Disinfecting Household Of Fish Tb (mycobacterium Marinum)

hello. I had a fish TB outbreak and i'm currently attempting to disinfect my HOUSEHOLD not my aquarium supplies, as I already threw them all out. I euthanized my fish and already threw out all my aquariums and all fish related supplies. however, I still have expensive wooden fish tank stands that I would like to disinfect and keep, as well as the floors and surfaces that have been exposed to tank water. I want to disinfect household surfaces because I have other animals in the house, and mycobacterium marinum is a zootonic disease that has recorded cases of infecting lizards and even a hedgehog being housed in an aquarium once exposed to fish TB.

according to the link below, "benzyl-4-chlorophenol/phenylphenol" (Lysol) and ethyl alcohol at concentrations of 50 and 70% effectively eliminate mycobacterium marinum. I was wondering if this means any Lysol spray cans or wipes will do the trick? I already own 70% ethyl alcohol which I will use on damp paper towels to wipe down surfaces if necessary. however I have heard from other sources that only phenol and iodine solutions are effective, so I am wondering what the best chemical is?

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=11257&meta=Generic&catId=32358&id=3865288

also one final concern. I used to wipe my hands dry on bathtowels after cleaning tanks, and i'm sure some of my clothing has come in contact with tank water as well. we do not use any bleach products or disinfectants in our laundry at my house and I was wondering if its possible the TB has residually spread onto all of my clothing and throughout the washing machine because of this? in which case I am willing to run the machine and bathtowels on a cycle of bleach and high temperatures to eradicate any possible contamination.

 

Relax its only a bacteria. It can cause skin sores at its worse so its totally different.
https://healthstartsinthekitchen.com/all-natural-cleaning-and-disinfecting-with-peroxide/

https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/peroxide-how-to.382067/#post-3926127

 

Relax its only a bacteria. It can cause skin sores at its worse so its totally different.
https://healthstartsinthekitchen.com/all-natural-cleaning-and-disinfecting-with-peroxide/

https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/peroxide-how-to.382067/#post-3926127

I'm not really concerned with my own health but rather my other animals in the house.

 

I totally agree with David1978. I'm so sorry about the panic you're experiencing. An open wound is required to contract
marinum. Worst case scenario, a prescription of antibiotics from the doctor. I've been in hobby for many years and associate with several other longtime fishkeepers. No one I know has ever contracted Marinum.
There really is no reason for an OCD sterilization of your house & washing machine.
If something like this happens to you again check in with the forum first. Maybe someone can help.

 

So I'm a microbiologist and we test/handle samples positive for Mycobacterium species. No one, including our pets, has ever contracted any Mycobacterium related illness from handling these samples or cultures of it that we've grown in the lab.

At work, we clean all surfaces with 70% or straight regular lysol solution followed by 70% denatured ethanol. We always use paper towels and our Lysol and denatured come from Cost Co I think, so nothing special. As for our cloths, I don't think anyone at work does anything special with them. Just wash them like normal laundry.

I understand your pain and panic, but I think you and your pets should be fine.

PS: basic hygiene and cleaning practices go a long way. Basic plan old soap (detergents) are great, there is no need for all this anti-bacterial stuff (unless you like me work in a lab).

 

It shouldn't ever be referred to as Fish TB and any website that uses that term should be added to your firewall blocklist.

Mycobacterium marinum and similar are NTMs (nontuberculous mycobacterium) that don't cause tuberculosis!

They're ubiquitous in water and you may even find low levels in tap water.

Eliminating them is next to impossible and once you refill the sanitized (or new) tank or buy new fish/plants you're going to reintroduce it anyway.

 

So I'm a microbiologist and we test/handle samples positive for Mycobacterium species. No one, including our pets, has ever contracted any Mycobacterium related illness from handling these samples or cultures of it that we've grown in the lab.

At work, we clean all surfaces with 70% or straight regular lysol solution followed by 70% denatured ethanol. We always use paper towels and our Lysol and denatured come from Cost Co I think, so nothing special. As for our cloths, I don't think anyone at work does anything special with them. Just wash them like normal laundry.

I understand your pain and panic, but I think you and your pets should be fine.

