Domestic Dispute! Mated Angel Pair... Divorce?

So I've had these angels since they were dime size. I got my "panda" angel (she's in my pic), a month sooner than my striped angel.

They Got along fine and ended up mating, finding a nice leaf together, laying eggs (probably about at least 7 times now), the eggs even got to the wiggler stage once before they ate them! (Told them I'd call CPS on their tail fins if they ever did that again!)

Their relationship always seemed a bit... rough, there were still lots of peaceful moments, swimming together, picking out a leaf together, always beside each other, and there were never any damaged fins or scales so I let it go! Maybe the leaf mortgage is getting to them or something, but lately they seem a lot more rough in their interactions. Like, if there was a dog house in there he'd be in it. Or if she could leave to be staying at her mothers place, she would... maybe their staying together for the future fry...
They've got some eggs right now that are almost wigglers, but she is fiercely protecting them. Won't let him anywhere near! and before she laid these eggs, for about a week, he wouldn't let her out of the corner of the tank! just kept bullying her into the corner. She was still eating but stayed in the corner. Neither of them look hurt at all... no ripped fins, no torn up scales or whatnot... so I'm not sure what's going on...
Do I have an issue here?

 

Unfortunately this is all too common with breeding pairs. I've had at least 13 different pairs over the last couple years and they quite often seem to get to the point where they can't get along anymore. Not always...but pretty frequently. And I've sadly had two separate occasions where the domestic abuse resulted in the death the male half of the pair. It's really frustrating.

Neither of the males that died had any physical damage to them. I believe the first one did have damage to its swim bladder from a few too many headbutts from his wife. Because suddenly he just couldn't swim anymore... he couldn't maintain his balance. The other one died from the simple stress of the female constantly putting him in a corner and bullying him.

Is there any way you can separate the two? Just Keep a very close eye on whichever one is being submissive. If you see any change in appetite or color or anything, you might want to intervene at that point. Have they been doing a lot of lip locking?

This is why I always tell people, who are shooting for a breeding pair thinking that will allow them to have two angels peacefully, thst they are fooling themselves if they think it's going to equal peacefulness. It's quite the opposite. They're nasty to their tank mates and after a while they get nasty to each other.

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this :-( I know how it feels.

 

That is so disappointing to hear.
Well, it started off with him bullying her, then when the eggs came, it's now her bullying him. She's not doing it as bad. She's not pushing him into a corner like he was to her. Just not letting him anywhere near the eggs... (which are wigglers now!! Yay!!) I'm not sure if it's lip locking. I've actually never seen them actually lock lips. Usually they'll flare them selves up and "flick" there fins at each other, then they'll go back and fourth between butting each other in the ... chin? Neck? ... the area under the mouth. When one is done they'll turn away and the other will then stop as well.
Before when he was pushing her into the corner he'd keep poking at her with his mouth... Usually in the eye area!!! (Poor girl) until she hid behind some tall plants.
Sadly I do not have another place to put one of them. And with my rummynose tetras in the tank as Well, I'm hesitant to divide it.... what about taller plants dividing it down the middle? To take out any visual sightlines? I do mean to upgrade to a larger tank in the future... not the near future unfortunately... I'd hate so to have to rehome them as I've grown so fond of them!!!

 

The small size of the tank is likely a big part of the problem..... I know you don't want to rehome one but if it continues to get worse you'll lose one to death instead :-( keep a very close eye on them! I'm sorry you're facing this situation I know how it feels.

As for the Wigglers, you said "yay", which I understand because it's exciting....but I'm concerned that if you don't even have another tank to separate the quarreling parents where do you plan to put the babies? They're not going to survive in this tank unfortunately.

 

I will rehome if I must . I came home from work last night and the eggs were gone. And they were swimming together like nothing happened. Again. It's like a cycle. I was never hoping for babies originally. But when they started laying eggs I got so excited! I wouldn't have a place for fry. You are correct. So do I just remove eggs whenever they do this... or let nature take its course... I'm working on convincing hubby that I need a 55gal. He sees fish keeping as a money pit. I just love how relaxing and peaceful it is. And seeing the fish interact (not when they fight of course). I am sad.

 

I'm so sorry! I don't want you to be sad.

Maybe if you do remove the eggs immediately it'll help with the aggression issues. Did you say they typically only get aggressive when they have eggs around?

I'm so glad that I don't have a spouse I have to answer to when it comes to this hobby LOL

I hope things get better for you. It doesn't have to be a money pit! You can get some incredibly nice setups for very cheap sometimes even free!! I've made a lot of used tank purchases over the years. With the right patience and you can get a great deal. You just have to keep looking on a regular basis!

 

Don't be sorry. I appreciate the advice. I suppose I've been in denial. I thought they mated kind of like birds do for life. I didn't know they would just decide to up and kill each other someday.
Lucky you! I regularly keep an eye on the local buy and sell sites. Great deals to be sure! But it's mostly the hubby. He'll wear down eventually I'm sure. But I'm just a year in on fish keeping so it's going to take a bit longer.
I've come to the conclusion I will rehome one of them. Choosing which one is the hard part. My female (Penelope) is very calm and gentle. Except when there were eggs. That's when she was fierce. But my male (Bell) is the more aggressive all the time fish. So it would make sense to keep Penelope I guess.... But bell is so beautiful! He's dark silver with thick black stripes. And has fingerprint looking stripes on his fins. And around his gills he has this iridescent blue colour!! Ahhh... this is hard

 

I got 3 Angels, the extra male allows the female to spread her wrath on her mate and dither.the two males get along and always look like they are saying stuff about her, then she comes to nag them and they turn their backs likely to mitigate any damage cuz she is more bark than bite. ive seen Goldie[Female] liplock with Seven, but that is usually when he gets fed up with her. and the extra male watches the show. perhaps the addition of cheap dither would help. I keep neons/cardinals/rasbora het. with my fullgrown Angels. but this won't work for you cuz of the nature of your tank. black neon tetras are larger and might work if you got a bigger tank.

try to score a 55 gallon acrylic 2nd hand are relatively common with patience. you can lift it empty with one hand. I scored one on craigslist for $120 with goodies. your husband is right about the money pit, but perhaps you can be the one to profit off someone else's failure on craigslist or facebook.com/marketplace

 

Kasshan , I'm curious as to why you have a third angel as a dither as opposed to a traditional dither fish? I know you have some rather unconventional methods in regards to fish keeping so I'm hoping you can shed some light on this. Usually, housing 3 angels spell trouble.

