Endler jumped out, what now?

B3TT45

I got 3 male endlers last week and quarantined (still am) them in a makeshift 13 gallon sterilite storage container, seeded sponge filter, heater, and a few large plastic decor (included floating plastic plants for cover). No lid, since in my mind having the 3 inches below the top of the container was okay and the actual lid for the container is really difficult to poke holes in, and it’s airtight. I was clearly very wrong.
The fish were showing aggression/dominance display behavior towards each other, but I have no idea what is considered “normal behavior” for them or not. No one was getting hurt but they did seem stressed.
Today I noticed I could only find 2 and after frantically searching for a while, I found the poor dried up body about a foot away from the container (how did he even jump that far!?).
Like the real jerks they are, now the 2 remaining fish actually seem much healthier. Their colors are significantly brighter, they’re much more active and friendly together, and no more aggression that I can see.

I do want to replace my poor fallen endler since I like the idea of a trio for my community tank, but I worry if I add another endler now after the 2 remaining guys are singing kumbaya that the aggression will resume or that they’ll feel like the new fish is invading their territory. Should I wait before getting another one? Should I give up the idea of a third? If I do add a third, can I add a different coloration, or should they all be the same? I’d like to hear your thoughts.

I also should mention that now I decided to lay the container’s lid over the top but leave it a little cracked on the side so at least some air flows through it. I don’t know if the slight opening is enough though. I’m also worried they may still jump through that crack.
 

Turnkeyagenda24

you should probably put them in a tank with a lid instead of the bucket. that way they don jump out.
 

B3TT45

you should probably put them in a tank with a lid instead of the bucket. that way they don jump out.
Yea I put the lid of the container on it but cracked a bit for air. Hope they don’t squeeze through the opening.

If you can, could you share some insight on my other questions on the post-

Should I wait before getting another one? Should I give up the idea of a third? If I do add a third, can I add a different coloration, or should they all be the same?
 

Turnkeyagenda24

i have had no experience with endlers, but i would put them in a established aquarium with hiding spots before adding a third because thr males might fight.
 

B3TT45

i have had no experience with endlers, but i would put them in a established aquarium with hiding spots before adding a third because thr males might fight.
I'll do that, I'll just get the third when I'm done with their QT
 

Flyfisha

B3TT45,
You write of having a sponge filter. If that is run with an air pump you have plenty of air getting under the lid as the pump will/ should be running 24/7 .

Are they true endlers? They don’t nip or fight.
If they are guppy endler cross then yes they will nip fins etc even kill each other.
The quarantinetank is 13 gallons. How big is the main tank and what other fish are in there ?

True endlers are not aggressive but dance to decide how is king for a day.

In short I think you could get more endlers.?

A photo and a little more information would help?
 

B3TT45

B3TT45,
You write of having a sponge filter. If that is run with an air pump you have plenty of air getting under the lid as the pump will/ should be running 24/7 .

Are they true endlers? They don’t nip or fight.
If they are guppy endler cross then yes they will nip fins etc even kill each other.
The quarantinetank is 13 gallons. How big is the main tank and what other fish are in there ?

True endlers are not aggressive but dance to decide how is king for a day.

In short I think you could get more endlers.?

A photo and a little more information would help?
Thanks for your insight, had no idea the sponge filter was enough.
I highly doubt these are true endlers as they were kept in a tank with guppies. The main tank is 29 gal and they were planned to be the first fish inhabitants (only 2 nerites and 5 neocaridina shrimp atm).

I actually REALLY jinxed myself with my last comment... I caught them full-on fighting now. One was repeatedly chasing and biting the other one (as well as doing the little dance all the time) and they're glass surfing all over the container like crazy. They're zipping around from one wall to the next to glass surf.
I'm contemplating returning them now... I need to separate them. I also worry if I return 1 and keep the remaining one that it'll be too aggressive for my future community (and also aren't they supposed to be social? Keeping just 1 seems cruel).

Here's a pic of my makeshift sterilite quarantine "tank". The giant silk plant in the middle is really tall so it's leaves float on the surface providing cover. I also ripped apart another plastic plant to float it's big purple leaves for more cover.
I was able to take a screenshot of a video (sucks I can't upload) to show you how they look like.
 

