Dosing Meds (kanaplex) In A Small Tank...am I Measuring Wrong?

HI guys,

I'm trying to dose my 5 gallon tank with Kanaplex, which is tricky because it's a powder.

The container says 1 scoop treats 20 gallons, so I divided this amount into 4 equal portions as best I could to get a 5 gal dose. I did not pack the powder into the spoon, I just scooped gently and leveled off the top.

Is the correct procedure???

I'm asking because after two doses I'm seeing no improvement or change at all. The medication is intended to address three issues:

1) just added a brand new betta who has popeye
2) small outbreak of cyanobacteria growing on my floor
3) rule out bacterial causes for a widltype guppy who recently stopped eating and has clear stringy poo (other fish in the tank have no symptoms, the condition does not appear to be contagious)

This tank is planted and has been stable and cycled for 4 months AM-0 NI-0 NA-0 with 5 male feeder guppies, who have never shown any signs of illness and have steadily flourished and grown in that time. The affected guppy has had his symptoms for about 7 days and is now in a rapid decline. The betta with popeye was introduced two days ago rather than quarantined because it seemed most efficient to treat all these issues at once.

After two doses:
1) no change in the betta's popeye
2) cyanobacteria SEEMED to have vanished after dose 1, but is back in full force this evening
3) feeder guppy is not better (though this may simply mean his issue is not bacterial)
4) no adverse effects on the biofilter. (Kanaplex is not supposed to impact the biofilter, but I know that it can and has for many people, so I'm prepared for this and am monitoring the water closely).

Cyanobacteria is supposed to respond to even a half dose of antibiotics for half the treatment period, so I have no idea how it's still in business after two full doses of Kanaplex.

I get that Popeye may take a while to subside even with pristine water AND medication, but I'm discouraged by the lack of apparent progress in the betta.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated!!

 

Are you sure you're reading the instructions right...? The dosing on all the Kanaplex I have used is 1 level measure per 20L (5 gallons). So you'd need to be using 1 scoop...

 

Oh my god, you're right!!!

I dosed the second tiny amount this AM. Do you think I should go ahead and add the rest to make up a complete dose now?

Also, should I adjust the dosage for the volume of substrate/plants in my tank? The actual water volume is 4gal.

 

I'd do a large water change and then add a full dose. When I dose it I don't adjust for plants and substrate, just based on the theoretical tank volume.

 

Awesome, that's exactly where I was headed... just finished a 50% wc. I'm happy to take your advice on the dosing, it's such a headache splitting up the powder! Thank you SO much for your help!

Ok, back on track the wc and the correct 5 gal meds dose. Hope I start to see some improvement in the betta and the cyanobacteria.

(One of my three problems is crossed off the list. My little guppy died an hour ago. It's been a long time since I lost a fish, I forgot what a sorrow it is. </3 RIP shiny little dude.

I think I've figured out his cause of death at least. I've always fed my livebearers a wide range of foods including things like bits of boiled shrimp and sushI salmon and avocado, and they have thrived on the fresh and varied diet. This batch of feeders enjoys treats but they seem to get some indigestion in the days after. I think this guy got a blockage and it got worse instead of better. Think I'll skip the fancy food from here on out. Wish I had figured this out sooner and taken action )

 

You can and should also use Furan 2, found at walmart called "fungus cure"
Its save to use and should be combined with kanaplex. Popeye is often gram +, and kanaplex is mostly a gram negative antibiotic.
I would stay away from "feeder" guppies, they often have internal parasites and it can wipe out many tanks.
If you want wild guppies, I can tell you where to get good quality wild guppies, for a good price.

 

You can and should also use Furan 2, found at walmart called "fungus cure"
Its save to use and should be combined with kanaplex. Popeye is often gram +, and kanaplex is mostly a gram negative antibiotic.
I would stay away from "feeder" guppies, they often have internal parasites and it can wipe out many tanks.
If you want wild guppies, I can tell you where to get good quality wild guppies, for a good price.

