Ethics Of Fish Keeping. General Discussion

The above people have already raised most of the issues I have. The industry treating fish as disposable, stores misinforming customers, detrimental effects of collecting from the wild.

I read The Dragon Behind the Glass which opened my eyes up to how collecting from the wild affects the environment and the people that live there. It also made me think a lot about people objectifying fish. I think it happens with people who are very involved in the hobby, as well. Even people who put a lot of care into their tank still think of their fish as objects. If the fish dies, they get sad because they lost a nice specimen, not because they cared about the fish itself. Of course, this is not by any means all hobbyists, but it is some of them.

I read that book too, one of the best on the fishkeeping hobby. Amazing!

 

I struggle with this issue a lot.

At the risk of sounding like Morpheus from The Matrix, I would say that we are all born into captivity. We are captives in this modern human society, where from birth we are taught behaviors that are supposed change us into something that is good for society as a whole. Don't kill, don't steal, get educated, be compassionate, contribute to society, have good manners, etc. In exchange we get (relatively) easier access to a basic standard of living.

Most people (myself included) choose this captivity, with all its rules and restrictions, because it is easier than the alternative. I believe that is the crux of the issue; the idealization of "the wild". Sure, I could reject society and go live out in "the wild" with no rules or restrictions. But I would be dead or imprisoned before too long.

As long as you are a good owner, my belief is that your fish/inverts/whatever would probably make the same choice that most of us do, to live in the safety of The Matrix. Sure you will always have the Ted KaczynskI types that would prefer no societal bonds or a primitive lifestyle, but the vast majority of us choose to live in society with all its restrictions rather than fend for ourselves in a harsh, unforgiving world.

I am wrong? Maybe, probably. That is the best I can come up with at this time. I still only buy captive bred animals (whether it is my fish and inverts or my two adopted cats) because if I can, I don't want to make the red pill / blue pill choice for any other living creature.

 

YT has definitely boosted the hobby but I believe is harming it in other ways. I think most folks know what I’m talking about.

YT has definitely boosted the hobby but I believe is harming it in other ways. I think most folks know what I’m talking about.

Here’s how to breed plecos and guppies and angels and....... for profit! Nitrogen cycle? Bah....... just dump some tss in there and you’re good. Breed more fish! 1000 shrimp in a 20 long! Catfish attacks Goldfish! Half the planet wondering if their guppy is pregnant. I mean occasionally there is good content but for the most part, just another clique. Just another commercial. Just more bad advice. Personally I will be glad when the YT fishkeeper craze is over. Shouldn’t be long now. About the lifespan of a bad 80’s hair metal band. Rant complete.

 

Breeding for profit. Ha. The industry as a whole is just poor looking at it from the stand point of pet store advice and people not researching what they are buying. I see it so much, fish kept in too small tanks, temperature incompatibility and I won't even go into ph. I feel if fish are kept appropriately there isn't an issue.

 

I won't buy wild caught fish. There is no tank in the world that is large enough to be the same as being in the wild. I watched someone on youtube once and he was saying he would only buy wild caught because they were sturdier and healthier and as he put his fish in (I think it was an arowana) I felt absolutely awful for this poor fish. Imagine, being put into a tank and never again swimming in a huge river basin.

Not to place blame only on fish people, I would also never own a wild caught bird or mammal either and there are plenty of mammal and bird species that are wild caught.

 

I'm actually hoping to find and purchase wild-caught cories and if it employs someone and also helps in conservation, then I'm all for it. I actually find it more ethical than mass-farmed fishes.

 

I'm actually hoping to find and purchase wild-caught cories and if it employs someone and also helps in conservation, then I'm all for it. I actually find it more ethical than mass-farmed fishes.

I'm curious, how does it help in conservation? Actually curious and want to know, not being snarky or accusing.

 

Biologists go out and study wild populations ,collecting a few specimens ,then makes a report if any are threatened. Studies like that get the ball rolling on conservation.

 

Biologists go out and study wild populations ,collecting a few specimens ,then makes a report if any are threatened. Studies like that get the ball rolling on conservation.