Flyfisha

Thanks for the photo B3TT45 that helps a lot. That is at least to look at a black bar endler male. The only true colour they come in as wild fish. OK of course unless it cost a fortune it has likely got some guppy blood? But I would call that a endler/ guppy as we have to call all endlers in Australia. The other fish sold as endlers can have all the colours and tail types of guppies.

I have endlers by the bucket load and often use them as “ keep a tank cycled “ fish . I toss them into tanks at random times. I have males in groups as small as 3 or 4 without seeing any aggressive behaviour. I have males in a tank with a few hundred and still see no aggressive behaviour. What you are seeing is just normal male displays . They do that all day long, well mostly in the morning but that is normal behaviour.

I am confused as to why you have them in a quarantine tank if they are the only fish?

I am confused as to how you say you have a cycled tank but no fish. Was it a fishless cycle you made after many weeks of adding ammonia/ fish food? Or did you just add a bott of bacteria one week ago?

They might settle down more with a group of 5 or 6?

Just for your information.
I have lost to many male endlers to count because of them finding a small crack to jump out. Now you know they jump you have learnt it for yourself. You will not forget the experience. As sad as it is.

Do you have a test kit?
 

B3TT45

Thanks for the photo B3TT45 that helps a lot. That is at least to look at a black bar endler male. The only true colour they come in as wild fish. OK of course unless it cost a fortune it has likely got some guppy blood? But I would call that a endler/ guppy as we have to call all endlers in Australia. The other fish sold as endlers can have all the colours and tail types of guppies.

I have endlers by the bucket load and often use them as “ keep a tank cycled “ fish . I toss them into tanks at random times. I have males in groups as small as 3 or 4 without seeing any aggressive behaviour. I have males in a tank with a few hundred and still see no aggressive behaviour. What you are seeing is just normal male displays . They do that all day long, well mostly in the morning but that is normal behaviour.

I am confused as to why you have them in a quarantine tank if they are the only fish?

I am confused as to how you say you have a cycled tank but no fish. Was it a fishless cycle you made after many weeks of adding ammonia/ fish food? Or did you just add a bott of bacteria one week ago?

They might settle down more with a group of 5 or 6?

Just for your information.
I have lost to many male endlers to count because of them finding a small crack to jump out. Now you know they jump you have learnt it for yourself. You will not forget the experience. As sad as it is.

Do you have a test kit?
Thank you so much for your detailed response. I definitely have learned my lesson, clearly just lowering the water line isn’t enough.

To answer all of your statements (sorry this is long):
I have them quarantined because I worry they may bring ich or other issues into my main tank’s water, even if they’re not sick themselves. I have heard of stories where once ich (or other diseases) is introduced to the main tank it just doesn’t leave. I’d like to see your perspective on this. Also, I don’t want to have to separate them to medicate if need be, because of my inverts.

I did a long fishless cycle with aquasoil as my source of ammonia and ran the full course of seachem stability (referring to the main tank). Haven’t measured any ammonia or nitrites for weeks and am prolonging water changes (doing every 2 weeks currently) to keep the nitrates enough to sustain the cycle. I also have not been removing the occasional uneaten food I throw for my inverts to keep the cycle. On top of that, I have a ton of plants which probably helps. I have the API master test kit.

You mentioned males commonly do the dominance chasing and dancing behavior, but is actual fighting with biting/nipping also common? When there were 3 they would hide with clamped fins to avoid each other. What about the glass surfing?

Because of the future community stocking I want, I feel like the tank would be overstocked if I added more than 3. This is why I’m hesitant to get more. Curious to see what your insight on how much bioload they contribute is. I also worry that if these guys are aggressive enough to each other, they may also be this aggressive to tankmates.
 

PAcanis

(how did he even jump that far!?)

He probably did not jump that far.
He flopped that far :(
 

Flyfisha

That is good news. You have built the colonies of bacteria by feeding ammonia.

A small point about they way you wrote “ to keep the nitrates enough to sustain the cycle “ but one I feel inclined to comment on because it shows a difference between us in the understanding of the nitrogen cycle. Nitrates are bacteria poop not the bacteria themselves. You can do 100% water changes every day for a month and still have healthy colonies of bacteria as long as they have ammonia to eat. (occasionally ). Bacteria live ON hard surfaces. They live ON the filter but also on the gravel, glass , rocks and ornaments. This is why we don’t clean all the gravel in the same week and we only rinse our filters. With fish we need to be careful not to shock the fish with large water changes that MIGHT have different water parameters. However even with fish it’s possible to change 45% of the water every 4 hours . As long as the fish have time to adjust to any water parameter changes we can change water every day multiple times on the same day.

