Effect of plants on nitrate levels, general cycling questions

Hello,

I've been cycling my 55 gallon tank since the beginning of March. I moved previously used filter media over, but I didn't fully understand the nitrogen cycle at the time, so that tank wasn't properly cycled. When I finally got a test kit and tested the water, the parameters were 0,0,0, so I don't think it was actually cycled.

I found out recently that my tap water has 0.25 ppm ammonia in it. As per members' suggestions, I stopped water changes. I've been testing the water daily, and dosing Prime daily for the full volume of the tank.

Today was the lowest the ammonia has ever been! Just the tiniest trace of green. However, seeing as I haven't done any water changes in awhile, I'm sort of surprised how low the nitrates are. I know that plants are supposed to keep nitrates low, but in the 55 gallon tank, I only have some hornwort; in a 10 gallon (which I'm also cycling) there aren't any plants! Yet when I tested just now, nitrates were 5-10ppm for both tanks, a bit less for the 55 gallon. In the 55 gallon, there is a BN pleco and three platys; in the 10 gallon there is a male betta.

Is it possible the tank isn't actually cycling? Please don't say that I do shake the snot out of the second nitrate bottle (using the API freshwater master test kit, by the way); I actually shake all the bottles really well, just in case. But I'm confused as to how there could be so little nitrates when I haven't done water changes in ages, at least a couple weeks.

Any information or advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

Plants will take in the nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) as part of their plant food. While this can reduce the nitrogen load on a tank, a few plants would not make all that much of a difference. If it were heavily planted, and if the plants were growing and appeared healthy, your tank could be cycled.

What is your pH, GH and KH levels? These 3 parameters will be the clue as to whether your tank is actually cycled and the plants are consuming the nitrate; or it something else is going on.

Also, as you have fish, I would go back to doing weekly water changes, minimum. There is much more to water chemistry than the handful of levels we monitor. As you know you have ammonia in your tap, just use extra Prime or other detoxing agent. Your tank's cycle should be able to process that little bit of ammonia in 24 hours.

 

What is your pH, GH and KH levels? These 3 parameters will be the clue as to whether your tank is actually cycled and the plants are consuming the nitrate; or it something else is going on.

This is new for me... Always good to learn something new. What do you want your pH, GH, and KH levels to be with a planted tank that is cycled?

 

KH and GH should be at 4 degrees/drops or higher. pH above 6.0 degrees.

Many times an unclcyed tank will bind the carbonate (KH) which causes the pH to crash. This in turn puts the bacteria into dormancy and stalls out the cycle.

If the KH and GH are both above 4 degrees/drops and if the pH is above 6.0 degrees, knowing the OP has plants would indicate the tank is truly cycled.

 

I used to be testing the pH, but I didn't know there were things that would cause it to change, so I stopped testing it. It was always 8.2, until I added some driftwood, which caused it to drop to 8.0. I'll be sure to test that today, and pick up a kH/GH test kit. Thanks for the information!

Edit: I tested the pH for both the 55 gallon and 10 gallon tanks; oddly enough the 10 gallon's pH was slightly lower at 7.8 (even though it doesn't have driftwood), and the 55 gallon was at about 7.9 (I know the test doesn't test for odd-decimal pHs, but it seems like it's between 7.8 and 8.0 )

I will pick up a kH/Gh test kit this afternoon. Unfortunately I'm not sure I'll be able to find the drop-style; I think I've only seen the strips thus far.

 

I purchased the API GH/KH liquid test kit. The KH is 5 or 6 degrees (to be honest I lost count half way through, but it's definitely 5 or 6) and GH is 10 degrees. Is it bad if it's too high? Do I need to do anything to correct this? Are there any fish that don't do well in such an environment?

 

Plants will take in the nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) as part of their plant food. While this can reduce the nitrogen load on a tank, a few plants would not make all that much of a difference. If it were heavily planted, and if the plants were growing and appeared healthy, your tank could be cycled.