PS: basic hygiene and cleaning practices go a long way. Basic plan old soap (detergents) are great, there is no need for all this anti-bacterial stuff (unless you like me work in a lab).

so maybe i'm just being paranoid. i'm still going to wipe down my entire room just to be safe. I am concerned because there was a case where 9 egyptian spiny tailed lizards were housed in a tank (completely dry) once used for fish, and all 9 contracted and died of mycobacterium marinum. there was another case where a hedgehog being sold at a pet shop had died of it from being housed in a fish tank previously used for fish with TB as well. so I am under the impression that every surface my tank water has come in contact with is not safe. that is why I was freaking out, but maybe i'm overreacting.

by the way, you said 70% lysol or "regular". is there a difference between the two? I just finished nuking my bathroom tiles with lysol right now but i'm willing to go back and do it with 70% solution if that's available in most stores

 

so maybe i'm just being paranoid. i'm still going to wipe down my entire room just to be safe. I am concerned because there was a case where 9 egyptian spiny tailed lizards were housed in a tank (completely dry) once used for fish, and all 9 contracted and died of mycobacterium marinum. there was another case where a hedgehog being sold at a pet shop had died of it from being housed in a fish tank previously used for fish with TB as well. so I am under the impression that every surface my tank water has come in contact with is not safe. that is why I was freaking out, but maybe i'm overreacting.

by the way, you said 70% lysol or "regular". is there a difference between the two? I just finished nuking my bathroom tiles with lysol right now but i'm willing to go back and do it with 70% solution if that's available in most stores

Sorry I meant undiluted or diluted 70% of regular Lysol. When we we dilute our Lysol and ethanol, we just up tap water. I never bought prediluted stuff before. Didn't know that you could to be honest.

 

Sorry I meant undiluted or diluted 70% of regular Lysol. When we we dilute our Lysol and ethanol, we just up tap water. I never bought prediluted stuff before. Didn't know that you could to be honest.

oh okay thank you. so would lysol in spray cans work as an overall safety measure? I'm thinking after ive wiped down everything to give the whole room a rough spray with this stuff:

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detai...Vj56fCh3vlQ0sEAQYAiABEgIxXPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

It also is really sensitive to UV light. UV sterilizers for equipment are not that expensive , and a UV sterilizer in your filter or tank goes a long way towards eliminating this in the future.

You can look into handheld UV sterilizers for helping in the room cleanse, but I'd go with the Lysol recommended above.

Here is a great article by Diane Walsted about her personal experiences, and the way it was brought under control:


Two pieces of her article are particularly interesting:
"Ironically, conscientious fish breeders greatly increase the chances of MB by routinely disinfecting tanks. NTM are much more resistant to most chemicals (antibiotics, bleaches, detergents, etc.) than other bacteria. For example, NTM are equally sensitive to ozone and UV, but they are about 10 to100 times more resistant to chlorine and chloramine than the ordinary bacterium Escherichia coli (LeChevallier 2004)." and
"NTM survive and thrive in nutrient-poor (i.e., “clean”) environments that starve ordinary bacteria. Steinert et al. (1998) showed this experimentally when they placed E. coli and an NTM (i.e., M. avium) in separate containers of starvation media (no nutrients). After 10 days the M. avium population increased 72-fold while the E. coli population decreased 20-fold. Under nutrient-rich conditions, the results would be quite different; on rich lab media, E. colI has a population doubling time of 20 minutes, while M. aviumrequires a full 15 hours. This means that after 15 hours on rich growth media, a single M. aviumbacterium has divided into two bacteria. Meanwhile, E. coli has divided every 20 minutes (or 45 times) and theoretically increased its population from one bacterium to about 40 trillion bacteria!"

Which means that maintaining through disinfection via chemicals (like labs do) DOES NOT WORK. Investing in a UV sterilizer or a autoclave would help keep your tanks/equipment free, but won't do anything for the room in general.

 

It also is really sensitive to UV light. UV sterilizers for equipment are not that expensive , and a UV sterilizer in your filter or tank goes a long way towards eliminating this in the future.

You can look into handheld UV sterilizers for helping in the room cleanse, but I'd go with the Lysol recommended above.

Here is a great article by Diane Walsted about her personal experiences, and the way it was brought under control:

I actually just read this article last night. she says some confusing stuff- that disinfectants only STRENGTHEN myco? I am done with fish keeping for now, so UV sterilizers are irrelevant to my situation. however I do have a reptile in the house.
i'm not sure why she's saying disinfectants strengthen TB instead of kill them. I cannot find any evidence to back her statement. but I should be okay with continuing the lysol and ethyl alcohol wipedown, correct?