All fish glass surf in a new tank. It’s like they are learning the size of the tank ? That’s what it seems like anyway.

I am of the opinion that ich is a parasite, a living creature. It dies out without a host in 30 days. I am of the opinion that ich is killed by medication. The strain of ich in Australia is not killed by heat and it doesn’t stop reproducing in hot water. I have no experience using hot water to stop it reproducing. Wither or not ich can continue to survive in a tank when Americans use heat to stop it multiplying I can not say . It definitely does not work for the Australian strain. I believe the heat resistant strain may be in other countries?

The same medication is used in Australia and the US, malachite green does not kill ch shrimp, fry ,tetras , Australian native shrimp or pest snails regardless of what the instructions say on the packaging when the instructions are followed. Nor does it kill when the medication is poured in by eye and not measured accurately according to ALL my local club members. I have used ich medication (malachite green) multiple time to kill ich at a full dose on tetras ,fry ,cherry shrimp etc and only once had badly infected fish die from the parasites I believe?

Yes PAcanis the fish moved by flopping, I was trying to not generate that image.

All I can say is the Australian endlers we have are not aggressive to other species. They do not nip. The adults don’t eat many young. The juveniles do eat the smaller fry however.

When water parameters are a long way from ideal tetras become much more aggressive. Like if the PH is EXTREMELY high. High enough to irritate the skin of tetras.

I have endlers in pest numbers , because I have females in other tanks. But if I didn’t I would not suggest having them in small groups. I think all fish do better in large numbers of the same species. In an ideal world I would only have a couple of species in each tank. This is suggesting you decide what species you wish to have in a tank and that it is only humans that believe in the idea of a community tank.
 

Flyfisha

That is good news. You have built the colonies of bacteria by feeding ammonia.

A small point about they way you wrote “ to keep the nitrates enough to sustain the cycle “ but one I feel inclined to comment on because it shows a difference between us in the understanding of the nitrogen cycle. Nitrates are bacteria poop not the bacteria themselves. You can do 100% water changes every day for a month and still have healthy colonies of bacteria as long as they have ammonia to eat. (occasionally ). Bacteria live ON hard surfaces. They live ON the filter but also on the gravel, glass , rocks and ornaments. This is why we don’t clean all the gravel in the same week and we only rinse our filters. With fish we need to be careful not to shock the fish with large water changes that MIGHT have different water parameters. However even with fish it’s possible to change 45% of the water every 4 hours . As long as the fish have time to adjust to any water parameter changes we can change water every day multiple times on the same day.

All fish glass surf in a new tank. It’s like they are learning the size of the tank ? That’s what it seems like anyway.

I am of the opinion that ich is a parasite, a living creature. It dies out without a host in 30 days. I am of the opinion that ich is killed by medication. The strain of ich in Australia is not killed by heat and it doesn’t stop reproducing in hot water. I have no experience using hot water to stop it reproducing. Wither or not ich can continue to survive in a tank when Americans use heat to stop it multiplying I can not say . It definitely does not work for the Australian strain. I believe the heat resistant strain may be in other countries?

The same medication is used in Australia and the US, malachite green does not kill ch shrimp, fry ,tetras , Australian native shrimp or pest snails regardless of what the instructions say on the packaging when the instructions are followed. Nor does it kill when the medication is poured in by eye and not measured accurately according to ALL my local club members. I have used ich medication (malachite green) multiple time to kill ich at a full dose on tetras ,fry ,cherry shrimp etc and only once had badly infected fish die from the parasites I believe?

Yes PAcanis the fish moved by flopping, I was trying to not generate that image.

All I can say is the Australian endlers we have are not aggressive to other species. They do not nip. The adults don’t eat many young. The juveniles do eat the smaller fry however.

When water parameters are a long way from ideal tetras become much more aggressive. Like if the PH is EXTREMELY high. High enough to irritate the skin of tetras.

I have endlers in pest numbers , because I have females in other tanks. But if I didn’t I would not suggest having them in small groups. I think all fish do better in large numbers of the same species. In an ideal world I would only have a couple of species in each tank.
 

B3TT45

That is good news. You have built the colonies of bacteria by feeding ammonia.