What is your pH, GH and KH levels? These 3 parameters will be the clue as to whether your tank is actually cycled and the plants are consuming the nitrate; or it something else is going on.

Also, as you have fish, I would go back to doing weekly water changes, minimum. There is much more to water chemistry than the handful of levels we monitor. As you know you have ammonia in your tap, just use extra Prime or other detoxing agent. Your tank's cycle should be able to process that little bit of ammonia in 24 hours.

It was me that suggested she hold off on water changes, not weekly but the daily changes she was doing, with the ammonia in her tap, the daily changes were stalling the tail end of her cycle. I did tell her the ammonia from the weekly changes would eventually get to a piont where it would cycle out in 24hrs. We where just trying to get that last bit of ammonia to cycle out.

 

Yup. I've been diligently testing every day (not yet for today, just got home) and the ammonia has done nothing but drop. The strange thing is how low the nitrates are, too.

I guess this is sort of related (related enough to hopefully not start a new thread), but I just got a snail. Does KH/GH affect snails specifically, or is that just calcium? How can I test for calcium? I've heard of putting cuttlebone in the filter housing, does that raise calcium? I know it's important for shell growth.

 

Sounds like there may have been a misunderstanding regarding water changes. While I can understand stopping the daily water changes, I believe weekly water changes are necessary to keep a tank healthy.

With your current KH and GH readings, I'd say your tank has completely cycled. And has enough calcium for your snail. GH measures calcium and magnesium, among other compounds. So long at the level stays above 4 drops you are find. If ever it drops, you can try cuttlebone or Epsom Salts (magnesium) or Calcium Sulfate.

 

Excellent! Thank you very much. Now I can get a few more female platys, so I have the proper ratio.

 

You are welcome!

Just stock very slowly. With ammonia in your water new additions will most likely lead to minI cycles.

 

Hello,

I've been cycling my 55 gallon tank since the beginning of March. I moved previously used filter media over, but I didn't fully understand the nitrogen cycle at the time, so that tank wasn't properly cycled. When I finally got a test kit and tested the water, the parameters were 0,0,0, so I don't think it was actually cycled.

I found out recently that my tap water has 0.25 ppm ammonia in it. As per members' suggestions, I stopped water changes. I've been testing the water daily, and dosing Prime daily for the full volume of the tank.

Today was the lowest the ammonia has ever been! Just the tiniest trace of green. However, seeing as I haven't done any water changes in awhile, I'm sort of surprised how low the nitrates are. I know that plants are supposed to keep nitrates low, but in the 55 gallon tank, I only have some hornwort; in a 10 gallon (which I'm also cycling) there aren't any plants! Yet when I tested just now, nitrates were 5-10ppm for both tanks, a bit less for the 55 gallon. In the 55 gallon, there is a BN pleco and three platys; in the 10 gallon there is a male betta.

Is it possible the tank isn't actually cycling? Please don't say that I do shake the snot out of the second nitrate bottle (using the API freshwater master test kit, by the way); I actually shake all the bottles really well, just in case. But I'm confused as to how there could be so little nitrates when I haven't done water changes in ages, at least a couple weeks.

Any information or advice would be greatly appreciated!

Maybe I'm a bit confused but kinezumi89 indicates still having levels of ammonia and indicates "Today was the lowest the ammonia has ever been! Just the tiniest trace of green." This does not indicate to me a fully cycled tank.

Kinezumi, you mention ammonia numbers and nitrate numbers but what are your nitrite numbers currently?

I agree with catsma to resume weekly water changes. What do you have for filtration? Do you have a good bio media for the bacteria to colonize or are you using a filter that just contains a filter cartridge with poly fiber and activated carbon?

Also, your 55 gallon tank info indicates you currently have two fish in it, a betta and a pleco, with other fish in the plans. If this is correct, you won't see a lot of nitrates develop because the bioload is very low for the size of tank you have. If you have ammonia levels after 2 weeks of no water changes in this large of a tank with 2 occupants it further leads me to believe this tank is not cycled. Biological bacteria should have no problem keeping up with the amount of ammonia they produce and you should be having 0 ammonia present except immediately after a water change being as your tap water has ammonia present in it.

