Does my Dwarf Gourami have iridovirus?

Rgtx

Hey guys noticed my DG yesterday had stringy white poop when he was swimming around. Search online what that could be and mostly gather it could be intestinal parasites. He also appeared bloated but figure maybe he just ate alot. Later on that evening noticed he was unusually bloated then normal. Today after work I see him near the top just staying still and had a different view of him noticed how bloated he really was. After little research I'm guessing he might have the iridovirus that affects DG. I fed the fishes but he didn't eat, so I know something isn't right. I have another DG in the tank that is acting normally and no visible issues. Anyone here have experience these symptoms with there DG and is there anything I can do? What I found online basically said you can't save them if they are infected with the virus...Man I must say it's been tough time starting off this aquarium hobby.
 

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MacZ

That's not bloat, that's a sign of acute kidney failure. Also known as Dropsy. It's a symptom. Mostly from bacterial infections but also inner parasites, reduced immune response, and yes, also GIV.

I see no signs of GIV on the fish, would say it's stressed and has contracted a bacterial infection.

With a filled out emergency template, one can make up a plan.
 

Rgtx

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank? 75g
How long has the tank been running? 76 days
Does it have a filter? Tidal 75 and large sponge filter
Does it have a heater? Yes
What is the water temperature? 78
What is the entire stocking of this tank?
5 zebra danios
2 DG
1 redtail shark
6 false Julii cories
1 super red bristlenose
8 Cardinal tetras
Various snails, bladders, ramshorn and 2 assassin's
Maintenance
How often do you change the water? Every 2 weeks
How much of the water do you change? 40-45%
What do you use to treat your water? Seachem Prime
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? Yes

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? Added both DG on the 8th day of initial cycle
What do you use to test the water? Tetra strips and then api test
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:20
pH:8.0

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? Once a day occasionally twice a day
How much do you feed your fish? What they can consume in 3 or 4 mins
What brand of food do you feed your fish? Tetramin, hikari, new life spectrum
Do you feed frozen? Brine shrimp w spirulina and recently bloodworms, both san fran bay brand
Do you feed freeze-dried foods? Tetra bloodworms

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? 68 days
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? Yesterday March 16
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? Very bloated, lethargic, not eating and has white stringy poop
Have you started any treatment for the illness? No
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? No
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all? Bloated and lethargic, also not did not eat today

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
(Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now.
Fish is super bloated, lethargic and not eating. I believe it could be DG disease but not certain
 

Rgtx

Any suggestions on what to do?
 

MacZ

High volume waterchanges, humic substances (aka "tannins")... that's pretty much all you can do for the moment. As you would surely have noticed any signs of inner parasites this is most likely bacterial. Antibiotics won't work. They usually put heavy strain on the inner organs. Especially the kidneys, so using them could kill it.

I also noticed two things that might also have had influences.
This points to quite high hardness (GH). Gourami are softwater fish, kidney problems can occur in harder water.
and recently bloodworms
Bloodworms can have negative impact on fish health. Especially certain cichlids have problems, but I have also seen tetras and bettas reacting badly.

Ultimately there is another factor: Dwarf gourami are overbred and massproduced. Weak genetics and health are often a problem, even in pefect conditions.

It could be DIV and/or one/all of the above, or just time for this fish to pass to the other side. Sorry, that's all I can say from a distance.
 

Rgtx

Thanks for the suggestions, going to quarantine him in a bucket with some salt. At this point he looks pretty bad so will probably just do this for several days unless I see noticeable changes. I think it is dropsy just by doing more research online, and like you mentioned it is hard for them to come back from it.
 

Rgtx

Don't have any ial, just have api salt on hand. Will have to add ial and melafix to the list of stuff I need. When I went to grab the gourami,noticed he had laid down on the driftwood. I put him in the bucket and he's can't stay upright... It's worsening quickly.
 

DoubleDutch

I think it IS probably Iridovirus (Kidney Spleen necrosis)
 

MacZ

True, that's an option.
 

Rgtx

Just to have in hand when I come across a situation where I need an antibacterial med.

Have another question regarding adding salt to the qt tank. Got different answers online whether to use Epsom salt or aquarium salt to treat dropsy. I'm using the api salt, will that work?
 

cdwag29

No. Salt will not cure dropsy. Espom salt is used to relieve the fish of some swelling to make it more comfortable. Kanaplex is one of the better medications to fight drospy with.

Unfortunately, dropsy is almost always fatal. You would have to catch it within the first few hours of the fish suffering, at which stage the bloat is not visible. Even if you were to catch it, it usally makes a comeback and kills the fish later. When bloat is severe, your fish is almost as good as gone. I would consider euthinization as sad as it is.
 

Rgtx

No. Salt will not cure dropsy. Espom salt is used to relieve the fish of some swelling to make it more comfortable. Kanplex is one of the better medications to fight drospy with.

Unfortunately, dropsy is almsot always fatal. You would have to catch it within the first few hours of the fish suffering, at which stage the bloat is not visible. Even if you were to catch it, it usally makes a comeback and kills the fish later. When bloat is severe, your fish is almost as good as gone. I would consider euthinization as sad as it is.
K thanks for the clarification. I did consider euthanizing him before trying the qt but figured I'll try to see if he can pull through. I've lost quite a few fish in the 2 and half months of starting my tank which tbh I wasn't expecting since I thought I had done my due diligence. Worst part has been seeing them swim uncontrollably only to die a few hours later.
 

cdwag29

Sorry to hear about how unfortunate things have been for you. Loosing fish is rather depressing, but it is a part of the hobby. Sometimes fish just die for no apparent reason. I hope you have better luck in the future though.
 