A small point about they way you wrote “ to keep the nitrates enough to sustain the cycle “ but one I feel inclined to comment on because it shows a difference between us in the understanding of the nitrogen cycle. Nitrates are bacteria poop not the bacteria themselves. You can do 100% water changes every day for a month and still have healthy colonies of bacteria as long as they have ammonia to eat. (occasionally ). Bacteria live ON hard surfaces. They live ON the filter but also on the gravel, glass , rocks and ornaments. This is why we don’t clean all the gravel in the same week and we only rinse our filters. With fish we need to be careful not to shock the fish with large water changes that MIGHT have different water parameters. However even with fish it’s possible to change 45% of the water every 4 hours . As long as the fish have time to adjust to any water parameter changes we can change water every day multiple times on the same day.

All fish glass surf in a new tank. It’s like they are learning the size of the tank ? That’s what it seems like anyway.

I am of the opinion that ich is a parasite, a living creature. It dies out without a host in 30 days. I am of the opinion that ich is killed by medication. The strain of ich in Australia is not killed by heat and it doesn’t stop reproducing in hot water. I have no experience using hot water to stop it reproducing. Wither or not ich can continue to survive in a tank when Americans use heat to stop it multiplying I can not say . It definitely does not work for the Australian strain. I believe the heat resistant strain may be in other countries?

The same medication is used in Australia and the US, malachite green does not kill ch shrimp, fry ,tetras , Australian native shrimp or pest snails regardless of what the instructions say on the packaging when the instructions are followed. Nor does it kill when the medication is poured in by eye and not measured accurately according to ALL my local club members. I have used ich medication (malachite green) multiple time to kill ich at a full dose on tetras ,fry ,cherry shrimp etc and only once had badly infected fish die from the parasites I believe?

Yes PAcanis the fish moved by flopping, I was trying to not generate that image.

All I can say is the Australian endlers we have are not aggressive to other species. They do not nip. The adults don’t eat many young. The juveniles do eat the smaller fry however.

When water parameters are a long way from ideal tetras become much more aggressive. Like if the PH is EXTREMELY high. High enough to irritate the skin of tetras.

I have endlers in pest numbers , because I have females in other tanks. But if I didn’t I would not suggest having them in small groups. I think all fish do better in large numbers of the same species. In an ideal world I would only have a couple of species in each tank.
Thank you for giving your insight, definitely helped my understanding. Now that you mention it’s common behavior, maybe adding 2 more (bringing the number to 4) would be better? Can I add them to where they’re currently quarantined or should I wait now that they’ve established territory?

Also on that topic, considering your position on diseases, do you think it’s more sensible to then add the endlers to the main tank (including the 2 possible new ones)?
 

Pattymarner

I got 3 male endlers last week and quarantined (still am) them in a makeshift 13 gallon sterilite storage container, seeded sponge filter, heater, and a few large plastic decor (included floating plastic plants for cover). No lid, since in my mind having the 3 inches below the top of the container was okay and the actual lid for the container is really difficult to poke holes in, and it’s airtight. I was clearly very wrong.
The fish were showing aggression/dominance display behavior towards each other, but I have no idea what is considered “normal behavior” for them or not. No one was getting hurt but they did seem stressed.
Today I noticed I could only find 2 and after frantically searching for a while, I found the poor dried up body about a foot away from the container (how did he even jump that far!?).
Like the real jerks they are, now the 2 remaining fish actually seem much healthier. Their colors are significantly brighter, they’re much more active and friendly together, and no more aggression that I can see.

I do want to replace my poor fallen endler since I like the idea of a trio for my community tank, but I worry if I add another endler now after the 2 remaining guys are singing kumbaya that the aggression will resume or that they’ll feel like the new fish is invading their territory. Should I wait before getting another one? Should I give up the idea of a third? If I do add a third, can I add a different coloration, or should they all be the same? I’d like to hear your thoughts.

I also should mention that now I decided to lay the container’s lid over the top but leave it a little cracked on the side so at least some air flows through it. I don’t know if the slight opening is enough though. I’m also worried they may still jump through that crack.
I have had fish jump out of the smallest holes. Amazing really. No sign of any aggression, just stupid luck.
 

Flyfisha

B3TT45
i really don’t think male endlers are territorial?

I wrote of parasites and how they are killed or are alive. Parasites are living creatures they are not a disease?

Buying fish always has a risk of introducing a disease. Buying endlers from the same shop or possibly even the same school has less risk than most purchases.
 