I'm hoping you can clear up my confusion if I'm misunderstanding things.

 

Last night the tube had just the tiniest trace of green; I am fairly certain that the next time I test (which will end up being tomorrow morning) it should be at zero. My nitrites are zero, nitrates have been between 5 and 20ish, but never got higher because I would change the water.

I have a HOB TetraTec filter rated for 60 gallons (I don't remember the exact model number).

Oops, I guess I need to update that! I moved the betta back into his 10 gallon tank, and put three platys in the 55.

I had been doing daily water changes using water with 0.25 ammonia, which is why it has taken so long to cycle. To be honest, I don't remember exactly when I stopped the daily water changes; I can try looking for the thread in which LexI suggested I change my regimen.

Also, while I technically put a used filter in the housing to seed the tank, I did not understand the nitrogen cycle when I started up the tank from which the filter media came; I had tested the water as being 0,0,0 and thought "hooray! Looks good to me!" So I don't think it was actually cycled at all. Therefore, I probably didn't actually effectively seed the tank.

 

Ok, thank you kinezumI for shedding a little extra light on it for me. If your tank does soon test 0 ammonia, then you know the tank is cycled but if it is still showing even a trace of ammonia then your beneficial bacteria aren't strong enough to keep up with the bioload you currently have and that means your tank still isn't fully cycled. IF you do determine tomorrow the ammonia is now at 0, you should really wait at least another 2 weeks before you introduce new fish to give the bacteria time to get stronger. Adding fish immediately after you receive 0 ammonia results will almost definitely overwhelm your bacteria colony and you will get levels of ammonia and possibly nitrites again. Patience pays off in this hobby.

 

No problem! I was afraid you'd say that XD It's not that I'm incredibly impatient to add fish (well, maybe a little bit ) but I've had a bit of an issue with aggression in my platys. I stupidly bought them without knowing how to tell the genders apart, and got the only bad combination of three - one female and two males. I tried dividing them in the quarantine tank, but no matter which side I put one of the males on, he got bullied. So I put the betta back in the 10 gallon and put the platys in the 55. I know that three platys does not equal one betta bioload-wise, but I didn't want to stress them too much and have them get sick. (This was before I knew about the ammonia in the tapwater.) I've been dosing Prime every day (definitely didn't think I'd go through the bottle so quickly). Anyway, the aggression is less in the 55 gallon, but I think things would calm down if I could add three more females (I planned to have six platys total) so that it would be a 1 male : 2 female ratio.

I realized I forgot to talk about the filter media specifically. It is as you described, mesh bags with carbon in them. However, there are four of them, plus the filter (same kind) from the 10 gallon, plus two small sponge-pad-things that are from a different filter (missing parts, so I can't set it up). What would you call a good media? Is there anything I can replace the carbon-filled bags with, without having to purchase a new filter? I would like to upgrade to a canister-style one day, but until I have a steady job, it's not in the cards (Obviously I know not to remove the current media and replace with new media all at once.)

Thanks for your info!

 

You stopped the daily water changes on march 30th. So it has been 7 days. I will try to link the thread so everyone else knows what is going on. So if it is 0 tommorow, then you would want to do a weekly waterchange, which will more then likly send you back into a minI cycle. Just remeber what I said, keep testing and adding Prime everyday after the waterchange and count how many days it takes to drop to 0ppm again. Each week it should take less and less time to reach 0ppm, until it will get to the point
where it is gone within 24hrs, which will becovered by the prime added to the waterchange water.

 

It seems like it's been way longer than that! You know, the whole "the tank will be cycle when the ammonia drops to zero in 24 hours," I'm pretty sure you said that in the thread and I just forgot So much information to take in at once! No more platys yet, then. The good thing is the bullied male isn't hiding as much, and isn't clamping his fins as much. The female still hides a bit, but I see her out and swimming around too. Maybe she's just pregnant, who knows!

