Ei+ On A Tanks Initial Stage - Equilibrium Questions - 2x Ada 60p's

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KeeperOfASilentWorld

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Dear Experienced Planted Tank Keepers,

After reading Tom Barr's articles twice with a highlighter in my hand, he ( The Science ) has won me over Takashi Amano ( The Design and Marketing )

I successfully gained good experience on a 114 Litre Iwagumi tank ( 200+ umol at substrate, Fluval 2.0 LED’s ), full ADA substrate system, ADA dosed, HC planted and I now feel ready to start up a fully planted tank.

I am going to be setting up two ADA 60P’s, heavily planted, daily EI+ dosing, one with a concave and one with a convex layout using driftwood. Lighting will be around 200 umol at the substrate level ( 90 at shaded areas between driftwood and glass ) on one and around 100 umol ( 40 at shaded areas under and around driftwood ) on the other. I am aiming to gain experience on both systems which will be greatly different in dynamics.

After week 1, fauna will be 60 Caridina Multidentata’s and 60 Neocaridina Bloody Mary’s during the first 12 weeks. 30 Caridina Multidentata’s will be removed from each system around week 8-12. Trigonostima Espei's and Boraras Brigittae's will be added after week 12.

%100 RO with Seachem Alkaline Buffer and Equilibrium. 4 KH, 6 GH, with a full ADA substrate system.

TANK:
2x ADA 60P

LIGHTING:
2x Chihiros A601 Plus ( Concave Layout )
2x Chihiros A601 ( Convex Layout )

FILTER:
Eheim Classical 350 ( 2215 )
2.5 Litres Seachem Matrix ( 1 Litre from an established setup )
1 Litre Seachem Matrix Carbon
500 ml Seachem Purigen
Jardli Lily Pipes - Surface skimmer intake
Hydor Inline Heater 200W

SUBSTRATE:
ADA Amazonia Powder Type
ADA Amazonia Regular Type
ADA Power Sand S
Bacter 100
Clear Super
Tourmaline BC

WATER COLUMN :
JBL ProScape N
JBL ProScape P
JBL ProScape K
JBL ProScape Fe + Traces
JBL ProScape NPK
ADA Green Bacter - Daily for 14 days, then with WC
ADA Green Gain - Weekly
ADA Python Git - Weekly
ADA ECA ???
Seachem Prime
Seachem Stability - Daily for 14 days, then with WC
Prodibio Biodigest - First day only
Seachem Equilibrium
Seachem Alkaline Buffer

Do!Aqua Music Glass 20mm CO2 Diffusor ( CO2 at 35 ppm ) ( will be shutting off during lights off )
ADA Bubble Counter
Elos Regulator
Twinstar M5
Eheim Air Pump w/ADA Pollen Glass Large 20mm ( during lights off )

DAILY DOSING PLAN : ( I prefer to use branded fertilizers for ease )

Week 1
%50 WC daily
NO3 10 ppm
PO4 0.2 ppm
K 5.5 ppm
Fe+Traces 0.1 ppm, resulting in a 0.5 ppm dose of Mg

Week 2 - Introduce 60 Caridina Multidentata’s
%50 WC daily

Week 3
%50 WC every 2 days
NO3 5 ppm ( or more depending on tests )
PO4 0.5 ppm

Week 4
%50 WC every 3 days
Replace Carbon with regular Matrix, Replace Purigen with 250 ml new Purigen. ( 3.75L Matrix, 0.25L Purigen )

Week 5 - Introduce 60 Neocaridina Bloody Mary’s
%50 WC every 7 days

Week 6 - Increase daily PO4 dose to 0.6ppm or more if needed !

Please do comment on any detail, brand, amount about my daily dosing plan and/or my equipment. I am eager to improve my abilities.


QUESTIONS :

MAIN QUESTION 1: Should I be dosing PO4 and Fe+ from day one? Does the information about PO4 and Fe not being sources of a bloom also apply for the initial stage? I accounted for the PO4 leaching from the Matrix Carbon and Amazonia. Should I increase the initial dose of 0.2 ppm PO4 to a 0.5ppm from day 1 under the comfort of my daily water changes?

MAIN QUESTION 2: Seachem Equilibrium adds 0.44 Fe, 92 K2O, 78 K, 9.64 Mg, 32.24 Ca, 0.24 Mn to the water at a GH of 6. Is this too much? Would a magnesium surplus ( will be dosing 0.5 ppm daily in addition ) cause K blockage under these concentrations? Would the high Fe concentration cause any problem on the systems initial stage? Should I mix 3 GH Equilibrium with 3 GH Salty Shrimp? Comments on Salty Shrimp will be appreciated, it’s ingredients aren’t listed. Any recommendations for a branded GH product?

Q3: Would using %100 RO cause any form of a Cl deficiency? Any information on how RO systems work in terms of Cl? Tap water is not an option due to Milano’s incomprehensible tap water.

Q4: The JBL Proscape Fe+Traces is only lean in Cu 0.002 ppm relative to Tropica 0.009 ppm and AquaRebel 0.006 ppm at 0.1 ppm Fe. All other variables are around the same with all three products. Would a daily value of 0.002 ppm result in a deficiency?

