Dwarf Shrimp Dying - Ph issue?

HI all – I have a 6 gallon freshwater tank with various neo cardI shrimp. I stated with 8 adults and at one point I had 80 shrimp! They bred like crazy. I’m now down to 40 and am finding 1-2 dead every day. I have so many cool colors as they have inter-bred and I hate to keep losing them. I noticed the Ph has dropped for a perfect 7.2 to 6.0. I’m not sure why. I also noticed that all of the new baby snails (a ball of moss I bought was loaded with eggs now I a zillion snails) have a lot of white on their shells. The adults don’t – is that odd or do I have a calcium issues? I just don’t understand as everything has been great for the past 8 months.
Parameters are:

Tap water with Prime conditioner

25% water change once every 3-4 weeks

Kh – 80

Gh – 120

Nitrates – 5

Nitrites – 0

Lots of live plants – I use a half a capful of plant fertilizer once a week.
I cut back on feeding them baby shrimp food from 4 times a week to once.
I did switch from a carbon filter to a sponge filter but my shrimp were dying off before that and I kept the old media in the tank for 5 weeks along with the new sponge filter. Any ideas what is going on or more importantly how I can raise the ph?

Thank you!

 

richie.p

 

I'm scratching my head on the ph at the minute what is the ph of your source water as that altered you need to check it. We need closeup photos of you shrimp, I'm also querying the chemicals you put in the tank with only one water change every 3 to 4 weeks over time toxins set in especially with a small tank. This I believe is the back end of a problem that started a while ago,
I'm sure we'll get other opinions
If you could have a look at the invert template we can save time and a lot of questions
I have tagged you to the template

 

thank you. I have no idea what the ph of the tap water is or how to measure it. I'm still a newbie, but here are the answers to the template below:

PH - 6.0
GH - 120ppm
KH - 80 ppm
Nitrites - 0 ppm
Nitrates - 5 ppm
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Copper - ?
TDS - don't know what this is
Temperature - 75 degrees F

Your Aquarium

Size? - 6 gallons
How long has this tank been set up? - 8 months
Are there any other inhabitants? - pest snails -lots
What is your water change schedule and%? - 3 to 4 weeks - about 25%
What do you feed and how often? - shrimp baby powdered food - tiny scoop 3x week
Do you add any chemicals? (water conditioner, fertiliser,meds etc) - prime water conditioner, 1/4 cap of Flourish liquid fert
Filtration? - sponge
Substrate? - sand

Introduction to the Tank (if applicable)

How long has the invert been in the tank? - 3 - 8 moths - hard to tell as babies are being born on the regular - 2 shrimp are buried now
How did you acclimate them? - in bag for 45 min

 

Hi,
I'm going to leave Richie to help with the overall diagnosis, but just wanted to ask firstly re measuring the PH of your tap water.
How do you measure the PH in your tank?

However you do this, just use the same method using water from the tap before it goes into your tank. I'm presuming that you put it in a bucket, condition it there and warm it up (?) so do the PH test and that will give you the 'source water' reading that Richie is asking about.

I must admit though, that I too think that the deaths could be related to the change in the water chemistry over the months. Like Richie said, you're putting a fair bit into a smallish tank and switching very little old water out/new water in.

Secondly, re the Flourish, initially you said 1/2 capful, then 1/4, that's quite a difference! And, either way, quite a lot without it following a PWC.

A picture of the tank and shrimps will definitely be good.

Hope this helps!

