does brackish water need protien skimmer?

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steed1172

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just as title says... oh and side question.. can liverock 'live' in brackish?
 

thequietman44

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As far as I know, brackish tanks are the same as freshwater tanks except for the salt, so you shouldn't need one. I have a brackish tank with fiddler crabs and I don't have one .
 
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steed1172

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crabbies!!.... meh, i wanted to do bumble bee gobys and flounders..
 

sirdarksol

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As far as I know, there is no live rock that lives in brackish water. As such, you don't need a protein skimmer for brackish tanks.
 
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steed1172

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so only only needs a protein skimmer if there is LR? now i just really lost...
 

sirdarksol

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As I understand it, the majority of the garbage that the skimmer pulls out is rotting protein generated by the myriad bits of life that grow in the live rock.
 
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steed1172

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interesting...so if one was to set up a Saltwater without LR they wouldn't NEED a protein skimmer?....or would the filter media become "live media" and produce the same effect?
 

sirdarksol

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steed1172 said:
interesting...so if one was to set up a Saltwater without LR they wouldn't NEED a protein skimmer?....or would the filter media become "live media" and produce the same effect?
Okay. Out of my depth here. I've never looked into fish-only Saltwater aquaria, as the live rock is such an excellent filter. So I'm not sure.

However, with regards to brackish, I know that I haven't had the nitrate issues that people with saltwater aquaria sans skimmer have had.
 
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steed1172

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owell.. lol thanks for the info!
 

funkman262

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I'm pretty sure that any tank, whether freshwater, brackish or saltwater, will produce organics. But from what I understand, protein skimmers only work in saltwater tanks because the high salinity which also makes the water more dense allows for the surface tension that's needed in the bubbles in order for the large organics molecules to adsorb to them. This is an interesting topic and I hope some more people give their .02
 

sirdarksol

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funkman262 said:
I'm pretty sure that any tank, whether freshwater, brackish or saltwater, will produce organics. But from what I understand, protein skimmers only work in saltwater tanks because the high salinity which also makes the water more dense allows for the surface tension that's needed in the bubbles in order for the large organics molecules to adsorb to them. This is an interesting topic and I hope some more people give their .02
Cool info. That answers half of the issue. The other half being; why would a saltwater tank produce more organic bits than a freshwater tank? With the addition of live rock, it makes sense to me, but without, I just can't see what would cause that.

Also, because of this thread, I did some looking around, and have found a number of people who have said that they run both fish-only and reef tanks without skimmers. The explanation for the reef tanks working was that they had deep sand beds that were home to filter feeders that do the same job the skimmer would do. There was no explanation of how the fish-only tanks were working, though.
 
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steed1172

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same situation? deep sand?..

EDIT.. live sand, live rock..?
 

Naeusu

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People with fish only tanks tend to go "bare bottom" without any substrate. This allows them to suck the waste out manually whenever a water change is done so that the nitrates won't be produced. A lot of reefers will also do this to improve water quality. DSB also has it's only faults :X
 

Stang Man

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Skimmers only will work in salt water with salinity of 1.016 and above will not work in fresh or brackish the salt is what makes the water bubbleize to a perfect bubble which is the smallest bubble that you can get for a fractionator to perform the best . If you hook up a skimmer in a fresh water tank only creates large bubbles and does nothing for fractionating. This is because the gravity of salt added to water has a higher velosity than fresh when salt is added the gravity of force is greater and this is how the skimmers work. Pretty cool Huh!!!! Go SALTIE!!!! Lol What are you going with in brackish Africans?
 
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steed1172

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3rd post... bumble bee gobies and flounders....

and how would salt change velocity?... maybe you meant density? as air is already lighter then water, but with extra preasure/spec gravity/salinity..(also salt having affect directly on the oxygen) causing the bubbles to rise faster then they can form in larger bubbles... larger bubbles however will work.. but smaller bubbles usually are better due to smaller bubbles can be made faster, and each carry separate particles..

now Saltwater will retain oxygen better Freshwater making it over all easier to use in Saltwater... as there ARE Freshwater protein skimmers (industrial mainly...) and is VERY possible to get a protein skimmer to 'work' on a Freshwater.. now it won't do much being there wouldn't be as much nitrate..

but the question really has been answered, it is not a necessity for a brackish setup, as it is usually for fully marine.

DSB fualt being... pockets of harmful gasses? aswell as nitrogen pockets
 

funkman262

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steed1172 said:
but smaller bubbles usually are better due to smaller bubbles can be made faster, and each carry separate particles..
The reason we need tiny bubbles is because they remain in water much longer than large bubbles which is important because the organics need time to adsorb to the bubbles. It's the same reason some protein skimmers are 6 feet tall.

steed1172 said:
DSB fualt being... pockets of harmful gasses? aswell as nitrogen pockets
It's been a while since I looked into it, but I remember there are some strict rules to properly keeping a deep sand bed. Just like how freshwater tanks with sand require stirring so we may do it manually or just add some malaysian trumpet snails, the same is true for saltwater. There are certain organisms that are required in order to make it work.
 

Stang Man

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I think you have the whole picture although the velosity and density make the salt water to fractionate because of the gravity of salt. Does not have much effect on oxygen unless using a co2 canister filled with oxygen. In salt water the return of water to a sump or filter causes gases the return of this water to a sump or filter preferably a sump in this matter releases gases caused by the return that this is where the the gases are released to go back into the tank with no oxygen gases to be returned to the tank.
 
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steed1172

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that would make sure an interesting experiment....

oh and when cycling a Saltwater tank you don't use/need the skimmer right?
 

Stang Man

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That is not true the skimmer will help pull detritus from water and as well as un wanted algae's. It also helps with keeping water clean to a certain point till nitrites cycle then nitrates start.
 

Cordi

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steed1172 said:
but the question really has been answered, it is not a necessity for a brackish setup, as it is usually for fully marine.
Skimmers remove protine from water before it breaks down causing your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to take a hit (caused from foods, fish waste, other decaying matter).

Typical protine skimmers don't work well in fresh water aquariums (although it does still work - just not well) due to the low density of the water, but one thing everyone has missed is what salinity you're going to be using.

since brackish water is normaly classified as anything from 1.001 - 1.020, using a protine skimmer will help at higher salinity.

Cordi
 
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