"electric Blue X Gold" Ram Cichlids, Part 1

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Kasshan

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This a pic of the parents I took back in may. 1 survivor from that spawn picture below. My fry numbers were always going to low due to over crowding, despite not doing any water changes. For me, I am dubious about doing water changes when then is no "measurable need" and its relationship to fry survival numbers in my care is difficult to observe, since predation from older siblings was the most dominant factor. I had to remove the dominant older siblings to the 23g nat geo, because they kept eating the much younger bite-sized younger siblings. I also have other smaller juvies from June and July, however, August was all eaten/cannibalized prompting me to finally separate them from the parents. Sept yielded me two spawns one in the beginning and one just hatched last night since I removed the older siblings, several dozen 1month fry hangout with mom and browse the Java Moss. Dad takes care of the wrigglers.
This guy here pictured is 4months old, at least 2 inches. Perhaps in another month he will get more definition.
 

KinsKicks

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They look beautiful! Honestly, they look like the best of both worlds and look much prettier Imo than the regular or gold or the regular blue
 

Vishaquatics

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Wow! That is one of the most insane rams I have ever seen. I'm sure you could make a killing off of them if you sold them even in small quantities.
 

chromedome52

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There are lines available with gold and EB in them on Aquabid. That said, the above is an excellent specimen. The genetics start to get a bit complicated, but I'd breed it with an EB to get more blue first in the F2. Half of the fry will have the gold background, and selecting those will give you some F3 that are 100% gold and 100% EB genetically.
 

Mcasella

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Most fish fry/juvies produce a hormone that inhibits growth for other fry/juvies, which is why you may be seeing really large siblings and really small siblings - water changes remove this hormone and keep the playing field a little more even.
Stunning fish either way!
 
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Kasshan

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Mcasella said:
Most fish fry/juvies produce a hormone that inhibits growth for other fry/juvies, which is why you may be seeing really large siblings and really small siblings - water changes remove this hormone and keep the playing field a little more even.
Stunning fish either way!
reference please about the hormones. or is this anecdotal? I'm always dubious about these claims about hormones. even if hormones were a factor, there are more important variables to consider. if I changed my water then my fish wouldn't spawn anymore and id kill any existing older fry thru repeated shock if wasn't meticulous about the water I replaced it with. the pH of the tank is balanced perfectly at 5.5 pH, water params are NH3 =0, NO3- =0, NO2- = 0. A water change for me would disrupt the balance. im against expensive nitpicky meddling since these are display tanks, not intended for breeding, regular monthly breeding is just a consequence.
plus the point of this tank is to "bunk" the hormone problem you are describing. so far it is "bunking"it, cuz people told me my fish wont breed in my water. this tank has Never had a waterchange since it was setup 2 yrs ago.

I think the simpler answer is that he ate them, since the spawn tank is a 10 gallon. The fry (from may to july) sizes balanced out when I put them in a planted grow-up tank (23g). I have a total of 6 fry [1 from may, 2 from june, and 3 from july] and fed them live tubifex for the majority of their lives.

chromedome52 said:
There are lines available with gold and EB in them on Aquabid. That said, the above is an excellent specimen. The genetics start to get a bit complicated, but I'd breed it with an EB to get more blue first in the F2. Half of the fry will have the gold background, and selecting those will give you some F3 that are 100% gold and 100% EB genetically.
yes this was intention. I want that rich orangey gold on the face, and EB for the body. ive been reading how the EB gene covers the Gold due the layering of scales and gene expression.

Koiman said:
Wow! That is one of the most insane rams I have ever seen. I'm sure you could make a killing off of them if you sold them even in small quantities.
Really? I didn't think he was that great, I was disappointed since I was hoping for more EB gene expression. I'm doing this more for fun and experience at the moment; these are all display tanks. I'm not really doing it for the money
 

Mcasella

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Fish will breed, it is what they do as long as you have male and female.


There are several forums discussing this as well.
 
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Kasshan

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I see, so anecdotal then.