Emma

 

You need to do that ph test on the tap water
Also how much prime and how often as it been added

 

Thanks all - I wasn't able to test the water last night - super long hours at work this week. I found another dead shrimp this morning - such a bummer - very cool dark chocolate color that you really don't see. I will test the tap tonight and get the Ph. I use an API test kit for readings. How often are you supposed to change the water on a shrimp tank? I did research beforehand and due to the low bio load and sensitivity to water parameters, all my research indicated a 3-4 week change which is what I do. As for the fert, that was a typo the first time I add one quarter capful once a week. Not sure if this is related but my guppy grass all died recently as well. It was thick and green and full for as long as I had it. It was taking over the tank so I trimmed some out. It slowly started to die and recently fall part and brown very quickly. Could be a coincidence or maybe trimming it killed it? This is so frustrating and mind boggling. 8 months of a thriving tank and now it's slowly dying : (

Here's a pic from a few days ago after an algae pellet treat.

 

How often are you supposed to change the water on a shrimp tank? I did research beforehand and due to the low bio load and sensitivity to water parameters, all my research indicated a 3-4 week change which is what I do.

Every few weeks may be okay, but all the research I've seen says that water changes in shrimp tanks shouldn't exceed 15%, and temperature match it as closely as possible since they're so sensitive to fluctuating water parameters. I'm still very new to keeping them, but I usually change 10% weekly.

 

Pictures of dead shrimp in the tank are so important in these cases or take it out in a tube for an even closer pic, ide also look at taking water from the bottom of the water column and do your test again this is where the higher toxins and perameter may show different.

 

Here's a pic from a few days ago after an algae pellet treat.

The cherry shrimp with the ring around his neck. This might be a calcium deficit. Do you give them some food with calcium, like thawed kale? What foods do you give them and how often? Shrimp are much different than fish..

 

I don't have any cherry shrimp - these are all neo cards - they inter bred like crazy and I got a lot of funky, fun colors!

Pictures of dead shrimp in the tank are so important in these cases or take it out in a tube for an even closer pic, ide also look at taking water from the bottom of the water column and do your test again this is where the higher toxins and perameter may show different.

the problem is I come home to find partially eaten bodies or dead ones mid meal for other shrimp or the snails - so by then they are all white and soft - you won't be able to distinguish any disease.

 

I don't have any cherry shrimp - these are all neo cards - they inter bred like crazy and I got a lot of funky, fun colors!

A cherry is a solid light red neo.

 

HI again,
Sorry, it seems like we're bombarding you with questions here, but it's obvious that you want to get to the bottom of this and every bit of info helps!
Glad that you explained about the Flourish, I'm not an expert on fertilisers at all, but I do use Flourish in my tanks. My Cherry tank is about double the size of yours with a lot more plants (see pic) and I only put 3 or 4 drops of Flourish in once a week after a 10-15% water change. This seems to keep the plants healthy, so cutting back on that would, I'd say, definitely be something to do.

Now, another question (Sorry!) do you vacuum the sand in between your water changes? I ask because the substrate looks a bit dirty (no offence intended!!) and, although, as you say, shrimp do have a low bioload, they still produce waste that needs to be removed.
Finally, the snails...they're pretty massive poop machines, again suggesting the need to vacuum the sand frequently. (I have a battery operated gravel vac that doesn't remove water, just collects the waste in a little bag and is super useful on smaller tanks where siphoning can quickly empty the tank!)

All in all, it looks to me like there's a gradual change/decline going on with your water which is now catching up with the shrimps and possibly the guppy grass.

Along with the water testing as Richie suggested, I'd suggest to vacuum the sand and do a couple of small part water changes when you can, I know it's hard when you're working, and see if things start to improve a bit.

*Just seen your latest replies, don't worry about calling them Cherries, they're all part of the same family.
*The dead shrimps being eaten and providing an enormous meal for their tank mates will further add waste to the water, again suggesting the importance of more frequent part water changes from now on.

Sorry for the long post, but, hope it all helps!


Emma

 

Thank you for asking all of your questions! Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this! Yes, I always vacuum with a water change. I now think the heavy gunk at the bottom is from the snails so I'm going to pull them out and put them in their own bowl of something - I don't want to kill them. The sand has been much dirtier lately and I think that is the cause. I can cut back the fert as well. May I ask where you got that vacuum? I use a minI syphon and spend most of my time after scooping out the baby shrimps they got sucked up! I haven’t been able to come up with a system where I don't get them. although I have new trick where I put a wafer in one corner and then wait about an hour - while they are all going to town, I can vacuum pretty easily without getting many babies - last time, I only got one so it's working! Thanks for all of the replies. I will get more pics tonight!