Doesn't over collection/fishing affect the population negatively though? I understand that having them watch them is good but it's kind of like if conservationists were around 200 years ago and said , "we notice there aren't as many bison, maybe we shouldn't hunt them so much." It was overhunting (for lack of a better word) that almost killed them all, isn't that what could potentially happen if people are overfishing in areas?

 

Overfishing is different than collecting in small, managed numbers. I can't remember where, but I was looking at a breeder who specialized in taking wild caught fish from endangered habitats and breeding them to help preserve the species.

What is YT?

 

Overfishing is different than collecting in small, managed numbers. I can't remember where, but I was looking at a breeder who specialized in taking wild caught fish from endangered habitats and breeding them to help preserve the species.

What is YT?

I was also wondering what YT was.

 

What is YT?

I was also wondering what YT was.

Youtube

 

I'm curious, how does it help in conservation? Actually curious and want to know, not being snarky or accusing.

Here's a link: . Give it a good look around. It's better than anything I can explain myself.
If you're still against it, then that's fine. Just know that, regardless of your stance, you and every hobbyist as a fishkeeper are still benefiting from it, indirectly. After all, it all had to start somewhere.

 

I see it as an experienced Ram keeper, my wild caught Ram is very safe and well cared for. She has constant protection from any predators, healthy and well balanced meals in abundance, and clean water. I even use an RO system to make sure her water is soft and acidic just like where she’s from.

 

I won't buy wild caught fish. There is no tank in the world that is large enough to be the same as being in the wild. I watched someone on youtube once and he was saying he would only buy wild caught because they were sturdier and healthier and as he put his fish in (I think it was an arowana) I felt absolutely awful for this poor fish. Imagine, being put into a tank and never again swimming in a huge river basin.

Not to place blame only on fish people, I would also never own a wild caught bird or mammal either and there are plenty of mammal and bird species that are wild caught.

What about lion fish which are an invasive species now?

 

What about lion fish which are an invasive species now?

There are a TON of invasive species, a lot of them aren’t really a problem. For example, Texas Cichlids can be found all the way in Tennessee. That said, some of them are big problems.

 

I won't buy wild caught fish. There is no tank in the world that is large enough to be the same as being in the wild. I watched someone on youtube once and he was saying he would only buy wild caught because they were sturdier and healthier and as he put his fish in (I think it was an arowana) I felt absolutely awful for this poor fish. Imagine, being put into a tank and never again swimming in a huge river basin.

Not to place blame only on fish people, I would also never own a wild caught bird or mammal either and there are plenty of mammal and bird species that are wild caught.

Just to play the devils advocate and evaluate every side, the fish in the tank doesn't have to worry about declining habitat (which arguably has a larger effect on their populations than the hobby). And given that the hobby works on captive breeding and conservation efforts it can't be 100% doom and gloom for the fish when it gets taken from the wild.

 

Maybe its just me but I believe that if you have ethical issues with fish keeping you shouldnt be keeping fish. And as far as permits go no way

I actually feel the opposite, that it's the people who have no ethical issues with any aspect of the fish keeping hobby who shouldn't be keeping fish (not saying that's you). In my experience, most serious fishkeepers have some level of ethical dilemma about the hobby, with the difference being where they draw the line. Some folks draw the line at tattooed fish, some at wild-caught fish, some at common goldfish kept in bowls. If someone has absolutely zero concerns about the ethics of the hobby and industry, then what's to stop them putting a koi in a 1/4 gallon bowl or a lion fish in a freshwater tank because saltwater sounds too difficult. Engaging with the ethics of the hobby doesn't mean hating the hobby; it means respecting the hobby (and the fish) enough to learn what practices are best.

 

My opinion with the whole thing is if your concerned with ethics I suggest you don't keep fish or any other pet. Even if a fish isn't wild caught what right do you have to keep it in a tank? It originally came from wild caught so it should have a LOT more room than a tank. As for the morphs, they are mostly morphed now, unless will caught. We REALLY don't know when our fish are "thriving", they can't tell us. So how do we know? We don't. We learned to keep fish alive and to breed by trial and error. If it weren't for those fish keepers years back and them having wild caught fish, the hobby wouldn't even exist. So no, I have no ethics against fish keeping.

 

Actually we do know if our will thrive in certain set up or not. It comes from years of observations from Hobbiests as well as the scientific community.