I've read thru those discussions, that reference doesn't apply; I've safely dismissed that particular "hormone argument" as a serious concern a long time ago. The study involves trout and other commercially raised salmonids in crowded breeding pens that likely are bare bottom. One should not compare massive fish farms to a small carefully maintained hobby tank, big difference.

Many people have drawn the same false conclusion from that hormone study. Canabalism/predation is still the primary variable in this case. My numbers go up when I remove the big siblings, not because of hormones, but because they are no longer getting eaten.
 

Mcasella

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Kasshan said:
I see, so anecdotal then.

I've read thru those discussions, that reference doesn't apply; I've safely dismissed that particular "hormone argument" as a serious concern a long time ago. The study involves trout and other commercially raised salmonids in crowded breeding pens that likely are bare bottom. One should not compare massive fish farms to a small carefully maintained hobby tank, big difference.

Many people have drawn the same false conclusion from that hormone study. Canabalism/predation is still the primary variable in this case. My numbers go up when I remove the big siblings, not because of hormones, but because they are no longer getting eaten.
Never said they weren't getting eaten, simply that number of fry prevented everyone from growing as quickly which led to a smaller / younger fry being cannibalized.
 

chromedome52

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You have small tanks with large numbers of fish. The fish will reduce their own population to fit, whether by GIS or just straight out bullying. There are also other waste chemicals in the water, plants only handle the nitrogenous waste. Water changes are required for healthy growth of young fish. The fresh water brings in minerals that the fish need, and also that the plants need, to process the nitrogenous wastes.

I can raise up over 90% of a spawn like the one in your first photo above (and have done so), even in a relatively undersized tank, by doing frequent water changes. The best breeders I know do massive water changes. If you genuinely want to raise a reasonable number, water changes are going to be necessary. Otherwise you are going to continue getting minimal or no survival from your fry. Extra water changes also allow heavier feeding, giving the fry the nutrients they need to grow. If they don't get enough food, the big ones will eat the small ones.
 
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Kasshan

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I physically remove Malaysian trumpet snails, that's where the other organic wastes that duckweed and java moss cant remove go and why my bioloads can so be so high, I feed generously; dry foods and live tubifex and swarms of daphnia. my fry rate seems to have shot up again after removal of the other larger siblings, so theoretically their hormones would be present, but numbers/data suggests that water changes are irrelevant in this case. ive got about 3 dozen 1 month 1/4'' fry, plus a whole new spawn that match earlier recorded data from may, june, and july. I'm just not seeing what you guys are saying from the data I'm collecting, water changes still seem unnecessary. we will see what the data says. if ive got at least 2 dozen half inchers at the end of October then ill know with data, since I don't trust lore. my data numbers from May June July seem to correlate with my hypothesis so far. ill have real solid data after a whole year has passed.


keep in mind these are display tanks where the substrate shouldn't be severely disturbed with overzealous deep "cleaning". plus I'm collecting data
 

Dave125g

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I've heard your arguments concerning water changes in the past. I still disagree. That's all I'm gonna say on that. As far as fry growth... I over feed my fry tanks. That way I know all are eating even the smaller and slower ones. I do large percentage water changes twice weekly to pull up the leftovers before they go bad. A large water change in my community tanks also triggers spawning in the majority of my fish. I wish you the best of luck. I love rams.
 
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Kasshan

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I realize. You can disagree, but why? Do you not trust the data, the method, or me, or something else perhaps. In science giving reasons why always makes for a better argument in discussion. But I trust data not lore, so far the data suggests that with this setup a water change would be a waste of my time and detrimental to the established biome, given my other cleaning methods I don't worry about the concerns folks lob at me. Busy work doesn't suit me. Plus it is working experiment designed to challenge the rote maintenance norms. The rams spawn like clockwork on a monthly cycle so a water change doesn't seem like a consistent variable to induce spawning, since mine spawn without. Correlation is not causation, as any good scientist knows.
When you vacuum extra food it would be useless for me, since the snails clean everything in 1 hour anyhow.

