Does my snow white danio have TB?

So sorry to hear about endlercollector endlers having TB. Now that I saw your video in , I'm wondering if TB isn't also what one of my snow white danios has. As endlercollector's video is the first one I've seen of TB, I thought I better post mine as well to get some opinions.

I've moved her into a specimen container and toward the end of the video I show the 29G tank of my other danios -- one of which is the last remaining of the 3 snow white danios I purchased several months ago. The first one also died in a similar fate that this one seems to be -- losing weight, not eating, getting gaunt, and its spine does look a bit curved.

If it is TB, is euthanization the best option or are there successful treatments for it?

Also, has any ever taken a sick and dying fish to a fish vet and had them run the tests for TB? How costly is that type of test and how do I find a fish vet locally? (I never knew there were such types of vets but I suppose it makes sense.) I know, I know, Google's my friend. I suppose I could just search for fish vets, huh? ;-) But if this test is likely a $100 test or more, it isn't going to happen, but for $25 I'd do it just to put my mind to rest.

 

I'm sorry to say that this is fish TB. Once a fish has the curved spine and gaunt chest, it is too late to medicate, so I recommend putting her down in a little bit of tank water with clove oil.

You may try to medicate the rest of the tank, and some members here have had varying degrees of success. However I have to warn you that there is a lot of resistance to antibiotics and the TB may reappear at a later point.

@ kevymd had a fish tested once for TB. Perhaps she can tell you what the costs are like.

 

Thanks for your quick reply, endlercollector. I will try to find where I stashed my clove oil. In the meantime, can you remind me how much to put in and is that all I need to do? Or is there something else I was supposed to have alongside the clove oil? Vodka or something (which I don't have on hand).

 

I just found the instructions for euthanizing fish with clove oil on a sticky:

One of the best methods of euthanasia available to most aquarists is the clove oil method.
Move the fish to a small tank (about a gallon of water will do for most fish, though some very large fish may need more).
Take a pint jar and fill with water from this container.
Add three drops of clove oil.
Put the lid on the jar and shake vigorously until you have a complete emulsion (the oil is totally mixed in with the water).
Slowly add back into the water, stirring gently with your hand.
Once the fish has stopped moving, it is sleeping. At that point, you can either add vodka to the water, or you can add another six drops of clove oil. If, after 30 minutes, the fishes' gills are still moving, add more vodka or a couple more drops of clove oil. When the fish's gills don't move for ten minutes, the fish is deceased. (Yes, ten minutes is a long time, but it's the amount of time vets say is needed to insure the fish is actually dead.)
Note: Some vets say that the preceeding is not an acknowledged method, due to lack of testing. I argue that the number of times it has been done by aquarists is testing, and it is almost always a peaceful drop into sleep.

Still hunting for that small bottle of clove oil.

 

I just found the instructions for euthanizing fish with clove oil on a sticky:



Still hunting for that small bottle of clove oil.

I only put enough water and a coffee mug or another plastic container for the fish to fit in comfortably. I uncap and shake the clove oil over it about 10 times. Then I cover it with a napkin or sheet of paper so that the fish can be comfortable in the dark until it passes.

 

So according to that Walstad article on Fish TB, UV sterilizers are one way to decrease the EM in a tank especially if new fish have been added recently.

I have an AquaClear 50 filter on my 29G tank. How would a UV sterilizer work with an HOB type filter? Or do they only work with canister filters. My SunSun 304B has one installed into it, but I'm curious how they can be used in aquariums with HOB filters? Any ideas?

 

Then I cover it with a napkin or sheet of paper so that the fish can be comfortable in the dark until it passes.

I wish I had read that in time. Instead, I watched my little fishy die. It wasn't exactly "peaceful" -- he went spastic there for a while and nearly jumped out of the container. Poor thing.

 

I'm so sorry he went that way. I have found that with more room, the fish panic more.

I am actually using UV level one sterilizers to kill free-floating mycobacteria in four tanks that have HOB filters. Walstad said it took about eight months for her to see positive results. I only just got mine set up in May, and so I am hoping to see more improvement over the winter. I will write more in a separate thread.

@ Junebug
The problem with using any antibiotics is that the disease itself, while new to us, has been floating around other people's tanks for many years before. Those fish keepers probably hit it many times with antibiotics in the past and then thought they had fixed the problem. These fish then come to us with multiple issues that are late and may never come to the surface if all the water parameters I can't very well. But they may undergo go some kind of stress, become ill, and show some symptoms of one central problems. We hit them with antibiotics and other medications that might fix the most apparent illness but at the same time kill off beneficial bacteria in their digestive tracts and other parts of their internal systems. Then you have a fish whose overall immune system has been further compromised, and now he may may go on to show symptoms of his other illnesses that are resistant to antibiotics. I believe this is why some fish just keep getting sick month after month despite many drug treatments. I think that this is what has been happening to @ poeticinjustices Betta.

 

I considered that there is definitely something wrong with his immune system. But he's been showing the exact same symptoms over and over and, for now, is healing.

Anyway I don't want to take this thread of topic but endlercollector I would LOVE to hear more of your thoughts on this as you seem really well informed. Perhaps on V's tail rot thread?
millca - I wish I had something helpful to offer but I am sorry for all of your troubles. Aquavetmeds.info is a portal where you can search local aquatic vets.

 

Okay next question:

Will boiling something remove any cross contamination with TB? What's the best way to sterilize stuff if it has been in contact with a tank that had a fish suffer from TB?

I'm thinking of small tools I can't easily replace (small sieve, etc) which I need to boil or sterilize quickly.