Thanks for everyone's information!

 

Could you take pics of your filter and media? I'm having problems finding out what this filter's cartridge is like.

Foam is a good mechanical media and also functions as a decent bio media as well. Foam shouldn't be replaced until it's disintegrating and starting to fall apart. Activated carbon should be changed monthly. Poly fiber can also just be rinsed and reused until it falls apart. Some cartridges have the activated carbon in behind poly fiber but it doesn't sound like yours is quite like this. When this is the case though, the activated carbon can be removed from the cartridge by slicing the poly open at the top and shaking and rinsing out the carbon. It can then be refilled with new rinsed activated carbon but some people just choose to not use activated carbon after it is removed. A media bag can be used to hold the carbon instead of refilling the cartridge too. If you do this and only rinse filter media instead of replacing it, you will save money and biological bacteria. Media only needs to be rinsed occasionally when it starts to get very dirty and impedes water flow.

Oooops, I got side tracked. Foam makes a decent bio media. My favorite kind of bio media are the ceramic rings, Biomax. These you can buy in media bags of different sizes, or you can buy a box of loose rings to fill your own media bags with (purchased separately or the foot of a new pair of nylons works well too). These little rings are very porous and offer beneficial bacteria lots of area to set up shop. Most HOB filters have some spare room in behind the filter cartridge and a media bag of biomax can be placed in that portion of the filter unit. The more bio media you can offer the bacteria, the better. It's one of the reasons canister filters are loved. They have a lot of room for bio media as well as mechanical and chemical. Bio media needs rinsing occasionally and virtually never needs to be replaced.

 

Here is your other thread

I am basing the last waterchange date on the fact that I gave you that advise on march 29th.

 

I didn't do a water change that day, but I think it had only been a few days since I had done one. I will definitely do one tomorrow! Er, later today.

toosie, here is a link to the type of filter cartridges I use. There are technically five in there, plus two sponge-type things, roughly 3"x2".

I actually have another filter that is missing parts, so I can't use it. But it does have those ceramic rings you're talking about (I think they're the same; they're sort of hexagonal-shaped). Would it be beneficial if I just pour some of those into the filter housing, to increase the surface area for the bacteria?

 

Well I tested the water...and there's still ammonia! Maybe even a little more than yesterday. Sigh. I don't know why it's taking so darn long. I'll do a water change/gravel vaccuming today, but I feel bad putting more ammonia in the tank when the bacteria can't even handle what's in there.

Maybe I'll put some of those ceramic rings in the filter housing, too.

 

I'm sorry to hear that your tank isn't actually cycled. I thought you had no measurable ammonia and was concerned with no nitrates.

When you do your water changes, double up on Prime if you haven't already. This will detox the small amount of ammonia in your tank and protect your fish.

You have a very good idea, adding bio-rings or other media, to your filter to provide more area to grow bacteria.

 

Well, the test tube was for the most part yellow, with only the tiniest hint of green. I thought for sure today it would read zero, unfortunately the ammonia was higher! I did water changes/gravel vacs for both tanks, and treated with Prime for the volume of the tank. I believe I have to wait until tomorrow to test for ammonia again, but I'm not exactly sure why, because from what I understand the test shouldn't be different. As I understand it, the Prime neutralizes the ammonia to ammonium, which is not toxic to fish, but still consumable by the bacteria. I thought that the test kit would still pick up on ammonium readings, hence why many people treat with Prime and then are still worried that their test kits detect ammonia. However, I've also heard that you should wait 24 hours after adding Prime to the tank to test, so I guess I'll wait to test to be on the safe side (unless I hear otherwise).