 

Interesting thread. I can't help but smile at the number of people who express an ethical concern regarding certain aspects of fish-keeping (or hunting, or eating meat, or...or...well, you get the idea) but continue to do those things. At the other end of the spectrum are those uncommon individuals who claim to be totally free of any ethical constraints or conundrums. Must be nice to be so worry free.

We have folks who are concerned by the human propensity to arbitrarily decide which creatures are "born to live", and which others are "born to die". News flash, folks: we, all of us, every human and every other creature, are all born to die. It's going to happen. If we utilize some animals to provide food for other animals...or for ourselves...that seems to me like a natural thing, not something about which to be ethically concerned. Far worse to keep carnivorous animals like dogs or cats, and then subject them to a life of eating artificial foods containing no meat.

I keep aquarium fish...I also sport fish...I am an ardent birdwatcher...I am an avid hunter...and all of these things are ways to connect with nature. Not merely as an observer, but as a participant. When I was a youngster growing up, I caught critters in the wild and brought them home as pets. I learned a lot about them, I lost some, and I would no longer do many of those things today.

But in today's world, in our fervent quest to protect nature and to be "ethical", we caution children never to do anything more than watch. Don't touch, don't interfere, don't experiment, don't do anything...just watch. And then, we expect them to somehow grow up with an appreciation and respect and love for nature. This will never happen. The interaction is extremely important, and it becomes more and more difficult to experience every day. Keeping fish as "prisoners" in our little glass boxes is one of the only types of contact that many urban people will ever have with nature. So, do it in a responsible manner, be humane, be ethical, and above all be thankful that you even have the opportunity and the desire to do so.

 

Doesn't over collection/fishing affect the population negatively though? I understand that having them watch them is good but it's kind of like if conservationists were around 200 years ago and said , "we notice there aren't as many bison, maybe we shouldn't hunt them so much." It was overhunting (for lack of a better word) that almost killed them all, isn't that what could potentially happen if people are overfishing in areas?

It all depends on the country, area, location, political situation, local habits, education, common sense, etc etc....

I personally don't like fish to be caught from the wild for our hobby. There are a.lot of species on the red list cause of this.
Others still are doing wel.

Shortcut : When we humans appear in the area normally we don't bring any good to the locals, the environment, etc....
We NEVER did in my opinion.

 

Doesn't over collection/fishing affect the population negatively though? I understand that having them watch them is good but it's kind of like if conservationists were around 200 years ago and said , "we notice there aren't as many bison, maybe we shouldn't hunt them so much." It was overhunting (for lack of a better word) that almost killed them all, isn't that what could potentially happen if people are overfishing in areas?

Collecting and hunting are 2 very different things. That's a bad analogy. Biologists collect them in an effort to breed them and up the population. Some are also given to breeders for the hobby and to return to the wild. Yes there's plenty of poachers who just take from the wild for the hobby just for profit, but that's not what I was talking about there.

 

Interesting thread. I can't help but smile at the number of people who express an ethical concern regarding certain aspects of fish-keeping (or hunting, or eating meat, or...or...well, you get the idea) but continue to do those things. At the other end of the spectrum are those uncommon individuals who claim to be totally free of any ethical constraints or conundrums. Must be nice to be so worry free.

We have folks who are concerned by the human propensity to arbitrarily decide which creatures are "born to live", and which others are "born to die". News flash, folks: we, all of us, every human and every other creature, are all born to die. It's going to happen. If we utilize some animals to provide food for other animals...or for ourselves...that seems to me like a natural thing, not something about which to be ethically concerned. Far worse to keep carnivorous animals like dogs or cats, and then subject them to a life of eating artificial foods containing no meat.

I keep aquarium fish...I also sport fish...I am an ardent birdwatcher...I am an avid hunter...and all of these things are ways to connect with nature. Not merely as an observer, but as a participant. When I was a youngster growing up, I caught critters in the wild and brought them home as pets. I learned a lot about them, I lost some, and I would no longer do many of those things today.