Thanks for your reply Whitewolf! Kanaplex is described as a broad spectrum antibiotic, doesn't that mean it treats both gram positive and gram negative infections? Popeye is also explicitly listed as a treatable condition for kanaplex, which is the reason I decided to go use that instead of Furan2 (which doesn't list it)! I didn't realize they could be used together, but I'm reluctant to double up and increase the risk to the biofilter unless it's really necessary? My understanding was that very few fish conditions are gram positive (TB being an exception), and I didn't see popeye on any of those lists. Can you point me to a source?

I appreciate your concern about feeders. I do know the risks - these were very carefully selected and have been 100% healthy and thriving since I brought them home 4 months ago. They are such active, easygoing, colorful little fish with a ton of personality; I have a special place in my heart for them. <3 I would still love to know about good sources for wildtypes, please do tell!

I do think I saw a small bit of improvement in my betta's eyeballs this morning...they are still bulgy but the cornea did really seem less distended, so I'm encouraged that the treatment is beginning to have an effect!!

 

Popeye can be caused by several diffrent bacteria, but usually is a strep infection.
Kanaplex is a primarily gram negative antibiotic. Oxytetracycline is the most effective broad spectrum antibiotic avaliable, It will kill Gram + and most Gram - bacteria, and you can't overdose the stuff. And 50 years after its discover, Terramycin it is still being used in the fish, chicken and livestock industry.
Kanamycin is newer, more powerful gram negative bacteria killer. It is reccomended to use it in addition with Nitrofurazone for a broad spectrum powerful, and safe 1 2 punch. The nitrofurazone does not harm biological filtration, if anything does, it would be the kanamycin.


According to Drugs.com

Microbiology
Mechanism of Action

Kanamycin, an aminoglycoside, acts by inhibiting the synthesis of protein in susceptible microorganisms. It is bactericidal in vitro against Gram-negative bacteria and certain Gram-positive bacteria.

Mechanism of Resistance
Aminoglycosides are known to be ineffective against Salmonella and Shigella species in patients. Therefore, in vitro susceptibility test results should not be reported.


So it is effective against Staphycoccus, not strepocaccus.
I will pm you the email in where you can get quality wild guppies.

Well maybe it will treat strep, but there's no reason NOT to combine them.

 

That's great info WW, thank you SO much!

I did find a source that says PopEye (unlike most other eye infections) is usually caused by gram-negative Aeromonas, which is I think what I had seen before...



Also the excellent link you included describes Furan as a mostly gram neg and slightly gram positive antibiotic, but it does mention Aeromonas specifically and also raves about the emergent properties of combined use with kanaplex, so I'm definitely going to try it.

I have some old Furan 2, but it's a couple of years expired. Should I order a fresh batch? I wish I had begun treating with both simultaneously (this evening will be my second correct dose of Kanaplex (#2 of 3)). If I use the old stuff I can treat with both tonight, if I have to order it might take a couple of days... or I can try to find it at a LFS...it doesn't seem to be sold at Petsmart/Petco anymore....best course of action?

Thanks again,
GC

P.S. Biofilter still holding strong (hooray!), and no visible cyano this morning.

I'm having trouble finding Furan 2 at my local Walmarts and LFSs, but Pet Supermarket seems to cary Jungle Fungus Clear, which has the same active ingredients [nitrofurazone and furazolidone] according to the two sources below (not to be confused with API Fungus Cure, which is Victoria Green B and Acriflavine):

• API Furan-2 costs 8x more than Jungle Fungus Clear - The Planted Tank Forum

Could I treat with Kanaplex and Jungle Fungus Clear together this evening instead of Kanaplex+Furan2?

EDIT: Your source mentions that Furan 2 should not be used with live plants! Is this true? My tank is planted! Actually, I guess since they are all potted it wouldn't be a big deal to relocate them temporarily, lol. My poor 2.5 gallon betta will be crowded for a couple of days! Really glad I spotted that, whew.