But also want to know how I can clean out my python hoses once I've figured out what I'm going to do with my 29G tank and its inhabitants.

Any tips?

 

I found this wikipedia page about sterilization.

It mentions this under boiling:

Boiling in water for fifteen minutes will kill most vegetative bacteria and inactivate viruses, but boiling is ineffective against prions and many bacterial and fungal spores; therefore boiling is unsuitable for sterilization. However, since boiling does kill most vegetative microbes and viruses, it is useful for reducing viable levels if no better method is available. Boiling is a simple process, and is an option available to most people, requiring only water, enough heat, and a container that can withstand the heat; however, boiling can be hazardous and cumbersome.

Plus this wikI about Fish TB which mentions that the bacteria could not be grown above 98.6F (37C). Looks like temps 77-95F (25-35C) is where Fish TB flourishes.

Here's another which does say boiling for 10 minutes will help:

Treatments
There is no sure cure for Mycobacteriosis. Any treatment is long and expensive.

Suggested treatments
Kanamycin powder at 1/4 teaspoon per 75.7 Litres (20 US G.) and Isoniazid at one tablet per 37.9 Litres (10 US G.). You need to do a water change (25% minimum) every 3 days (important) and replace the amount of antibiotic removed. So if you did a 50% water change you add back a 50% dose. This regimen takes between 20–50 days.[6]

Kanamycin + Vitamin B6 for 30 days - See Article by Dr. Gary Aukes; Pharm D, Dr. Brian Aukes; PhD., and the staff of National Fish Pharmaceuticals

If antibiotics are not available then only removing, euthanasia and clean disposing of the sick fish and then use a UV light on the water can kill it and keep its numbers down.[7][8]
A combination of antibiotics (e.g. doxycycline and minocycline) has been used to treat high “value” fish, but with limited success.[9]

Special notes
Mycobacteriosis is a slow growing aerobic hardy bacteria (it takes 15 hours to double in population) that often seems to creep up on new fish owners unaware. It can take several months to show itself in a fish. Thus the usual one week quarantine provided by most distributors or fish shops is ineffective.
It has a thick protective coating which makes it unusually tough to kill with antibiotics or chemicals like malachite green or chlorine/bleach. 200ppm of Chlorine for 30 minutes is the recommend dosage to disinfect a bare tank and equipment.
Once the bacteria is established in a tank, it is hard to kill as it develops a thick protective bio-film and so whilst adding chemicals, to (for example a quarantine or breeding/fry raising) a tank will kill other types of bacteria, this bacteria will thrive in these clean conditions as there is now no other competing bacteria to fight over resources like fish waste or food particles. (See Competitive Exclusion).
This bacteria slows its growth, the hotter it gets. At 35-45°C (95-113°F) it stops growing. But does not die.
Boiling infected equipment for 10 minutes will eliminate it.
Treatments using Silver Proteinate (Protargol) are not effective.

So I'm going to boil the small tools I can't easily replace and maybe even use a chlorine dunk for 30 minutes afterwards. That will take care of the small things I can fit inside a pot to boil.

I still need tips on how to eventually deal with my python hose. Those are not cheap so I really do need to figure out what to do to clean it up.

 

Sorry for the numerous posts, but I figured this info may help others as I discover it online elsewhere.

Sometimes you will have a survivor or two. These fish are carriers of the disease and should not be exposed to any new fish. Treat with Kanamyacin (KanaPlex by Seachem). You can buy this online or at specialty fish stores. You also want to disinfect anything and everything that has come in contact with the water of the infected fish. Use Calcium Hypochlorite, found in pool stores to disinfect. Not even bleach or acid will kill this bacteria, so Calcium Hypochlorite is a MUST. Use it on the entire tank, the filters (let the filter run like normal for a day while using), nets, the surface around the tank, buckets, syphons, decorations, isolation tanks, and anything else that has been in contact with the water of the infected fish. This is an absolute must or the disease will reappear if you get new fish. The jestation period of this bacteria (Mycobacteriosis) can be anything from a day to 6 months depending on the immune system and stress level of the fish. So, if you cleaned the tank without Calcium Hypochlorite and didn't treat your survivors (if any) with KanaPlex, and you add new fish, you may not see a problem until 6 months later! But one thing is for certain if you have this deadly killer - It WILL rear its ugly head again if not dealt with properly! And the proper way to deal with this bug is as mentioned above.

Please use common sense - if you have any survivors, don't put Calcium Hypochlorite in there with them!!!!! Treat with KanaPlex instead! It would be best to do this in a smaller hospital (isolation) tank while disinfecting the tank where it all started with the Calcium Hypochlorite. Then when you remove the Calcium Hypochorite thoroughly from your tank, let the whole thing cycle just like you would a brand new aquarium for at least a week or two. Put your treated survior(s) back in there after that time period, and disinfect the isolation tank you used with Calcium Hypochlorite!

Looks like Calcium Hypochlorite is the way to go instead of Chlorox bleach.

 

The easiest way to sterilize is to put 70% isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) in a spray bottle. Put the small, non-porous objects in a container that is large enough to hold them in a single layer. Put on some gloves and spray everything well. Then turn all the objects over and spray again. Allow them to air dry. The rubbing alcohol will destroy the cell walls of all bacteria in about 10 minutes. Do not go for a very high percentage of rubbing alcohol as it will then evaporate too quickly to destroy the cell walls.

I would keep any survivors in permanent quarantine in an appropriately sized tank and not add more fish. I no longer do antibiotics because they do not work on drug resistant mycobacteria.

You can also just run things through your dishwasher. I don't worry about soap residue as the water at our place is very hard, and we've never had any problems.