Endler's Livebearers Going Extinct?

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CrazedHoosier

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So I impulse bought a few endler's a couple days ago, and I absolutely love them. Before them, my favorite livebearer were guppies. I actually wanted to breed them and make a hybrid, but research and advice told me not to. Are endler's really to the point where there's few pure ones left? How severe is it because everyone makes it seem like it's very bad...
How do you tell if you have a pure-blood endler?
 

Themaniac19

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I'm not too sure if this is relevant, but if their blood lines are like that of pure bred dogs (inbred with a myriad of health issues), then I say you should put your money in the hybridized ones. I personally think it's unethical to support such a practice. Again, this is only if this is what is happening, which is the vibe I'm getting from this thread.
 

smee82

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I'm not too sure if this is relevant, but if their blood lines are like that of pure bred dogs (inbred with a myriad of health issues), then I say you should put your money in the hybridized ones. I personally think it's unethical to support such a practice. Again, this is only if this is what is happening, which is the vibe I'm getting from this thread.
No its not like dog breeds, its more like the northen and southern white rino except its already too late for the northen white rino.
 

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The issue is that in their habitat, guppies were apparently introduced. They have been used in mosquito control for ages, and someone didn't do homework, from what I have heard (I have seen no independent confirmation, but I haven't looked either). Endlers (P wingei) and guppies (P reticulata) are different species, but the split is a historically recent one so they can hybridize. This is not a question like dog breeds (all one species), but one of distinct species (dogs and wolves).
The introduced mosquito control guppies and wild endlers have crossed, so that endlers as a species may no longer exist in their habitat. Hybridization in the hobby is a blender that reduces different things to sameness. If it happens naturally, it can be creative. Where 2 species meet in nature, you can end up with 3. There's a swordtail species created by natural hybridization 30,000 years ago or so. When humans cause it, I think we lose out.
The passion for destruction in the aquarium hobby immediately made endler guppy crosses a hot ticket. The guppy people wanted the wild fish colours, and the endler people wanted the guppy size. Most of the time, they got neither.
Are endlers gone? Probably not, but identifying non hybridized strains is not easy. All it takes is one or two hobbyists crossing the fish, and then realizing there's more money in selling endlers than in selling mutts. If they shut up about what they did, and sell them as endlers, the hybrid spreads out. Since linebreeders and sloppy hobbyists started crossing guppies and endlers 25 years ago, the odds aren't good.
Hybrids make good ornamental fish. They are fairly useless if you want to use your hobby to study nature or to look at life's rich pageant, but very few aquarists actually care about the natural history of their fish. So on that level, it probably doesn't matter. It would be nice if there were a club somewhere maintaining individual species who are wandering homeless through the hobby, so future generations could see what they were before we destroyed their habitats. Somewhere out there, there could be a group keeping pedigree wild endlers.
 
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CrazedHoosier

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The issue is that in their habitat, guppies were apparently introduced. They have been used in mosquito control for ages, and someone didn't do homework, from what I have heard (I have seen no independent confirmation, but I haven't looked either). Endlers (P wingei) and guppies (P reticulata) are different species, but the split is a historically recent one so they can hybridize. This is not a question like dog breeds (all one species), but one of distinct species (dogs and wolves).
The introduced mosquito control guppies and wild endlers have crossed, so that endlers as a species may no longer exist in their habitat. Hybridization in the hobby is a blender that reduces different things to sameness. If it happens naturally, it can be creative. Where 2 species meet in nature, you can end up with 3. There's a swordtail species created by natural hybridization 30,000 years ago or so. When humans cause it, I think we lose out.
The passion for destruction in the aquarium hobby immediately made endler guppy crosses a hot ticket. The guppy people wanted the wild fish colours, and the endler people wanted the guppy size. Most of the time, they got neither.
Are endlers gone? Probably not, but identifying non hybridized strains is not easy. All it takes is one or two hobbyists crossing the fish, and then realizing there's more money in selling endlers than in selling mutts. If they shut up about what they did, and sell them as endlers, the hybrid spreads out. Since linebreeders and sloppy hobbyists started crossing guppies and endlers 25 years ago, the odds aren't good.
Hybrids make good ornamental fish. They are fairly useless if you want to use your hobby to study nature or to look at life's rich pageant, but very few aquarists actually care about the natural history of their fish. So on that level, it probably doesn't matter. It would be nice if there were a club somewhere maintaining individual species who are wandering homeless through the hobby, so future generations could see what they were before we destroyed their habitats. Somewhere out there, there could be a group keeping pedigree wild endlers.
Do my endler's look pure or mixed? Notice how small they are compared to my honeys (sorry for the instagram link, it's all I have of them right now) http://instagr.am/p/BSZC41NA_P4/
 