 

What kind of lighting are you looking at the test tube under? Try testing and going outside and see if the tube looks anydifferent. The ammonia going down is a good thing, its just going to take a bit with the tap water problem. You don't want to go to much over a week without a wa ter change , so even though it is a tiny bit of a step backwards, you should go ahead and do one. Then remeber to keep testing everyday and addin the prime, hopefully next week it will make it to zero before waterchange day. I know it seems like forever, but you are getting there I promise.
As far as the low nitates, I am going to geuss it is from having only 4 small fish in a 55gal tank.

 

I do actually have a question regarding reading the test tubes. I know you compare the tubes to the chart provided, but do you actually lay the tube against the paper? If you hold it up next to it, for example, against a white wall, it looks a lot lighter than if you actually make tube-to-paper contact. (This is kind of hard to explain.) If you hold the tube about a centimeter away from the white area between the columns, as compared to actually touching the tube to the paper, it looks about a shade lighter. How do I know which is accurate?

As for the lights, we have CFLs. I usually turn on plenty of lights. (I've tried taking pictures of the tubes to upload before, but the colors don't look right.)

 

If you have ceramic rings on hand, rinse them well and place them in a media bag or the foot of a pair of nylons and place them in the filter unit. If you just pour them in, they will become a pain when it's time to take out the filter cartridge and rinse it because they will want to fall into the area it sits in and you'd have to try to push them aside to get it in. I'm going to read your other thread LexI linked us to, but I may have an idea why you are still having some problems getting that final bit of ammonia taken care of. When I've finished reading the thread, I'll come back and tell you what I'm thinking. I just don't want to confuse you if I decide my suspicion is wrong.

 

I'll be sure to add some of the ceramic rings then. It's strange though, there are 5 (plus two small sponges) filter cartridges in there, and it STILL isn't enough surface area? Picky bacteria

I'll be looking forward to your thoughts!

 

Ok, a quick question first.... You have several media cartridges filtering this tank.... How many actual filters do you have running?

 

I do actually have a question regarding reading the test tubes. I know you compare the tubes to the chart provided, but do you actually lay the tube against the paper? If you hold it up next to it, for example, against a white wall, it looks a lot lighter than if you actually make tube-to-paper contact. (This is kind of hard to explain.) If you hold the tube about a centimeter away from the white area between the columns, as compared to actually touching the tube to the paper, it looks about a shade lighter. How do I know which is accurate?Y

As for the lights, we have CFLs. I usually turn on plenty of lights. (I've tried taking pictures of the tubes to upload before, but the colors don't look right.)

You should not hold the tube against the paper is what the directions say.

 

Lexi: Oops! I suppose the obvious answer would have been to reference the instructions. Thanks!

toosie: For the first month there were two filters - one from the 10 gallon tank, and the one for the 55 gallon tank. When I set up the 10 gallon to be a quarantine tank, I moved the 10-gallon-filter back over to the 10 gallon tank, so there is currently just the one filter.

 

Oh ok, that officially ruled out my suspicion then. So, if I have this right now... you have an HOB filter with two compartments and in these two compartments you have managed to fit 4 or 5 filter cartridges. Have you replaced any of these cartridges since your tank startup? I see this tank wasn't actually setup until March 4 2012. That means the tank has been running just over 4 weeks. As far as cycling a tank goes... that is not a very long time. A fish in cycle will typically take 6 to 8 weeks to complete or longer. Have you been testing the nitrites?

 

The filter cartridges really aren't packed in there. I'll take a picture for you. I have not replaced any cartridges. When I moved the 10-gallon filter back to the 10 gallon tank, I put the filter media in the 55 gallon filter housing. Maybe a week ago (or a bit less) I put in the small sponges.

I suppose 4 weeks really isn't a long time..but it feels like it's been an eternity! I stopped testing for nitrites soon after I started getting nitrate readings. At that point, I was testing every other day, so I assumed that the nitrites came and went, since I have never had a reading for nitrites at all. It is possible that I tested in the morning one day, skipped a day, and tested in the evening the next day, which is almost like three days (give or take a few hours...), so I have since stopped testing for nitrites. I will go test now and see if they are still at zero.