MacZ

Just to have in hand when I come across a situation where I need an antibacterial med.
Maybe then take something that actually works.
Unfortunately, dropsy is almost always fatal. You would have to catch it within the first few hours of the fish suffering, at which stage the bloat is not visible. Even if you were to catch it, it usally makes a comeback and kills the fish later. When bloat is severe, your fish is almost as good as gone. I would consider euthinization as sad as it is.
Dropsy is not even remotely comparable to bloat. Bloat is just a collection of gasses within the gastrointestinal tract, blocked from being released. They usually can be remedied with a laxative (Frozen daphnia are excellent for that.)
Dropsy is the collection of liquid in the body cavity, released from the tissue caused by kidney failure. Once the organs start to fail there is little that can be done. Baths in epsom salt use osmotic pressure to draw some liquid out. Only helps relieve the pressure inside, often comes much too late.
Kanaplex is one of the better medications to fight drospy with.
Which is an antibiotic, which will at this stage rather kill the fish. Antibiotics are an absolute last resort.
I've lost quite a few fish in the 2 and half months of starting my tank which tbh I wasn't expecting since I thought I had done my due diligence.
Not your fault, in most countries (also here in Europe) reliable info resources are scarse. Many people end up on websites by companies and stores that live from selling fish and equipment. Marketing has made it impossible for people without knowledge to distinguish unbiased and up-to-date information from advise that is ultimately targeting a customer, not an animal handler regurgitating outdated information. Also many store owners in non-chain stores have focused so much on selling stuff, they have missed a lot of interesting research and developments.
 

cdwag29

Yes I know dropsy and bloat are vastly different. I just used the word bloat to describe the swelling the fish experiences. My bad, should’ve phrased it better. And I agree medication would kill the fish at this point, I was just listing medication that could actually help with it, was not implying they should be treating with it.
 

Rgtx

Not your fault, in most countries (also here in Europe) reliable info resources are scarse. Many people end up on websites by companies and stores that live from selling fish and equipment. Marketing has made it impossible for people without knowledge to distinguish unbiased and up-to-date information from advise that is ultimately targeting a customer, not an animal handler regurgitating outdated information. Also many store owners in non-chain stores have focused so much on selling stuff, they have missed a lot of interesting research and developments.
Yes the info that can be found online is very conflicting. That has been very frustrating also dealing with this hobby. Hard to know what sources are telling you accurate information.
 

MacZ

Yes I know dropsy and bloat are vastly different. I just used the word bloat to describe the swelling the fish experiences. My bad, should’ve phrased it better.
"Swelling" would have been the correct term. But I know how it is, when a word escapes the mind. :D
And I agree medication would kill the fish at this point, I was just listing medication that could actually help with it, was not implying they should be treating with it.
Vendors | BSAVA Library

For you both. This list is worth a lot. It's UK specific but lists pretty much all globally available manufacturers and preparations. It also contains the active ingredients for each med, which is extremely helpful to research whether any recommended med is even feasable to work. I have seen many people recommending stuff almost randomly, without sense. The list also marks safety details like invertebrate safety.
Yes the info that can be found online is very conflicting. That has been very frustrating also dealing with this hobby. Hard to know what sources are telling you accurate information.
To be honest: For info on fish diseases and active ingredients in meds Wikipedia is really not bad. For info on fish themselves (behaviour, needs, etc.) seriouslyfish and fishbase are pretty much unbeatable.
 

cdwag29

Thank you for the article! I’ll read it when I get a chance, I have tryouts very shortly and need to be going. Since you linked it, I’m wondering if kanaplex is not a medication to be reccomemding for dropsy? I have heard a few cases where it worked when caught early enough, so I assumed it was alright to reccomemd. Also, question. Drospy is caused by gram negative bacteria, yes?
 

MacZ

Thank you for the article!
It's not an article it's a list of meds with details.

Since you linked it, I’m wondering if kanaplex is not a medication to be reccomemding for dropsy? I have heard a few cases where it worked when caught early enough, so I assumed it was alright to reccomemd.
It's an antibiotic. And pretty much only anymore available over the counter in the US because there regulations have been sold out long ago. In Europe, Canada, many parts of South America and some countries in Asia you only get those with a prescription. And often even then vets hesitate to prescribe those. I would not be able to get any antibiotics for fish without spending hundreds of Euros and jumping several other hoops. By the time I get the med the fish are dead. Additionally for most diagnostic measures the fish in question would have to be killed anyways. This here might be interestint to you:
Hold the Antibiotics! Overuse and Resistance in the Aquarium Hobby | 453975 | Freshwater Fish Disease and Fish Health
Drospy is caused by gram negative bacteria, yes?
Dropsy can be caused by: Bacteria (gram positive and negative), inner parasites, too hard water, too high salinity, contaminated food, viral infections... Kidney failure is a symptom, not a disease itself.
 

cdwag29

Ah okay, I understand. I just went through the list and it was very informative, thank you. :D

As for dropsy, is it just better not to recommend anything other than salt to ease the swelling? By the time people catch it, I feel its always too late to do anything and euthnization is just a better option.
 

MacZ

As for dropsy, is it just better not to recommend anything other than salt to ease the swelling?
I usually recommend high volume waterchanges, lots of humic substances for softwater fish, salt for hardwater fish. Epsom salt baths are only worth a try when the cause has been identified as something other than bacteria.

By the time people catch it, I feel its always too late to do anything and euthnization is just a better option.
I would decide in the individual case.
 

cdwag29

Alrighty, I think I finally understand. Thank you for everything, sorry for rambiling and asking so many questions!
 

MacZ

Don't apologize if you learned something.
 

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