But in today's world, in our fervent quest to protect nature and to be "ethical", we caution children never to do anything more than watch. Don't touch, don't interfere, don't experiment, don't do anything...just watch. And then, we expect them to somehow grow up with an appreciation and respect and love for nature. This will never happen. The interaction is extremely important, and it becomes more and more difficult to experience every day. Keeping fish as "prisoners" in our little glass boxes is one of the only types of contact that many urban people will ever have with nature. So, do it in a responsible manner, be humane, be ethical, and above all be thankful that you even have the opportunity and the desire to do so.

The problem is a lot of what humans do is not responsible nor humane, hence the ethical concerns some people express for fish keeping, eating meat, etc
I think your thoughts on interaction leading to love for nature are spot on though

 

The problem is a lot of what humans do is not responsible nor humane, hence the ethical concerns some people express for fish keeping, eating meat, etc...

I agree completely. I am not pretending that I have an answer for this problem, but I sure acknowledge that it exists. I question the use of the term "a lot"...I think that the vast majority of people are basically good, and will not willfully act in an inhumane or destructive manner. It's that 1% degenerate population which is the problem. The tiny group of hunters who act like unfeeling slobs and give the impression that we are all that way; the minute percentage of birdwatchers who trample sensitive areas and stress rare birds in order to add a checkmark to their lists; the sport fishers who pay no attention to size restrictions or bag limits; and so forth. The damage that is done by people like this lives on.

A century-old tree grows in a yard. Thousands of people see it and admire it and appreciate its beauty. Then a single person cuts it down...and it is gone forever, for everyone. How do you solve a problem like that?

 

I disagree that people who have ethical objections to fish keeping shouldn’t be in the hobby. I have ethical objections, but I don’t think the hobby is inherently wrong. I am not perfect, but I do my best to avoid the parts I think are wrong.

Interesting thread. I can't help but smile at the number of people who express an ethical concern regarding certain aspects of fish-keeping (or hunting, or eating meat, or...or...well, you get the idea) but continue to do those things. At the other end of the spectrum are those uncommon individuals who claim to be totally free of any ethical constraints or conundrums. Must be nice to be so worry free.

We have folks who are concerned by the human propensity to arbitrarily decide which creatures are "born to live", and which others are "born to die". News flash, folks: we, all of us, every human and every other creature, are all born to die. It's going to happen. If we utilize some animals to provide food for other animals...or for ourselves...that seems to me like a natural thing, not something about which to be ethically concerned. Far worse to keep carnivorous animals like dogs or cats, and then subject them to a life of eating artificial foods containing no meat.

I keep aquarium fish...I also sport fish...I am an ardent birdwatcher...I am an avid hunter...and all of these things are ways to connect with nature. Not merely as an observer, but as a participant. When I was a youngster growing up, I caught critters in the wild and brought them home as pets. I learned a lot about them, I lost some, and I would no longer do many of those things today.

But in today's world, in our fervent quest to protect nature and to be "ethical", we caution children never to do anything more than watch. Don't touch, don't interfere, don't experiment, don't do anything...just watch. And then, we expect them to somehow grow up with an appreciation and respect and love for nature. This will never happen. The interaction is extremely important, and it becomes more and more difficult to experience every day. Keeping fish as "prisoners" in our little glass boxes is one of the only types of contact that many urban people will ever have with nature. So, do it in a responsible manner, be humane, be ethical, and above all be thankful that you even have the opportunity and the desire to do so.

I’m not sure I smile at the cognitive dissonance, but I do shake my head. One example I see often in the hobby is an objection to feeder fish. People believe feeder fish are cruel, yet have zero problem buying food that is also made from dead fish.

Another example: There was a “monster” fish page that featured many videos of large carnivorous fish eating feeder fish or mice. No one objected, until the person posted a video of a two fish of similar size (can’t remember what kinds. one was a catfish and I think the other was a cichlid). The fish fought each other and the catfish took a large chunk out of the other one. Many people commented how cruel and innapropriate this was. How dare he put those two fish together and let one die! I found this very interesting, and a perfect example of people deciding which creatures have the purpose of dying.

 

I agree completely. I am not pretending that I have an answer for this problem, but I sure acknowledge that it exists. I question the use of the term "a lot"...I think that the vast majority of people are basically good, and will not willfully act in an inhumane or destructive manner. It's that 1% degenerate population which is the problem. The tiny group of hunters who act like unfeeling slobs and give the impression that we are all that way; the minute percentage of birdwatchers who trample sensitive areas and stress rare birds in order to add a checkmark to their lists; the sport fishers who pay no attention to size restrictions or bag limits; and so forth. The damage that is done by people like this lives on.