Q5: Is aeration during lights off necessary considering Twinstar M5 diffuses a great deal of oxygen? Will Twinstar M5 substitute for a full aeration by the use of an air pump ( 50 l/h ) considering the skimmer would also be supplying oxygen for the bacteria? I do not want the oxygen levels to decline during lights off. Would Twinstar alone be sufficient?

Q6: Is it possible to introduce the Bloody Mary’s sooner? Would they get affected by the water changes? Around 2-4 KH in tank due to Amazonia’s initial days, 6-8 KH new water. ( See below )

Q7: Should I aim for a higher KH of 8 for the new water in order to keep the tanks KH at or around 4 and then gradually adjust to keep KH at 4 over time?


PLANT LIST :
Rotala ‘Green’
Rotala Rotundifolia
Rotala Wallichii
Rotala ‘Vietnam’ Hra

Hottonia Palustris
Rotala Indica ‘Bonsai’
Ludwigia Palustris
Micranthemum Umbrosum
Ranunculus Inundatus
Hydrocotyle Tripartita

Glossostigma Elatinoides

Taxiphyllum Barbieri ??? ( Any moss recommendations? I will be covering all driftwood. Aiming for a no visible wood look. Using ADA Moss Cotton. )
Bolbitis Heudelotii
Microsorum Trident
Anubias ‘Petite’
Bucephalandra ‘Wavy Green’


Thank you for taking the time to read through my long post.

Happy Fish Keeping
 
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Jocelyn Adelman

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Question 1 yes I would increase. With your monitoring abilities it will be easy to tell if you need to back down... I would rather dose then depend on the proper amounts leaching.... on that note I tend to do a lighter dose first week, this is debatable though, Barr does full from beginning... I usually give a few days to account for initial acclimation shock... however, even with lighter dosing I would bump up the ratio.
2 never heard of salty shrimp. Equilibrium should be fine.
3 r/o is fine with equilibrium/alkaline buffer
4 not familiar with jbl, CSM+B is what I use and has a much higher cu of .09 (higher fe as well). Would assume you can get the plantex in Italy.
csm+b nutrient content - The Planted Tank Forum
All that being said, some plants and many inverts are sensitive to too much copper, usually don't hear often of defieiciencies (though not impossible).
5 the twinstar and surface skimmer should be fine
6 my bloody Mary's are next to invincible... too bad you're not in the us or I'd be happy to supply them for you. I add mine within 2 weeks, depending on the tank... but I use ecocomplete vs Amazonia, not sure how the substrate will effect them... (literally invincible I have some in a bin in a bathtub... was rescaling and removed some old wood into the water to keep it soaking, have since been sidetracked on starting another, been three months with no light, no filter, no food, no heater and there's a thriving colony. Conversely, I have some in another bin on a windowsill with some extra plants... gets ferts, excel, temp goes low at night, high during mid day... thriving in there as well. Not to say they don't have SOME acclimation issues as all shrimp do, but they are pretty hardy here in the US)
7 up to you... consistency is always better. 4 to 6 should be fine, but not above 8.

Mosses I prefer weeping or xmas for covering, for accents flame or peacock. Love love love fissidens. Be careful with the trident, it can get big. There are other varieties of smaller scale javas if you want that look...

Oh, and yes, pigs are still flying


Edit for tagging
@-Mak- @Silister Trench @ashenwelt
 
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KeeperOfASilentWorld

KeeperOfASilentWorld

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Question 1 yes I would increase. With your monitoring abilities it will be easy to tell if you need to back down... I would rather dose then depend on the proper amounts leaching.... on that note I tend to do a lighter dose first week, this is debatable though, Barr does full from beginning... I usually give a few days to account for initial acclimation shock... however, even with lighter dosing I would bump up the ratio.
2 never heard of salty shrimp. Equilibrium should be fine.
3 r/o is fine with equilibrium/alkaline buffer
4 not familiar with jbl, CSM+B is what I use and has a much higher cu of .09 (higher fe as well). Would assume you can get the plantex in Italy.
csm+b nutrient content - The Planted Tank Forum
All that being said, some plants and many inverts are sensitive to too much copper, usually don't hear often of defieiciencies (though not impossible).
5 the twinstar and surface skimmer should be fine
6 my bloody Mary's are next to invincible... too bad you're not in the us or I'd be happy to supply them for you. I add mine within 2 weeks, depending on the tank... but I use ecocomplete vs Amazonia, not sure how the substrate will effect them... (literally invincible I have some in a bin in a bathtub... was rescaling and removed some old wood into the water to keep it soaking, have since been sidetracked on starting another, been three months with no light, no filter, no food, no heater and there's a thriving colony. Conversely, I have some in another bin on a windowsill with some extra plants... gets ferts, excel, temp goes low at night, high during mid day... thriving in there as well. Not to say they don't have SOME acclimation issues as all shrimp do, but they are pretty hardy here in the US)
7 up to you... consistency is always better. 4 to 6 should be fine, but not above 8.