NavigatorBlack

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I'll answer to bump it to any possible endler's experts out there - I have not kept any of the endler's strains since before they had been linebred into the various non-hybridized "classes".
To me, with endler's, if you don't know the pedigree, it pretty well has to be treated as a hybrid - ie, as an aquarium strain with no claims to be the real thing.
 

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There are a few people that maintain wild stock of Endlers that have not been line bred. Their lineage can be traced back to the collection site. The very vast majority of Endlers are not pure. Your Endlers do not look pure. Their tails are over sized, coloration doesn't look correct from what I can see.
 
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CrazedHoosier

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There are a few people that maintain wild stock of Endlers that have not been line bred. Their lineage can be traced back to the collection site. The very vast majority of Endlers are not pure. Your Endlers do not look pure. Their tails are over sized, coloration doesn't look correct from what I can see.
So does this mean I can go ahead and breed them with guppies?
 

allllien

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The issue is that in their habitat, guppies were apparently introduced. They have been used in mosquito control for ages, and someone didn't do homework, from what I have heard (I have seen no independent confirmation, but I haven't looked either). Endlers (P wingei) and guppies (P reticulata) are different species, but the split is a historically recent one so they can hybridize. This is not a question like dog breeds (all one species), but one of distinct species (dogs and wolves).
The introduced mosquito control guppies and wild endlers have crossed, so that endlers as a species may no longer exist in their habitat. Hybridization in the hobby is a blender that reduces different things to sameness. If it happens naturally, it can be creative. Where 2 species meet in nature, you can end up with 3. There's a swordtail species created by natural hybridization 30,000 years ago or so. When humans cause it, I think we lose out.
The passion for destruction in the aquarium hobby immediately made endler guppy crosses a hot ticket. The guppy people wanted the wild fish colours, and the endler people wanted the guppy size. Most of the time, they got neither.
Are endlers gone? Probably not, but identifying non hybridized strains is not easy. All it takes is one or two hobbyists crossing the fish, and then realizing there's more money in selling endlers than in selling mutts. If they shut up about what they did, and sell them as endlers, the hybrid spreads out. Since linebreeders and sloppy hobbyists started crossing guppies and endlers 25 years ago, the odds aren't good.
Hybrids make good ornamental fish. They are fairly useless if you want to use your hobby to study nature or to look at life's rich pageant, but very few aquarists actually care about the natural history of their fish. So on that level, it probably doesn't matter. It would be nice if there were a club somewhere maintaining individual species who are wandering homeless through the hobby, so future generations could see what they were before we destroyed their habitats. Somewhere out there, there could be a group keeping pedigree wild endlers.
Ah, I see. I can see them going extinct in their natural habitat, but as far as aquarium bred ones, there seems to be a lot of 'purists' in the aquarium hobby now, who only breed (and don't mix) pure endlers. At least here in Australia anyway. It seems every aquarium shop here has a special tank dedicated to pure endlers, and a different tank for guppies and/or hybrids.
 

Cichlidnut

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Ah, I see. I can see them going extinct in their natural habitat, but as far as aquarium bred ones, there seems to be a lot of 'purists' in the aquarium hobby now, who only breed (and don't mix) pure endlers. At least here in Australia anyway. It seems every aquarium shop here has a special tank dedicated to pure endlers, and a different tank for guppies and/or hybrids.
The problem is, there is no way to prove pet store Endlers are pure. Unless there is legitimate documentation leading back to the collection site, they can't be considered pure. If they look pure with no papers, they are P class. There are many people that will say they have N class fish with no proof, to drive the price.
 
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