UPDATE: Ok, after making some phone calls, neither any of my LFS nor Pet Supermarkets carry either Furan 2 or ANY Jungle products. Geez! So now my choices are:

1) Use the "expired" medication I have on hand (from 2013)
2) Order a furan product online and miss the opportunity to use furan+kanaplex together (unless I do a second course of kanaplex)

Any suggestions?

The good news is that this doesn't seem to be an emergency situation. The popeye is certainly not getting worse, his eyes are not cloudy, and I have read accounts of it clearing completely after as much as a month, so I'm not as worried as I was initially about damage to his eyes simply from prolonged swelling.

 

The "fungus cure" at walmart should be jungle brand. I remember before someone told me that apI made a similar "fungus cure" product that had those ick meds in it.
Nitrofurazone is primarily a gram + antibiotic and antimicrobial agent. It is good for wounds and non-infectious tail/fin rot. Also any fungus that grows on eggs.

I would just use the old furan.
I have also heard, I think here from cindi, that popeye can be caused by gram - bacteria as well, but if you combine Kanamycin with the furan you have all your bases covered. I usually use Oxytetracycline, which is very very broad spectrum and powerful deals with Gram + and Gram - bacteria. Works especially well on fish, since they tend to get Gram - bacteria that it treats well. And it doesn't hurt their kidneys like kanamycin can if you overdose or misuse. Anywho,
Of course antibiotics should be a last resort, not a prophlayctic approach, that would be more like a de-wormer on some new or wild type fish.
I have used it on live plants and it did not hurt them. But of course any med that is a chemical dye really is not good for plants. Tho Furan is safe for all that. (plants, BB, catfish)
Sounds like you know what your doing.

At least I have always used Furan as such. It does not work well at all for Columnaris, which means it is gonna always work best as a weak antimicrobial. It will NOT work for most types of tail rot that spreads and covers the body, like F. Columnaris and pseudomonas.

 

Ok, I added my second dose of Kanaplex as well as half of a 10 gallon packet of old Furan 2.

The Furan didn't seem to dissolve very completely in the water, it kind of floated like a mist of fine particles. I wonder if that means it's no good.

I also ordered some NEW furan 2 online. If this current round of meds doesn't improve the popeye, I'll probably give the tank a breather and some good water changes and try again with kanaplex and fresh furan 2.

Sounds like you know what your doing.

Oh thanks, but I'm really just trying to research carefully and wrap my head around this stuff...its been a long time since I treated for anything, I really needed a refresher course

I couldn't find products online contain oxytetracycline; what do you use (or do you just buy the powder)?

 

You can get medicated laced food from angels plus.com Its the "antibiotic II". It works best in food.
It would be useful to have the powder and mix it in food Only if you have a lot of tanks. I use it for guppies, cheap, effective, and guppies you know there are always lots of them. Plus guppies will eat even with half their body rotted away, lol. You could get a small pouch, I think their pouches of medicated food run around 5 dollars for enough to last a couple years. I think after 2 maybe 3 years it is not longer good and should be tossed. They need to be fed vigouously 3x a day for it to work well. Pack it in them.
Since you may have only a few fish, probably best to save your money and just keep the kanamycin on hand. Dont waste it and dump it into a 75 gallon tank!!!

Oh thanks, but I'm really just trying to research carefully and wrap my head around this stuff...its been a long time since I treated for anything, I really needed a refresher course

I am your man then. I use to just read and read books and now online and watch my dad as a kid. You really learn a lot about diseases over time when you mostly just raise (or in my case, keep) guppies. Its realaxing to me and something to play with on the phone or laptop when I'm bored or can't sleep. Living in nebraska, you grow fond of livestock and animal husbandry. My wifes dad is a microbiologist and works at a Livestock pharmecuitals plant. They probably mix thousands of pounds of medicated feed for chickens and whatnot a day. Its just interesting stuff to me. Its good to know too, because nowadays fancy bred fish are not as strong as the mutt guppies they use to raise.
I also (I know I sound full of it) enjoy helping people learn the hobby. So much bad advice on the internet nodays, I don't mind coming here everyday or twice to answer some simple questions for new hobbyists. I don't like it how others imput their suggestions only on water quality, but fail to diagnoise the disease and reccomend a treatment for it. The hobbyist learns about correct water chemistry, which is great, but they leave still not knowing what exactly what killed their fish.... Also many enthusiastic hobbyist will chime in with this med or that, which is fine, but it is a waste of time and mis-information that spreads to others.
This site is worldwide, a google search comes here from any country in the world. Its one of the first to show up on google also.Its an execellent site and I'm proud to be a part of it, however lame that may sound