Edit: here are some pictures. You can see the entire assembly, the inside of the housing, and both the used cartridge and the "sponges," of which there are two. Also, the nitrite test revealed no nitrite in either tank.

 

Well, the test tube was for the most part yellow, with only the tiniest hint of green. I thought for sure today it would read zero, unfortunately the ammonia was higher! I did water changes/gravel vacs for both tanks, and treated with Prime for the volume of the tank. I believe I have to wait until tomorrow to test for ammonia again, but I'm not exactly sure why, because from what I understand the test shouldn't be different. As I understand it, the Prime neutralizes the ammonia to ammonium, which is not toxic to fish, but still consumable by the bacteria. I thought that the test kit would still pick up on ammonium readings, hence why many people treat with Prime and then are still worried that their test kits detect ammonia. However, I've also heard that you should wait 24 hours after adding Prime to the tank to test, so I guess I'll wait to test to be on the safe side (unless I hear otherwise).

You are correct in that Prime detoxes ammonia...as well as nitrites and nitrates. The reason you need to wait 24 hours to test is that Prime interferes with the API reagents and will lead to false test results.

As no nitrite test has been taken recently I recommend the next time you test to test for all 3 (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate). All these tests combined will help to determine what's going on with the cycle.

 

Catsma: she posted te results while you where typing.

 

Unfortunately, I forgot that Prime also detoxes nitrite/nitrate, so I'm guessing the results aren't accurate. I'll have to test again tomorrow.

 

Great pics!! Thank you. Everything looks very good. On top of that it sounds like you are doing things right and I think LexI has done a good job in the advice she has given you to date. The Prime will help protect the fish when you do the weekly water changes. If something happens ammonia in the tank increases above the level in the tap water, bringing it back down with a water change will be fine but with your light bioload that may not be a concern. With the added ceramic discs in the filter chamber you certainly will have plenty of surface area for the bacteria and it is just a case of waiting the cycle out.

If for some reason the tank still isn't completely cycled by the end of April and you are still having problems with low levels of ammonia, don't hesitate to let us know and we can help you make sure nothing is hindering your cycle. At this point in time though, everything pretty much seems to be the way it should be.

I realize most of your concern in this is because of aggression issues. It might be worth while to take the aggressor out of the tank and take it to your fish store to trade it for another.

Also, catsma has a good point. Testing for all three products of the nitrogen cycle will help us to know where your cycle is if you would like to keep us up to date on it, or in the event you do require further help.

 

OH I just realized. I read somewhere that the last few digits in the lot number on each bottle is the expiration date. Is that true? (For the API test, of course.) I happened to look at one at the store, and it actually says "expires: ___" with a date. For every bottle, the last three digits are either "711," "811," or "911," meaning (if what I've heard is true), I bought a test kit (last month) that expired last year. I've read that they're good for five years! The kit I saw at the store expired in 2016.

Assuming what I've heard about the lot number is correct, I'm hoping if I return to PetSmart tomorrow with the receipt, they'll give me a new one. I bought it within the last month, and it's obviously been sitting on their shelf for an eternity.

Also, thank you for all your information! I'll retest the parameters (all of them) tomorrow, once it's been 24 hours since I added the Prime. Fortunately, the aggression seems to have subsided with the increased volume, as both males are out and swimming around even as I type.

 

The date on the bottle is the "made on" date the tests are good for about 3 years from that date. I agree with Catsma and Toosie on doing all three tests daily, remeber I told you that you would need to resume the daily water changes if the ammonia went above the levels in your tap or if you got a nitrite spike.

 

That is fantastic news about the aggression! I believe you heard right as far as the dates go. Catsma will verify that. She is very good with lot numbers.

 

I have been doing the tests daily (not nitrite though, but I'll start doing it again), and so far the ammonia level in the tank has not surpassed that in the tap water. Hopefully the ammonia will go back down soon!