 

HI again, I definitely agree with taking the snails out, that will definitely help!
This is the vacuum that I have
(on the UK site) but you could just Google it. It's a Marina 3in1 Gravel Cleaner. The water/gunk just sucks up, through the little bag and the water flows through while the muck is collected in the bag. It's not the most powerful thing in the world but it's great for sucking up the poop and leaving the sand in place.
Also, because it's not too powerful, it doesn't seem to harm any shrimps that get sucked up it (although I try not to!) When I've finished, I just turn the bag inside out in the bucket of water I've removed from the tank if it's PWC day or if I'm just doing an extra vac, I just get a small jug of tank water and 'open' the bag in that. Any sucked up shrimps can just be netted and popped back in the tank, no harm done!
Emma
(I like your diversion tactic to keep the shrimps away from the siphon!!)

 

this is great - thank you for the link and the "how to" - ordering now!

 

Glad to have helped! They get very mixed reviews but I really love mine. The trick is to make sure that the water level line on the vacuum is level with the water in your tank. When I had a smaller tank, I actually had to saw a bit off the tube bit to get it short enough. (Then I had to buy a new one when I got bigger tank cos the tube was now too short...!) Anyway, I think that people who say that they don't work, just haven't worked that out!!
I'm really hopeful that with a little bit of cleaning of the substrate and refreshing the water more often plus getting the snails out and cutting back on the Flourish, your water quality will start to get back on track and hopefully your colony will start to thrive again.
Emma

 

I agree with the water replenishment, not enough old water being changed out with fresh. The reason I am confused with Richie is your KH is not depleated. I've never seen KH that high and pH so low, so definitely I suggest testing your tap pH or buying a new pH test because it seems really off.

I have soft water from the tap and had to keep cuttlebone in the shrimp tanks along with Crushed Coral in the filter. I don't replenish minerals for my soft water fish tanks and snails don't do well, the same thing as you describe, shells are etched and they don't reproduce (except for those minI ramshorns!). Also the separation on the cherry shrimp does look like a calcium deficiency. I think your mixed shrimp produced some cherry shrimp.

 

The cherry shrimp with the ring around his neck. This might be a calcium deficit. Do you give them some food with calcium, like thawed kale? What foods do you give them and how often? Shrimp are much different than fish..

I was thinking calcium issues causing the ph to drop as well. Think about it the sudden boom in snails all their shells are made of calcium.
mom no shrimp expert but that coupled with the lack of water changes, all the food, and ferts spells disaster waiting to happen to me.
I’d stop dosing ferts until you get this figured out.
test ph, GH, and KH of your tank and tap water.
I too agree shrimp are very sensitive to changes in ph and temp during acclimation and water changes. I drop acclimate mine.
Id start doing daily 0.5-1 Gallon water changes and see if that helps you out.

Glad to have helped! They get very mixed reviews but I really love mine. The trick is to make sure that the water level line on the vacuum is level with the water in your tank. When I had a smaller tank, I actually had to saw a bit off the tube bit to get it short enough. (Then I had to buy a new one when I got bigger tank cos the tube was now too short...!) Anyway, I think that people who say that they don't work, just haven't worked that out!!
I'm really hopeful that with a little bit of cleaning of the substrate and refreshing the water more often plus getting the snails out and cutting back on the Flourish, your water quality will start to get back on track and hopefully your colony will start to thrive again.
Emma

I agree. I thought the KH would be low especially when I saw the snail boom.
od get both a new ph and KH test kit.

 

I agree. I thought the KH would be low especially when I saw the snail boom.
od get both a new ph and KH test kit.