 

Since you may have only a few fish, probably best to save your money and just keep the kanamycin on hand.

I dunno I'm kind of excited about this Oxytetracycline now! Especially if it's a food so (once again) I wouldn't have to worry about the biofilter too much. I like the idea of trying that next if this course of meds doesn't help. New Betta may have popeye but he's still a piggy, I'm sure he'll eat as much as I give him. My current strategy for managing my fish addiction is to have only a couple of small tanks but to lavish them with all my obsessive care and involvement, however disproportionate . The 5 gal is a fancy little design I built which required a truly insane amount of time and $$, so you know, in for a penny, in for a pond.....er, pound

 

Ya, it would be great to have on hand, saves a lot of money rushing out and buying antibiotics that cost 15 dollars each for a ten pack, when you get 3oz pouch of food for 5 dollars and its big and will last for a couple or 3 years before it goes bad.

 

Ya, it would be great to have on hand, saves a lot of money rushing out and buying antibiotics that cost 15 dollars each for a ten pack, when you get 3oz pouch of food for 5 dollars and its big and will last for a couple or 3 years before it goes bad.

Well, the shipping is like $9-13 *cough*, plus they have a minnium purchase for online orders, so $20 all in, but nevermind

 

Ya I mean you have to order at least 2 pouches of food, but they have plenty of other meds that would come in handy (like metronidazole or levimasole de-wormer flake)
Its up to you of course, but it will definitely save you money in the long run if you have a lot of fish and tanks. Which dosent seem like it would be worth it for a couple tanks.

 

So the popeye did not respond to the Kanaplex+1/2 course of (expired) Furan 2
On day 6 of treatment (a complete three dose application of Kanaplex and 2 doses of Furan) I did register 0.25ppm ammonia in the tank, and since there had been no change in the betta, I pulled the plug on treatment (50%wc, dosed with prime to neutralize ammonia, ran carbon on the tank to remove meds, discontinued Furan, and supplemented bb with filter media from my other tank). The next morning the water tested perfectly again.

The meds do seem to have wiped out the cyanobacteria, so at least there's that.

I have read that calcium ions have a big impact on the efficacy of medications. My Kh is 5/6, do you think that could have dampened the antibiotics?

I received the Oxytetracycline-laced food from Angels plus yesterday. Betta definitely didn't like the flavor, so I made the flakes into little pellets using bloodworm juice to create a paste. (Wanted to both to add flavor and concentrate the food so as to "stuff him with it" as recommended).

Last night I got him to eat SEVEN of these medicated pellets, but this morning he was completely off them and spat them out. I'm going to try soaking them in more bloodworm and garlic juice next time.

His eyesight seems to have gotten a little worse, which makes feeding him (esp in a tank with hungry and agile feeder guppies) a real PITA, lol.

*SIGh* In spite of initial success it looks as though this is going to be an uphill battle. I went home at lunch to try again with the medicated food, and I think he actually only swallowed one tiny pill of it. Fresh garlic juice and bloodworm juice soaks made no discernable difference. I wish I hadn't fed him so much of it yesterday, maybe it didn't agree with him somehow and that's why he's being a brat.

Meanwhile the guppies are getting plenty of antibiotics they don't need, in spite of my efforts to keep them at bay and remove dropped and spit out pieces.