Mosses I prefer weeping or xmas for covering, for accents flame or peacock. Love love love fissidens. Be careful with the trident, it can get big. There are other varieties of smaller scale javas if you want that look...

Oh, and yes, pigs are still flying


Edit for tagging
@-Mak- @Silister Trench @ashenwelt
Thank you for addressing all of my questions

I looked everywhere but couldn't find Tom Barr's take on EI during the initial stage but if he goes full on, I will too I will start with a daily 0.6 ppm PO4 and increase as needed. What do you think?

I do have access to CSM+B but I don't prefer it because of it's lean traces. I think it was meant for over 0.5 ppm Fe doses but even then they are a bit lean in relation to the plant uptake rates. It's Cu value is 0.001ppm at 0.1ppm Fe. Mg is at 0.021, Mn 0.029, Zn 0.006, Mo 0.001, B 0.012.
The "%" values in the link you mentioned are for mass percentage of the product itself. The values I am mentioning are for water column concentrations of dosing. In order to convert, multiply the "%" number in the form of x/100 with how much of the product you put in to the water in milligrams (mg ) and then divide that number by your tanks water volume ( L ) to reach mg/L = ppm.

I would die to have access to your Bloody Mary's !!! I get my shrimp online, shipped from Germany to my house and the Germany shrimp market is an absolute chaos. I am nervous I might get Orange's instead of Bloody Mary's and get an ooppss response

The Amazonia brings down KH around 4 degrees on it's initial stage. When I supply the new water with 6 KH I would probably have around 2 KH in the tank. I was planing on supplying the new water with 8 KH aiming for a 4 KH in my tank and as the Amazonia wears off it's initial stage I will adjust the new waters KH down to 7-6-5-4 respectively in order to keep the tanks KH 4 at all times. What do you think? Would a KH of 8 cause stress for the plants?

I originally was going for the weeping moss but had too many feedbacks about it being unable to attach. What are your experiences with it? I felt that xmas moss could look a bit out of place if I cover all wood with it but I have no experience with moss. What do you think about xmas?

I also fell in love with fissidens. I will definitely be using it in the future but I fear if I use it all over the tank some parts wouldn't do so well in and around the driftwood. I feel that it is better to use it in combination with others where as in these setups I will probably aim for only one type of moss for each setup.

Can you explain a little more about the Trident. What are some other options?

Oh, and yes, pigs are flying high !

Thank you for your time and help
 

Jocelyn Adelman

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Why wait to fertilize a newly set up tank? - Fertilizing - Aquatic Plant Central
Other smaller javas

I got some trident for a scape, it was about 16 inches high. Since has never grown dense, a lot of spacing between leaves. Turns out there is also a mini. Also have ordered some other mini varieties from a place in Europe, I will look into where I got it from tomorrow. For now browse the other types available at liquid creations (I prefer the narrow k to trident)
weeping attached easily for me... have some in places I don't want when it self attached... fissidens is a pain to get settled, but once it does it does fairly well in all locations... definitely can get a bushy look...

Will try to get you some pictures if I remember tomorrow, plus the names of two plant retailers in europe that I imported from...

Two sizes of trident... there are bigger ones like mine as well


Mini needle Java, from place in Germany... have ordered from them before with success


Their site
https://www.aquamoos.de/
 
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KeeperOfASilentWorld

KeeperOfASilentWorld

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Plant brain is Tom Barr
Why wait to fertilize a newly set up tank? - Fertilizing - Aquatic Plant Central
Other smaller javas

I got some trident for a scape, it was about 16 inches high. Since has never grown dense, a lot of spacing between leaves. Turns out there is also a mini. Also have ordered some other mini varieties from a place in Europe, I will look into where I got it from tomorrow. For now browse the other types available at liquid creations (I prefer the narrow k to trident)
weeping attached easily for me... have some in places I don't want when it self attached... fissidens is a pain to get settled, but once it does it does fairly well in all locations... definitely can get a bushy look...

Will try to get you some pictures if I remember tomorrow, plus the names of two plant retailers in europe that I imported from...

Two sizes of trident... there are bigger ones like mine as well
Thank you for providing Tom Barr's read. I am much more confident now. I was worried about the first two weeks but it is crystal clear that I will be dosing PO4 to the limit now

How does one trim the Trident? Is it possible to keep it short? I find the Narrow variation to be too large in appearance because of it's relatively wider leaf size. The Mini-Leaf looks awesome

What do you think about Christmas moss?
 

Jocelyn Adelman

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Needle leaf is thinner and shorter then narrow, also pretty easy to obtain these days. Trimmin the trident... no, not really. I've cut the rhizome and planted it on top of each other to increase density, but as for leaf size it is what it is. I have the mini leaf and love it, as well as the durin besar (love javas).

Xmas moss would work better then Java for neatness... but might be overpowering. Weeping is softer looking. Below some pictures of different mosses
Aquatic Moss. How to grow Aquatic Moss. Info on Java Moss, Christmas Moss, Taiwan Moss, Peacock Moss, Stringy Moss
 
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