Oh, if you are using strip tests, get yourself some liquid tests because the strips are not very accurate and you need specific values.

 

I agree with the water replenishment, not enough old water being changed out with fresh. The reason I am confused with Richie is your KH is not depleated. I've never seen KH that high and pH so low, so definitely I suggest testing your tap pH or buying a new pH test because it seems really off.

I have soft water from the tap and had to keep cuttlebone in the shrimp tanks along with Crushed Coral in the filter. I don't replenish minerals for my soft water fish tanks and snails don't do well, the same thing as you describe, shells are etched and they don't reproduce (except for those minI ramshorns!). Also the separation on the cherry shrimp does look like a calcium deficiency. I think your mixed shrimp produced some cherry shrimp.

This is why I asked for a water test nearer the bottom to see what the difference is but it fell on deaf ears so I give up, the kh should hold the ph stable but until you get answers on the water you can try and work out what's going on,

 

thank you - can you add calcium as a supplement? How so? thanks to everyone - I'm a newbie but trying to do my best. I'm finding with aquariums that just because all seems well, doesn't mean it is! I will test the tap water tonight and keep you posted

 

I was advised to use cuttlebone or crushed eggshell as ways to add calcium to the water for my shrimp. I heard wonder shells add calcium but I think they raise hardness too

 

HI again,
It's morning here now, did you get a chance to measure your tap water and the water at the bottom of the tank as Richie suggested? (And maybe do a little PWC?)

As FinalFins and angelcraze said, cuttlebone is the classic way to add calcium.
BUT, I wouldn't even think about adding anything to the tank until you get those test readings and see what the current parameters are in and out of the tank.

Let's see what those say, especially if you've changed a bit of the water. You might see a slow improvement back to where your tank was in the beginning before the chemistry in the tank went astray. (Or the current readings may help nail the problem)

*One final thought, just to add something else to the mix (sorry!) I'd have a close look at the new nitrate test that you do. With all those snails, lack of water changes, build up of poop and dead/part eaten shrimps, I'd be very surprised if it's still 5.
Hope this helps!
Emma

 

I was thinking calcium issues causing the ph to drop as well. Think about it the sudden boom in snails all their shells are made of calcium.
mom no shrimp expert but that coupled with the lack of water changes, all the food, and ferts spells disaster waiting to happen to me.
I’d stop dosing ferts until you get this figured out.
test ph, GH, and KH of your tank and tap water.
I too agree shrimp are very sensitive to changes in ph and temp during acclimation and water changes. I drop acclimate mine.
Id start doing daily 0.5-1 Gallon water changes and see if that helps you out.

Yes, that's what I meant.

 

I did a water test on the Tap itself and not from the tank:
7.5 ph.
Gh 120
Kh 180

I also got a few pics of the fallen - 3 more last night. One was almost completely eaten by the snails, but I got pics of these two. One curled in and one did not. I cleaned the substrate well and feel like an idiot. I thought all that debris was from the guppy grass ding but it’s all snail poop and slime! I did not add any new water – figured it being a little lower was fine for now until we figure out what to do. I have the snails in a bucket – not sure what I’m going to do with them either. There were 15 medium to large snails plus tons of little baby ones. There are more little ones in the tank – hard to get them all out as they are mixed in the sand, but I figured the tiny ones won’t add a lot of waste – when they get bigger I can pull them out.

Thanks every one – any new thoughts now on what to do?

 

HI again!
I think that the readings from your tap are actually fine for the shrimp, and I can only guess at this is what they were in the tank initially when it was thriving.
My suggestion would be to put some tap water in a bucket, condition and warm it up then do a 10-15% PWC. Repeat this daily (or as often as is practical) to freshen up the tank and bring your parameters back to where they were before it all went downhill.
I know that Richie was waiting on your tap results, and he's the true expert here so I'll tag him and let's see what he thinks. I'm working tomorrow so very early night/morning so I'll sign off for tonight and have a look how you're getting on around 4.30 tomorrow morning!
Emma

richie.p The tap water results and pics are here, not sure what you think of my advice?