I think I can count on one hand the number of times treatment for a condition has worked the way it's supposed to. Sometimes I feel as though this whole hobby runs on voodoo. Frustrating.

 

How do you feel about taking your fish to a vet? Treating fish yourself can be very frustrating. Vets often use injectable antibiotics so there's no issue with binding calcium in the water or food and no problems with them refusing the food. Also, the antibiotics are newer and bacteria are less likely to be resistant. And, of course, they're better than us at diagnosis.

 

How do you feel about taking your fish to a vet? Treating fish yourself can be very frustrating. Vets often use injectable antibiotics so there's no issue with binding calcium in the water or food and no problems with them refusing the food. Also, the antibiotics are newer and bacteria are less likely to be resistant. And, of course, they're better than us at diagnosis.

It would certainly be an adventure! If I did that it would be primarily for the learning experience, since this isn't an expensive fish (and he isn't at death's door or anything) and I'm sure the appointment alone will cost like $50. I have no idea where my nearest aquatic vet is, but heck, it'd be cool to find out. I'll look into/consider it! It sure would feel good to get some definitive resolution to a health problem for once. Have you done this before with good results?

 

Nitrofurazone does not treat internal infections unfortunately. Popeye is most frequently a gram positive infection which Kanamycin does not treat very well and your best bet would be erythromycin.

 

Nitrofurazone does not treat internal infections unfortunately. Popeye is most frequently a gram positive infection which Kanamycin does not treat very well and your best bet would be erythromycin.

Thank you Sarcasm Included! I'll consider that as a next step since if I don't have any better luck with the medicated food. I'll probably just move the filter media into my other tank and dose the 5 gallon with Prime during the Erythromycin treatment period to avoid destroying my BB and keep ammonia from becoming a problem. Seem reasonable?

Or should I should treat the betta in a quarantine tank to avoid exposing the guppies to all this medicine?

 

I would move him to a hospital tank to treat, mostly because erythromycin is one of the most expensive meds. It will kill nitrosoma but only some of the archaea, so if the tank is fully established it will be fine.

 

I would move him to a hospital tank to treat, mostly because erythromycin is one of the most expensive meds. It will kill nitrosoma but only some of the archaea, so if the tank is fully established it will be fine.

Well it's only a 5 gal tank, so it wouldn't cost much to treat. The tank has been cycled and completely stable (with plants and fish and the odd hitchhiking snail) for four months, so I believe it's established, but it did just take a little hit from the kanaplex+furan :/

I haven't had any luck finding an aquatic vet in my neck of the woods, so I'll pick up some Erythromycin tomorrow and try treating him in a hospital tank.

The only other option I've read about is Epsom salt or brackish salt baths.

 

Epsom salt baths will help by reducing swelling but won't treat the infection. Brackish water is best used with brackish fish and will do more harm to your betta than good. Brackish treatment involves changing his water to near marine salinity in his tank. Most parasites and bacteria are either freshwater or marine and switching the tank kills them off, but brackish fish are just fine with the switch.

 

Epsom salt baths will help by reducing swelling but won't treat the infection. Brackish water is best used with brackish fish and will do more harm to your betta than good.

Thank you! I was actually referring to a specific product, Seachem Brackish Salt. It is not sodium chloride but "a blend of salts" that seems to be mostly magnesium. It seems very similar to Epsom salts, which some people caution against because they're not designed for aquaria. I might do the salt and antibiotic treatments concurrently, as I'm once again concerned about the effect of prolonged swelling on his vision as well as the infection.

 

Brackish is just a mix of sea water and fresh water so any marine salt mix can be used, just in smaller doses than a salt water tank. Calling it brackish salts means they can charge more. Tge antibiotics were developed for humans originally and Methylene blue and malachite green are dyes, epsom salt is fine for baths.

 

Hi! Yes, it's strange that they're calling it brackish salt really. My goal isn't to crease the salinity of the water per se but to create a solution that might draw fluid out of his eyes. Since NaCl isnt' great for plants I'm glad this "brackish" magnesium salt or Epsom salts will do the job.