A century-old tree grows in a yard. Thousands of people see it and admire it and appreciate its beauty. Then a single person cuts it down...and it is gone forever, for everyone. How do you solve a problem like that?

I think hunters/fishers/birdwatchers are actually some of the most responsible people out there actually! They are the ones that have direct motivation for preservation of nature, like us fishkeepers want to protect water systems all around the work where fish live. I believe the most irresponsible and unethical things humans do are factory farming, overfishing, or fish farming in open pens, which the vast majority of people have no involvement in besides creating demand for the continuation

 

There are a TON of invasive species, a lot of them aren’t really a problem. For example, Texas Cichlids can be found all the way in Tennessee. That said, some of them are big problems.

Which ones are problems

 

Which ones are problems

Generally a creature in a habitat creates problems. We create problems. Why! Because we have one biological drive in life. Breed. Not talking ambitions here. Talking deep programming. Multiply and thrive. As habitats adjust and become accustomed to its inhabitants, a cycle naturally starts to take place. A balance if you will. That “balance” is pretty delicate and it doesn’t take much of a ripple to cause a crash. That ripple is usually an invasive. That invader in its drive to survive upsets a something in the balance. Safe bet it’s the food chain but it could be other things. Many other things. Invasive is a name we give it. But when you think about it, life is pretty invasive all around us. Invasive plants come to mind. Insects. Right down to microscopic dudes that are planning to rule the world some day. Ok that last one was a stretch.

 

Which ones are problems

The two big ones right now in the us are common plecos in Florida tearing up river banks and Oscar's in Texas. Being they have no predators they multiply and take over giving the previous fish no habitat or food to survive.

 

The biggest problems are lionfish and Asian carp.

 

I used to have a snake head years ago.
I often wonder where he is today. He was only about 16" in 1986 ??

 

The two big ones right now in the us are common plecos in Florida tearing up river banks and Oscar's in Texas. Being they have no predators they multiply and take over giving the previous fish no habitat or food to survive.

Also carps and snakeheads.
People brought snakehead into the hobbyand released them in the US, and now, being a massive carnivorous fish, it is destroying species, and their habitats as it digs/burrows to an extent moving around the land killing native plants.

Honestly the most invasive species is us.
We would build homes inside!!! IN the ocean if we were allowed.
If it wasn't regulated to hunt, many species like the seacow wouldn't exist as they don't.
We search and destroy for pleasure, and decimate entire populations and ecosystems.

 

Also carps and snakeheads.
People brought snakehead into the hobbyand released them in the US, and now, being a massive carnivorous fish, it is destroying species, and their habitats as it digs/burrows to an extent moving around the land killing native plants.

Honestly the most invasive species is us.
We would build homes inside!!! IN the ocean if we were allowed.
If it wasn't regulated to hunt, many species like the seacow wouldn't exist as they don't.
We search and destroy for pleasure, and decimate entire populations and ecosystems.

So what should we do? Infiltrate the CDC, then find and release some of the deadliest viruses in the world unto humanity ? Nah, I might be cynical, but I'm no misanthrope.

 

So what should we do? Infiltrate the CDC, then find and release some of the deadliest viruses in the world unto humanity ? Nah, I might be cynical, but I'm no misanthrope.

I think there’s probably a middle ground option between “do nothing” and “genocide”

 

I think there’s probably a middle ground option between “do nothing” and “genocide”

That is? Government regulation, like China? Castration?

I'm just entertaining myself here. I'm on a Greyhound bus, and I'm bored.

 

That is? Government regulation, like China? Castration?

I'm just entertaining myself here. I'm on a Greyhound bus, and I'm bored.

I've thoight about regluation.
When I was about 12 I joined a group on facebook called VHEMT.
It's the voluntary human extinction movement lol
Most of them are just antI child and refer to us as the virus/parasite.

I honestly think regulation like with other invasive species could cut down on planetary loss.

While every once in a while I get baby fever, I like to believe now, I'm going to do my part and not repopulate.

