without changing water , but doing the daily treatment? And keep checking ammonia every day ( and other tests). Does this affect cycling?

Thanks. I will go treat and check back later for your reply.

Val

Oh man...does that yello stuff turn the tank water cloudy - I asm so nervous to pour it in???

Okay, I dumped it in - water looks weird. So tomorrow I just test for ammonia as usual, do 50% water change? and remedicate? Or just leave it now for 4 days?

sorry I am so confused/scared I will hurt Neptune. Val ..............trying to do it the right way!!
 
LZ Floyd
  • #16
Without having used the Eliminator, I don't know what the directions say.  Is there a daily treatment of 1 tsp/5 gal, and for how long?  Or is it one dose of 1 tsp/5 gal for a four day period?  Do they suggest water changes, or none?  Without knowing the protocol, it's hard to line up a water change schedule.

As for the cycle, doing water changes may slow the cycle.  

Mike
 
voiceless_kat
  • Thread Starter
  • #17
Mike, I mixed it as you suggested and poured 6 oz back into the tank. It has a weird yellow colour. Instructions only say remove carbon ( I did that, took carbon out, put filter back since I had nothing else to use) -repeat dosage every 4 days after a 25% water change. May stain aquatic and non-aquatic material.

So since I am still battling that ammonia thing - should I change water or not? If I don't ammonia climbs, if I do, bacteria doesn't grow.

I have all thetest kits in the Freahwater Master Test Kit (API) but isn't weird that first level is 0ppm and the next .5 -1.0ppm.? How is everyone knowing thiers are at .25ppm . which kit is that? ???

How long does the water stay so weird looking? :'(

And you are probably thinkging, when will Val run out of questions??? ??? thank Val
 
chickadee
  • #18
The dose you put in the tank is supposed to last for 4 days with no more added. Just do the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate testing and if the ammonia is over 0.5 then you need to do a 50% water change and replace the medications that you remove in the water change. If you can leave it for 4 days without a change that is all the better, but if he needs to have a water change in the 4 days just mix up a teaspoon of the stuff in 5 ounces of water and put one ounce in for each gallon of water that you are replacing.

(If you remove 3 gallons of water just put 3 ounces of the 5 ounces back into the water.)

If you do not do a water change, do not put any more medications in the tank as this dose will last for the 4 days.

When you order medications from Drs. Foster & Smith, I would include Trisulfa Powder or Triple Sulfa Capsules and get Maracyn and Maracyn2. You may also want to invest in a vitamin called Vita-chem (freshwater formula). (Vitamin dosage is 1 drop per gallon three times a week) (6 gallon tank is 6 drops)

The only bad question is one that is not asked. Keep asking, we would much rather answer questions than correct mistakes. I like that you are not worried about asking, that is good.

Rose
 
voiceless_kat
  • Thread Starter
  • #19
Thanks Rose; Would you be able to tell me which kit measures .25ppm for ammonia?

If it is measuring at the first level past 0ppm which is .5-1.0 ? I am not sure how to tell which it is. Otherwise, it looks to me like any colouration at all, no matter how pale, means a water change?

Will that Fugus Eliminator affect the test? Bottle says it stains, the water is kinda tinted yellow.

Thanks . Val
 
chickadee
  • #20
It is the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. Freshwater Master Kit or their Ammonia test whichever you use.

The card looks like the picture.

Rose
 
cherryrose
  • #21
I hope the Fungus eliminator works for you and Neptune. It is what I used first for Benji's fin rot. I am going to start BenjI on Furon 2 as he is still not healed. Some fin rot seems to be more stubborn than other kinds.

CherryRose
 
voiceless_kat
  • Thread Starter
  • #22
thanks for the scan of the testing card. My kit is made by API & the card is not the same. Increments are so large ( 0 / .5- 1.0 / 2.0-3.0 / 4.0-5.0 etc.)

The lot numer on the front ends with 0305 --is that date of mfg or expiry? Does this stuff expire? I bought it at walmart. Obviously I could have had ammonia higher than .5 for the last 2 weeks.