I do have some methelyne blue on hand and one of my sources insists on using that in conjunction with Erythromycin for popeye. Thoughts?

 

Interesting turn of events: I fasted the betta yesterday after he refused his breakfast and all day today, and just now he ATE two medicated foods soaked in bloodworm juice. Clearly he got so full Tuesday night the felt he could afford to be picky. If I can manage to get two pellets into him three times a day (6 total), for a week, do you think that will be enough to constitute a proper dose of the Oxytetracycline Whitewolf?

Should I wait while I try this treatment or (since he's not exactly scarfing the food) go straight to the erythromycin/methylin blue? I don't want him to decline while I'm messing around trying to sort out his issues.

Thanks so much for your help guys <3

 

Yes that is good.

 

It would certainly be an adventure Dave! If I did that it would be primarily for the learning experience, since this isn't an expensive fish (and he isn't at death's door or anything) and I'm sure the appointment alone will cost like $50. I have no idea where my nearest aquatic vet is, but heck, it'd be cool to find out. I'll look into/consider it! It sure would feel good to get some definitive resolution to a health problem for once. Have you done this before with good results?

If you haven't already, there's a search engine for aquatic vets:



I've had good results. They saved my favorite fish who was in bad shape. He was given injectable antibiotics and tube-fed. They can do a lot more than we can and they have a lot more experience. They're the ones who take care of the fish at public zoos and aquariums.

The prices seem low compared to what they charge for dogs or cats or even reptiles. I had water testing and three fish anesthestized and gill and skin biopsies done for around $150.

 

I've had good results. They saved my favorite fish who was in bad shape. He was given injectable antibiotics and tube-fed. ... I had water testing and three fish anesthetized and gill and skin biopsies done for around $150.

That's pretty cool! The gill and skin biopsies sound fascinating. It must have been such a relief to have definitive answers and targeted treatment.

I searched another aquatic vets lookup site, but yours is much better! There are actually three people on that list within a reasonable distance of me (45 min drive or so). I'll keep it in mind as an option if things start to go downhill.

 

Update: After that initial rocky start my betta has been a good boy about taking his meds (and now I know some good techniques to use with picky fish!). He ate seven pellets on Friday, and nine each on Saturday and Sunday, so he should be getting a good dose of the oxytetracycline. I will continue the treatment for 7-10 days as directed.

Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any significant change in his condition. I'm guessing that at this point his exophthalmia is probably permanent. Has anyone else had a fish recover from popeye after more than a month? He does still seem to be able to see, and is in all other respects healthy and thriving, so I guess I shouldn't be too upset about it. I just don't want to leave him with an untreated infection in his head if it's a danger, and I'm irked that I haven't been able to cure him.

EDIT: I did notice some of his poop this morning, and it was kinda chunky, which made me wonder whether the pellets are being completely digested. Does anyone think this could impair the treatment?

 

I use to put it in the blender for my guppies. I suppose you could soak if for a few mins first

 

Have you started treating with the erythromycin yet? Methylene blue baths won't do much for this type of infection, though definitely a good medication. Epsom salt baths are more effective in reducing swelling just keep under 5 minutes for bettas. You can still cure him, you just need to keep the water pristine clean and treat with the right medication.

 

Have you started treating with the erythromycin yet?

I bought the erythromycin but didn't start treatment bc he began eating his oxytetracycline food and I thought doubling up on treatments might not be great (?). He's been taking NINE pellets a day of the medicated food for like 6 days now, so I really did follow your instructions Whitewolf ! He isn't showing any improvement (except that his fins are growing and he seems like a happy, perky fish), so I'm starting to phase him back to a normal food level (but still feeding medicated stuff only till the end of the week). I guess I'll quarantine him and start do the erythromycin this weekend, but is it really going to do any good? I don't want to keep blasting him with medicine if he just has a permanent physical deformity...

 

The erythromycin won't hurt him but you can put him through a rest period of 10 days. You will need to keep close watch on him to determine if he is getting worse.