BlockHead1981

Get a lid, fish jump
 

B3TT45

Here's an update:
Thanks to Flyfisha and Turnkeyagenda24's insight, I decided to keep the two endlers and get two more. Everything's surprisingly gone well, no immediate aggression and they are all shoaling together, super cute! They haven't even bothered the shrimp so far.
I also ditched the QT and just put them all in my main display. Flyfisha you saved me annoyance and extra money on the electric bill by ditching the QT for now.
I did some research and the parasite meds I have (Prazipro) are indeed safe for inverts and my bacteria cycle so I can definitely dose it in the main if anything pops up. I'm still on the fence whether to proactively medicate or not, leaning more towards no now.
I'll write updates as to how it goes and if the aggression returns. It's just the first day with all of them together so who knows if this lasts. Once again thank you all for helping me understand Endler behavior more and helping me throughout this.
 

emeraldking

In general, keeping multiple endler males in one tank, shouldn't cause any problems. Unless, the tank is too small. In such a case, dominance may occur.
 

B3TT45

Hey everyone, I felt like I should post an update. There was some noticeable endler aggression/chasing/dominance behavior (I've grown to accept it now) among the four over time but nothing too bad. They also ignored my shrimp which is great.
The glass lid on my tank is pretty snug against the tank, yet there was an impossibly small gap I guess. Another one of the original endlers ended up jumping out from this impossibly small opening, at this point I don't know if I can even do anything to prevent this without suffocating them. I tried adding an extra barrier of airline tubing (inspired by another thread in here) to the edges of the lid. Hope that it dissuades anyone else from jumping.

My water quality is great too, honestly a little too great. Last test I did, right after finding the dried up endler, showed 0 for ammonia and nitrite, 5 for nitrate (which means I need to dose more fertilizer!). It clearly can't be a water parameters thing.
I'm afraid of finding another fish squeezing himself out of an impossible gap. Anything else I can do to prevent this? My tank is about medium planted, plants are everywhere but it's no jungle yet. I just feel like it's something that I'm doing that makes them want to jump :(
 

emeraldking

Well, I do have to mention that most of my tanks are open tanks. So, no lids. And those that I've put a glass plate on, do have a gap as well. So, gasses can evaporate. I hardly have jumping fish till almost none.
But if you're having trouble with jumping fish, a lid is advisable. Maybe something wrong with some parameters that they've got the urge to jump?
 

Flyfisha

I have had the quality of my water questioned before by shop owners when mentioning fish jumping out emeraldking. As a recreational fishing person I have seen many fish jump. It is my opinion that all happy healthy fish jump for joy. I would go so far as to say a fish that does not jump is lethargic and lacking something in its diet . Please don’t think I am trying to start a war of word emeraldking?

I would also question the water level in any tank where fish don’t jump out.
Some modern rimless tanks can look nicer with the water filled up to the very top. I personally like to have every last litre of water possibly in any small tank. This leaves under 1/2 inch - 10 mm for a fish to jump. With the lack of rim offering no overhead protection around the outside edge.
You must be registered to see images
 

emeraldking

I have had the quality of my water questioned before by shop owners when mentioning fish jumping out emeraldking. As a recreational fishing person I have seen many fish jump. It is my opinion that all happy healthy fish jump for joy. I would go so far as to say a fish that does not jump is lethargic and lacking something in its diet . Please don’t think I am trying to start a war of word emeraldking?

I would also question the water level in any tank where fish don’t jump out.
Some modern rimless tanks can look nicer with the water filled up to the very top. I personally like to have every last litre of water possibly in any small tank. This leaves under 1/2 inch - 10 mm for a fish to jump. With the lack of rim offering no overhead protection around the outside edge.
You must be registered to see images
No offense taken... :)

To me if they are vivid in the tank, it's a good sign. Well, mine all have a good diet. No worries about that... ;)

You've got some nice looking doublesword japan blues in there...
 

B3TT45

Well, I do have to mention that most of my tanks are open tanks. So, no lids. And those that I've put a glass plate on, do have a gap as well. So, gasses can evaporate. I hardly have jumping fish till almost none.
But if you're having trouble with jumping fish, a lid is advisable. Maybe something wrong with some parameters that they've got the urge to jump?
Well as I mentioned on my update post, the parameters are perfect (0, 0, 5) and there is a lid. The endler jumped out of an impossibly small gap. No clue why it would jump
 

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