....forget to say, the sand looks lovely and clean now!

 

....forget to say, the sand looks lovely and clean now!

thank you!!!

 

How many shrimp do you have in the tank and still need that test from the tank

 

I had 80 - now I'm down to about 30

 

How as your kh gone from 80 to 180 and ph drops from 7.2 to 60 there is something seriously wrong there that doesn't compute at all, kh can't rise and drop ph I'm no chemist but that's wrong
Whats the ph gh kh of the tank now
plus is that UV filter on the right

 

it didn't go from that - the tank reading was Ph 6.0 and the Kh 80 - then I tested straight from the tap as was asked and it was Ph 7.5 and Kh of almost 180 (maube 160?). The tank reading was just before I did a water change after sitting about 2 and a half weeks.
There's a sponge filter, very small heater and a soft UV light over the open tank.

Are daily water changes the solution here or should I try a chemical like Ph Up? Is the low Ph even the issue? I'm going to have zero shrimp pretty soon if this keeps up

 

HI again,
It's morning now, just having a quick cup of tea before getting ready for work.

I'd still go with doing those small daily water changes. Perhaps not even add the new full 10-15% all at once. When I do my PWCs, I add a few litres then wait a bit and add the next few etc. So, get the new water ready, take the 10-15% out then add the new water bit by bit.

Your tank water might be not good, but the shrimp are used to it and you'll want to change it gradually so as not to shock them.

I'm no expert on the water chemistry at all, I'm basing this on the fact that your tap water was ok for them in the beginning so that's where you want to get back to.

Unless there is some big, unidentified chemical reaction going on in your tank, I'd go for assuming the deaths are due to an increasing decline in the tank water for all the reasons addressed, v few PWCs, snails, excess fertilisers, waste on substrate dead/decaying shrimps and grass. Imagine all that going on in a tank with no/very little water being taken out!

If you've time, do the tank water tests again for Richie, I'd say definitely do the nitrate one too.
Finally, I'd say a definite no to adding PH Up chemicals, your tap water is fine (to my non-chemical expert brain!) and the goal is to gradually get that new and fresh into the tank.

Hope this helps, it's what I'd do,
Emma

 

I have been asking for an up to date water test on the tank since Tuesday and its not come.
The pictures of the dead shrimp show nothing because it was not done right, again I did show how to take these very important pictures.
All this information is very important to try and solve your or anyone else's problems, this as dragged on for lack of information even itsEmma as asked for these tests for me and nothing come,
You best do a 80% water change as below or risk losing everything,
The only suggestion I can give is you need to do a 80% water change.
THIS MUST BE DONE ON A DRIP METHOD
Or you'll kill everything because of the ph swing, drip the water around the heater so you don't get a cold spot, you also need to add an air stone to get some oxygen in.

 

HI again,
It's morning now, just having a quick cup of tea before getting ready for work.

I'd still go with doing those small daily water changes. Perhaps not even add the new full 10-15% all at once. When I do my PWCs, I add a few litres then wait a bit and add the next few etc. So, get the new water ready, take the 10-15% out then add the new water bit by bit.

Your tank water might be not good, but the shrimp are used to it and you'll want to change it gradually so as not to shock them.

I'm no expert on the water chemistry at all, I'm basing this on the fact that your tap water was ok for them in the beginning so that's where you want to get back to.

Unless there is some big, unidentified chemical reaction going on in your tank, I'd go for assuming the deaths are due to an increasing decline in the tank water for all the reasons addressed, v few PWCs, snails, excess fertilisers, waste on substrate dead/decaying shrimps and grass. Imagine all that going on in a tank with no/very little water being taken out!