I mean...
Do you think it's natural/okay for one person to pop out 20 copies of themselves just because they want to, and because they feel their bloodline is important?

If we think about it like fish breeding, you'll want to cull most of those babies and keep only the best and strongest.
You wouldn't want weak or bad genes to start becoming more prevalent than strong ones.

Also if we think about how angry we get about invasive species humans put places, then why don't we get so mad about the environments we destroy or put ourselves in?
We don't bat an eye if humans ruin an entire species.
But if an animal threatens to ruin a species, we usually see that animal as heinous and needing to be removed.

When I was younger I found a piece of "information" that stated something like every second a few hundred plants and animals go extinct.
Obviously not ones we concern ourselves with like pandas, but ones just as helpful like plants in our rain forests, or smaller micro organisms who are extremely beneficial or possibly hold cures to our diseases.

There is also a 'statistic' that has to do with childrens lives.

It states, since we have no idea who a person will grow into, we can call the upper intelligence of something like 3% of the whole population, as an endangered species.

If intelligence is endangered, I don't think we should be getting rid of it before it becomes intelligent, though I also don't think we should be saving everything, because as we've noticed, most born specimens are not, on the upper half of anything, be it intelligence or gene wise.

I don't know. I feel like if I continue trying to really describe my ideas I may get in trouble lol

 

I've thoight about regluation.
When I was about 12 I joined a group on facebook called VHEMT.
It's the voluntary human extinction movement lol
Most of them are just antI child and refer to us as the virus/parasite.

I honestly think regulation like with other invasive species could cut down on planetary loss.

While every once in a while I get baby fever, I like to believe now, I'm going to do my part and not repopulate.

I mean...
Do you think it's natural/okay for one person to pop out 20 copies of themselves just because they want to, and because they feel their bloodline is important?

If we think about it like fish breeding, you'll want to cull most of those babies and keep only the best and strongest.
You wouldn't want weak or bad genes to start becoming more prevalent than strong ones.

Also if we think about how angry we get about invasive species humans put places, then why don't we get so mad about the environments we destroy or put ourselves in?
We don't bat an eye if humans ruin an entire species.
But if an animal threatens to ruin a species, we usually see that animal as heinous and needing to be removed.

When I was younger I found a piece of "information" that stated something like every second a few hundred plants and animals go extinct.
Obviously not ones we concern ourselves with like pandas, but ones just as helpful like plants in our rain forests, or smaller micro organisms who are extremely beneficial or possibly hold cures to our diseases.

There is also a 'statistic' that has to do with childrens lives.

It states, since we have no idea who a person will grow into, we can call the upper intelligence of something like 3% of the whole population, as an endangered species.

If intelligence is endangered, I don't think we should be getting rid of it before it becomes intelligent, though I also don't think we should be saving everything, because as we've noticed, most born specimens are not, on the upper half of anything, be it intelligence or gene wise.

I don't know. I feel like if I continue trying to really describe my ideas I may get in trouble lol

Oh boy. I didn't expect such a response. You covered quite a few topics. Give me some time to respond. I'll need my laptop.

 

That is? Government regulation, like China? Castration?

I'm just entertaining myself here. I'm on a Greyhound bus, and I'm bored.

Fun fact if a married couple decides together they do not want children (no other medical issue or reasoning) and look for a permanent reliable form of birth control the doctors are unwilling to perform a vasectomy or tubal litigation. Doctors are even reluctant to perform a vasectomy on a 40yr old with 2 kids.
Proof the majority doesn't want population control.

 

I think pets in general drive young people to have a passion for animals and preserving animals. Its hard to appreciate animals without up-close experience with them. I think if we stopped keeping animals all together, they'd be in greater jeopardy. We'd simply stop caring as much. And sure, some people would still care due to inborn curiosity, but the effect would be less then with those who grow up with animals and go off to become biologists and conservationists.

While I believe fish are more complex then we give them credit for, I think most animals are unable to comprehend the ''greater picture''. And even if they could, we have no means to communicate with them, so its rather pointless to speculate whether they'd like to remain in the wild or be kept safe and fed by humans. We can only ever guess. We can only compare it to what we'd prefer as humans, which is inherently flawed.