 

I just read this article and I agree there is some strange wording in there and I plan on seeing if I can read her reference materials to get some clarity.

Based on my reading so far and my science background, I don't see why you could have fish again. I would however have a uv set up like the author described. Done correctly, very little can survive uv light.

I would continue with the Lysol and ethanol cleaning. Based on your first post you've gotten ride of all your contaminated equipment, so the main source of Mycobacterium is gone.

I'd also move your reptile if it was in the same room as the tank, and clean it before the move.

Another great way to clean stuff, expecally plastics: Warm soapy water, a cap full of bleach mixed about then rinsed out, and finally allows to sit in direct sunlight for as long as possible (this is how I clean my cat's littler box).

 

I just read this article and I agree there is some strange wording in there and I plan on seeing if I can read her reference materials to get some clarity.

Based on my reading so far and my science background, I don't see why you could have fish again. I would however have a uv set up like the author described. Done correctly, very little can survive uv light.

I would continue with the Lysol and ethanol cleaning. Based on your first post you've gotten ride of all your contaminated equipment, so the main source of Mycobacterium is gone.

I'd also move your reptile if it was in the same room as the tank, and clean it before the move.

Another great way to clean stuff, expecally plastics: Warm soapy water, a cap full of bleach mixed about then rinsed out, and finally allows to sit in direct sunlight for as long as possible (this is how I clean my cat's littler box).

ok thank you. did you mean you don't see why I couldn't have fish again? I assume that was a typo, haha

also did you mean I should move my reptile out of the room and clean the room before I move him back in?

 

It also is really sensitive to UV light. UV sterilizers for equipment are not that expensive , and a UV sterilizer in your filter or tank goes a long way towards eliminating this in the future.

You can look into handheld UV sterilizers for helping in the room cleanse, but I'd go with the Lysol recommended above.

Here is a great article by Diane Walsted about her personal experiences, and the way it was brought under control:


Two pieces of her article are particularly interesting:
"Ironically, conscientious fish breeders greatly increase the chances of MB by routinely disinfecting tanks. NTM are much more resistant to most chemicals (antibiotics, bleaches, detergents, etc.) than other bacteria. For example, NTM are equally sensitive to ozone and UV, but they are about 10 to100 times more resistant to chlorine and chloramine than the ordinary bacterium Escherichia coli (LeChevallier 2004)." and
"NTM survive and thrive in nutrient-poor (i.e., “clean”) environments that starve ordinary bacteria. Steinert et al. (1998) showed this experimentally when they placed E. coli and an NTM (i.e., M. avium) in separate containers of starvation media (no nutrients). After 10 days the M. avium population increased 72-fold while the E. coli population decreased 20-fold. Under nutrient-rich conditions, the results would be quite different; on rich lab media, E. colI has a population doubling time of 20 minutes, while M. aviumrequires a full 15 hours. This means that after 15 hours on rich growth media, a single M. aviumbacterium has divided into two bacteria. Meanwhile, E. coli has divided every 20 minutes (or 45 times) and theoretically increased its population from one bacterium to about 40 trillion bacteria!"

Which means that maintaining through disinfection via chemicals (like labs do) DOES NOT WORK. Investing in a UV sterilizer or a autoclave would help keep your tanks/equipment free, but won't do anything for the room in general.

so what does this even mean? there have been several lab tests done on disinfectants on mycobacterium marinum. ethanol and lysol were proven to eradicate all traces of the bacteria within 1 minute of contact time. this woman has absolutely no sources backing her claim that disinfectants only strengthen TB. and are you implying that there is literally no way to remove the bacteria from dry surfaces? that doesn't make any sense at all

 

so what does this even mean? there have been several lab tests done on disinfectants on mycobacterium marinum. ethanol and lysol were proven to eradicate all traces of the bacteria within 1 minute of contact time. this woman has absolutely no sources backing her claim that disinfectants only strengthen TB. and are you implying that there is literally no way to remove the bacteria from dry surfaces? that doesn't make any sense at all

I don't work on M. marinum but I do run a containment level 3 M. tuberculosis lab and frequently use other mycobacterium such as bovis and smegatis. 1 minute contact time with relevant disinfectants is usually not sufficient to kill most mycobacterium. Most chlorine based disinfectants will kill mycobacterium but require 10-15 minute contact time, the really active stuff which kills in a minute or less is usually 2 component systems that require activation immediately before use such as tristel duo.