I did a 25% water change yesterday ( he is so funny when the siphon/my hand is in the tank - very curious ). Neptune seems perky and happy and completely unaware that he is having a bad hair day.

I have left his light off most of the day, kept the cats away. He still eats like a little porker.

I have hopefully attached a scan of my card. Any ideas?

Should I change water /remedicate again today? Val

Well obviously the scan was too large. sorry.
 
chickadee
  • #23
Yes I do think that they expire and your test kit is the individual kit.  The card that I copied was from the Master Test Kit.  I had an extra individual test for ammonia and checked and my card in that one is like yours and starts at 0.5 - 1.0.  It is NOT a two part test as is the one in the Master kit.  I guess I had not realized that there was a difference.

If you are not sure of the ammonia content of the water, then I would go ahead and do a change and medicate like you did yesterday.  (1 ounce for each gallon that you remove and replace)

Rose
 
voiceless_kat
  • Thread Starter
  • #24
Rose, what do you mean it is a two part test? If I used your card with my vial, I would be the very top one - 0ppm.

So my kit is probably both expired and innacurate? Val
 
chickadee
  • #25
Sorry, I am not in top form this morning at all. Error caused by confused moderator...the individual test is a ONE part test. The master kit test has two solutions to use in the testing. The cards are not interchangeable. Sorry. In the test that you are using the water should remain clear. (no color)

Rose
 
voiceless_kat
  • Thread Starter
  • #26
)k gothcha! I am sure your confusion results from dozey people like me who have too many questions! Sorry. One would think they would make all this stuff the same.

However, I also have figured out that those other products I asked you about are to be used one the tank is cycled, correct? If that day would only come. However, hope springs eternal as I went on some of the other threads and see people all over the place fretting about cycling and celebrating when it happens.

Will this medication interrup the cycling?? Hopefully last questions for today....(fingers crossed)...



1 . Is 25% water change today enough? Tomorrow is day 4 so I do 50%.

2. How do I decide whether or not to just leave him then, or to remedicate?

( Who I am kidding - every question makes me think of another one to ask)...... Val
 
chickadee
  • #27
If you are doing a daily change, 25% is probably enough. If the changes are any further apart than that I would do 50%.

If you do not see any improvement or if the disease is worse, then you need to either repeat treatment or use another med and treat.

If the disease is halted and has not gotten worse, then you may want to do another round to see if you can see an IMPROVEMENT not just a HALT.

Rose
 
voiceless_kat
  • Thread Starter
  • #28
If I decide to change products, must I change 100% of the water first?

Is Maracyn Plus & Maracyn TC as good as buying Maracyn/Maracyn2? I get F&S orders in 2 days regular shipping, so that is good.

Val
 
chickadee
  • #29
Maracyn is Erythromycin and is a good broad spectrum antibiotic that is effective against fin rot, gill diseases, and many other problems. It should not affect your biological filter.

Maracyn TC is Tetracycline and treats many gram negative and gram positive bacterial infections very effectively and is also known to affect the biological filter.

Maracyn Plus is a combination of two antibiotics and both work exceptionally well. The main focus of the medication is fin rot and full system bacterial infections and it is safe for the biological filter.

Maracyn2 is a Minocycline based medication and works well on many full system bacterial infections and fin rot. The medication will not affect the biological filter.

While they are all a bit different in the way they treat infections, they have a lot in common. I would not use Maracyn TC and Maracyn Plus instead of Maracyn/Maracyn2 but you could do the combo of Maracyn Plus/Maracyn 2 if you prefer.

Rose
 
Phloxface
  • #30
Maracyn Plus can not be used with any other antibiotics. It must be used alone. That's what it says in the pamphlet that comes with the Maracyns. Also Maracyn Plus causes a slight reduction in biological activity. I would use Maracyn and Maracyn2 to cover both gram positive and gram negative bacteria. (most fish diseases are gram negative)
If you change products do a 50% water change and run fresh carbon through the filter for about 2 hours, then start the new meds.
 

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