 

cuz not all Angels are created equal. I had a total of 7 angels, before I got my discus. I kept the three that got along best, so it did not spell trouble in my language at least. I use logic with what I have on hand and closely watch behaviors to see what works and what doesn't. I don't like to pretend I'm an expert by parroting information I heard from other folks, I don't know other people's fish, so I try not to judge. However, I do know my fish, so I share my anecdotal experience because it is one of my successes as opposed to my many failures. many aspects of my tank have been very consistent and changes are gradual; chemistry, stocking, and behavior.
textbooks are dandy for the amateur and a great starting off point, but conventional knowledge often gets too rigid when behavior is in play, behavior is a wildcard variable.
Knowledge is knowing a Tomato is fruit, Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

I also have a 3ft wooden dowel that I use to break up really bad fights on rare occasion. they respect the stick and now they break it up even before I put the dowel in.

 

So... what would the likelihood be of a larger tank solving the problem.... say if you could put it as a percent.... I think hubby is really considering signing off on a larger tank. It would just be nice to know maybe if it maybe it's just a last ditch attempt or a real solution to a common problem?

 

bigger is always better. crowding causes aggression in a lot of animals, not just fish. socially intelligent fish like Angels need to feel like they own a bit of territory just for themselves to retreat to. creating barriers with ornaments or tall plants creates the illusion of more space and compartmentalizes patches of territory.

 

I had a matted pair that regularly spawned in my 75. My male decided he no longer wanted to spawn, which drove the female nuts. She started attacking everything in the tank, then turned her attention to the male. She relentlessly pursued him and probably would have killed him. I kid to rehome her. It happens more often then you might think.

 

basically that was my thought on Angel pairs as well, from all the reading I did about them, a lot of times 1 on 1 aggression is too much to bear and probably much worse in a smaller tank. For Angels at least I guess Three's Company; plus you will need a few Mr Ropers, Mr Furleys and a whole mess of Larry's too as dithers to spread the fun out evenly.

I read in many sources the best way to get a male female pair was to get a group of seven, so I kept the mated pair and the next best male. I think two males one female is better than two females one male. from my personal experience in Angels and other cichlids often times the female aggression can be over the top, while the males will just spar with each other. I know this cuz Goldie my female shredded and broke the face of another female Angel, I kept the male from that pair and rehomed the other three Angels cuz I needed room to get Discus in the future. For more than a year now with 3 Angels I have had harmony and only mild aggression and brief liplocking; I get monthly batches of eggs, but no dice on babies cuz it is a busy community; anyhow comparing these behaviors from "then and "now" - I considered it tame now.

when you get a bigger tank, consider getting more Angels, things might chill out

 

Actually 3 is the worst. In most cases 2 will pair up and bully the third.

 

fascinating, I guess I have an anomaly with my 3 angels. I only report what I have personally observed. consider it just another deviating data point to add to the trend line.

was the third Angel in your setup a girl or boy. I am curious to know whether the gender of the third changes things up? or is the targeted aggression not gender relevant?

but I wonder if having 4 discus also helps, cuz all seven of them interact with each other in my tank.
and I also wonder whether having large schools of tetras would have an effect as well on Angel behavior. dithering and all.

 

fascinating, I guess I have an anomaly with my 3 angels. I only report what I have personally observed. consider it just another deviating data point to add to the trend line.

was the third Angel in your setup a girl or boy. I am curious to know whether the gender of the third changes things up? or is the targeted aggression not gender relevant?

but I wonder if having 4 discus also helps, cuz all seven of them interact with each other in my tank.
and I also wonder whether having large schools of tetras would have an effect as well on Angel behavior. dithering and all.

Female was the third. There ferocious. The male wanted both. Then with 2 mated pairs all 4 fight . I'm trying 2 pair in a 125 now. It looks like both females are fighting over the dominant male. He's loving it by the way. And the weaker male is left on his own in the cornor.

 

See I had 2 pairs too. And looks like a lot of numbers for angels have "worst numbers". From what I've read two angels can kill each other and four can too just as well. So 3 angels just seems like an arbitrary number anyone can google and parrot back. The 1 female broke the face the face of the other female, which left a extra male left over and after much observing the two males were quite docile to one another and had minimal aggressive behaviors. And with just 1 female thing chilled out.
@op I would still get more angels when u upgrade tanks

 

See I had 2 pairs too. And looks like a lot of numbers for angels have "worst numbers". From what I've read two angels can kill each other and four can too just as well. So 3 angels just seems like an arbitrary number anyone can google and parrot back. The 1 female broke the face the face of the other female, which left a extra male left over and after much observing the two males were quite docile to one another and had minimal aggressive behaviors. And with just 1 female thing chilled out.
@op I would still get more angels when u upgrade tanks

Angel fish are crazy. I had a pair that spawned regularly for years then stopped. If I didn't remove the female she would have killed her mate. 1 is always fine. 2 works 2 males 2 females. A male And female good until 1 no longer wants to spawn. 3 or more anything can happen