I have read that many people complain a lot about rams being difficult to bred but for me it is easy peesy cake.
 

chromedome52

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You've only got 36 fry remaining from a spawn of well over a hundred after only one month. I'll bet that more than half of those 36 will be dead before two months unless you remove some. It took you less than 4 months to lose all but one. Your data will repeat: failure to have a significant percentage of the spawn survive. Why are your fry still dying off if you've removed the bigger ones? Could be a lack of fresh water, as the top breeders in this country do massive water changes on a frequent schedule, and raise large batches of young.

Sorry, but data has to be correctly interpreted to be useful. You're looking at your data incorrectly.
 
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Kasshan

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*sigh* I'm sorry that you are sorry.
its not breeding tank, per say, it is a consequence. it is 10 gallon display tank after all. I just don't see what you guys are saying. plus ive read a study that indicates that many types of soil bacteria consume free floating hormones with hours to a day, the study was in direct response to the "hormones in the river water myth".

I only counted that many fry, theres likely more, I can only assume, since there are so many crevices created by the slate. my yield is much higher than it was in june versus now because I wasnt handpicking out larger fry. it's a 10 gallon display tank with mud,dirt, cellulose based chaff that add tannins, not meant for commercial mass breeding. the data is graphed, and I can only explain so well with written word. I sit next to the thing everyday since it is butted up against the dining room table. predation is the primary variable right now, I can only report what I observe: remove the larger fry and smaller fry will survive. refusing to see to data is not an eye of the beholder situation, I take it very seriously. ive been known to admit when I'm wrong, in fact I love it when I'm wrong, cuz then I stand to learn something new, so don't insult me when the basis of my hypothesis has been stubbornly ignored. When the data supports the water change paradigm that is constantly being parroted, ill have to rework the theory. so far nothing yall have said is new to me. show me a hormone study in a mud/planted hobby tank like mine and then let us talk. don't compare my stuff to bare bottom breeder tanks, where the problems you list are real concerns for pro breeders.

remember the goal of a water change is to remove inorganic solids, and organic waste. removing snails and trimming plants serves the same purpose. not a long logical leap to make. seems my working hypothesis jives more than you all's for the moment, when I changes ill happily admit my conclusion, whether it supports or refutes based on data. plus I'm only about 4 months into collecting data[7 data points], ill need at least 30 data points before I'm satisfied. all variables are being carefully controlled and monitored.

I trust data not lore
 

KingCynosure

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I'm gonna skip the argument/discussion lol I just wanna say that I'm completely in love with that fish! I think it's a perfect combo really, I like how it looks like the blue is just an accent to the gold, but it has enough of it in there to stand out. I'd be so happy if I bred one to look like that!
 
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Kasshan

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The young male pictured is named Spartacus. Thank you for your appreciation of his aesthetic value. Looking forward to sharing pics next month.
 

Discusluv

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Glad to hear your collecting data and staying the course..
I will not be argumentative tonight... but, cordial--
Pretty fish.
 
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thank you, but
chromedome52 said:
You've only got 36 fry remaining from a spawn of well over a hundred after only one month. I'll bet that more than half of those 36 will be dead before two months unless you remove some. It took you less than 4 months to lose all but one. Your data will repeat: failure to have a significant percentage of the spawn survive. Why are your fry still dying off if you've removed the bigger ones? Could be a lack of fresh water, as the top breeders in this country do massive water changes on a frequent schedule, and raise large batches of young.

Sorry, but data has to be correctly interpreted to be useful. You're looking at your data incorrectly.
drawing such strong conclusions with incomplete data, personal opinions/assumptions, and betting against results is in poor scientific taste...but Ill be sure to add your hypothesis to my analysis if you can put it in a "if, then, because" statement please, I would appreciate that. you are using a common logical fallacy many people make of false equivalence to refute my method if that was your goal. either way, regardless, I forgive you for the lapse in ethical discourse. also top breeders use barebottom tank, I don't think a 10 gallon would be practical.
 

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I'd ditch the 10 and transfer your pair to a 50 gallon planted where size won't be an issue
 
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