If you've time, do the tank water tests again for Richie, I'd say definitely do the nitrate one too.
Finally, I'd say a definite no to adding PH Up chemicals, your tap water is fine (to my non-chemical expert brain!) and the goal is to gradually get that new and fresh into the tank.

Hope this helps, it's what I'd do,
Emma

Thanks Emma! Your advice sounds right so I'm going to give that a go. I got a lot of responses, which I appreciate, but some were contradictory. It's hard to figure out exactly what's wrong. They may not even be dying due to the Ph, but I will try to get that remedied. Fingers crossed that the daily PWCs and taking the snails out will help. These guys are little poop machines. You wouldn’t believe how dirty the bottom was again - not as bad as before, but nowhere near as clean as I had it 2 days ago. I'll let everyone here know how it goes. Again the water tests yielded the below and I use the API kit, not strips. Thanks!

 

Richie – I appreciate your help, I really do, but your post sounds very angry. I signed up for the forum just to get some help and my email notifies me of the latest reply only. I have been replying to the last thread on the forum, so if your responses are buried under another reply, I apologize for not seeing them. I did not see your how to take a photo post. Also, the shrimp I find are all partially eaten, so I don’t know how much data you could gather from a photo. I did reply too many of your replies along with the three water tests, so maybe you missed those, but they are posted below. Again the water tests yielded the below and I use the API kit, not strips. Thanks!

ORIGINAL TANK READING
Prior to water change – approx. 2-3 weeks since the last water change
6.0 Ph
Kh – 80
Gh – 120
Nitrates – 5
Nitrites – 0

TAP WATER
7.5 ph.
Gh 120
Kh 180
Nitrates – 0
Nitrites – 0

BOTTOM OF TANK TEST (from 4 days ago)
6.0 Ph
Kh – 100 – looks between 80 and 120
Gh – 120
Nitrates – 5
Nitrites – 0

 

It's not angry at at all and wasn't ment that way but I and Emma asked for parameters that never came my photo on how to take the best photos is also on the thread, I will step away and leave someone with more experience take over

 

No worries Richie. I posted parameters as requested but I guess you didn't see them much like I missed your how to take a dead shrimp photo which I also stated above with my apologies. I have very little experience which is why I came here for help. Lots of replies with a lot of different questions and advice - sometimes conflicting - so I'll just try the PWCs daily and hope that helps, along with taking out the snails. All the best and thanks again!

 

It's not angry at at all and wasn't ment that way but I and Emma asked for parameters that never came my photo on how to take the best photos is also on the thread, I will step away and leave someone with more experience take over

I combined them above for easy comparison but they were posted throughout the thread.

 

HI again!
Just a quick post as it's been a LONG day at work...

I know it's hard when lots of people are asking for and suggesting different things, especially if you're new to shrimp keeping and just want to do your best. Don't be disheartened, nobody here means any ill-will at all.

Like I said before, I really don't know much (=anything!) about the chemical side of the water so I'm basing my suggestions purely on what it seems to me has happened to your tank over the period from good/thriving to what is happening now. And that's this gradual decline in the water quality. (Not even linked to test results, just more common sense) I noticed too that you said it's an open top tank so you're going to have evaporation going on which will concentrate the toxins even further.

I could be totally wrong of course, but water quality seems the most likely scenario to me.

So, my plan would be,

* do those small daily water changes, letting the conditioned water sit for a while first and is warmed up before slowly adding it
* vacuum as often as is practical (especially if you ordered the battery vac-they make it so easy)
*no more fertilisers for a bit at least
*feed a little amount each day, but remove any food that's not eaten within an hour or so
*I'd also take out some of that water lettuce so it's not covering quite so much of the surface area of the tank (about half covered, half open, I'd suggest)
*finally get out every single snail as you see it!

I really hope that this helps, you're not going to change things overnight but hopefully you'll start to see an improvement in this death rate in a week or so.

Please do come back and let us know how you and your shrimps are getting on.
Good Luck, all the best,
Emma