 

ok thank you. did you mean you don't see why I couldn't have fish again? I assume that was a typo, haha

also did you mean I should move my reptile out of the room and clean the room before I move him back in?

Ya sorry about that, was typing on my phone and trying to avoid a creep at the bus stop. Yes I think you should be able have fish again.

I don't know anything about keeping reptiles, but if you are still worried about them that's what I'd do.

 

so what does this even mean? there have been several lab tests done on disinfectants on mycobacterium marinum. ethanol and lysol were proven to eradicate all traces of the bacteria within 1 minute of contact time. this woman has absolutely no sources backing her claim that disinfectants only strengthen TB. and are you implying that there is literally no way to remove the bacteria from dry surfaces? that doesn't make any sense at all

It's not that disinfectants "strengthen" MB, it's that they're slightly more resistant to them than many of the other bacteria out there, so if a lab has disinfection processes--but not a THROUGH processes--MB has a higher likelihood of surviving and without its competition will quickly replicate out of control. In part because it doesn't require as many resources to get re-established as other bacteria do. If you read the article, it also stresses that this applies to nontuberculous mycobacteria, or the strains that live outside of hosts on the surfaces of aquariums, decor, substrate, equipment, etc. They don't cause disease in fish or other animals at the same rates as the tuberculous mycobateria which live inside hosts and cannot survive long without them, but can if the fish/human is immune suppressed, stressed, or if the MB is able to replicate to a high enough concentration. So M. tuberculosis and M. leprae, ect, are more vulnerable to cleansing agents, like lysol and bleach, because they rarely exist outside of a host. M. marinum, M. avium, etc, on the other hand have a lot more exposure to the doses of antibiotics, antimicrobials and cleaning chemicals as used in public pools, fish growing operations and households, and so have developed to be more resistant.

It's not to say that you can't use lysol and/or bleach to cleanse everything and ensure the MB is dead-dead. Just that a quick wipe-down might not be sufficient to kill M. marinum, if you ended up with a resistant strain.

 

It's not that disinfectants "strengthen" MB, it's that they're slightly more resistant to them than many of the other bacteria out there, so if a lab has disinfection processes--but not a THROUGH processes--MB has a higher likelihood of surviving and without its competition will quickly replicate out of control. In part because it doesn't require as many resources to get re-established as other bacteria do. If you read the article, it also stresses that this applies to nontuberculous mycobacteria, or the strains that live outside of hosts on the surfaces of aquariums, decor, substrate, equipment, etc. They don't cause disease in fish or other animals at the same rates as the tuberculous mycobateria which live inside hosts and cannot survive long without them, but can if the fish/human is immune suppressed, stressed, or if the MB is able to replicate to a high enough concentration. So M. tuberculosis and M. leprae, ect, are more vulnerable to cleansing agents, like lysol and bleach, because they rarely exist outside of a host. M. marinum, M. avium, etc, on the other hand have a lot more exposure to the doses of antibiotics, antimicrobials and cleaning chemicals as used in public pools, fish growing operations and households, and so have developed to be more resistant.

It's not to say that you can't use lysol and/or bleach to cleanse everything and ensure the MB is dead-dead. Just that a quick wipe-down might not be sufficient to kill M. marinum, if you ended up with a resistant strain.

that makes sense, but what exactly am I supposed to do beyond wiping down everything I own with ethynol and lysol? i've nuked all floor areas that were near the fish tank, stands, sinks, faucets, and walls with ethynol. i've wiped down every surface that I might have touched with unwashed hands after water changes with lysol wipes. and then I double checked by lysol spritzing and wiping down all of these surfaces again. i'm not sure what else I can really do at this point. my family and girlfriend are looking at me like i'm crazy. i've beyond nuked my room. you're telling me this isn't enough?

here are a list of sources that say exposure to ethynol/lysol killed all traces of m. marinum within 1 minute of contact time:
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=11257&meta=Generic&catId=32358&id=3865288
https://www.tandfonline.com/action/cookieAbsent
https://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/20...No.-4706-Mycobacterial-Infections-of-Fish.pdf

I am, however, concerned about clothing and bath towels. I would often wipe my hands after doing a water change with my bath towel, and I have this paranoid feeling that the MB is all over my clothes and washing machine now.