Day 4 fish in cycle using TSS+

I have a 10 gallon top fin tank. Substrate: half gravel/half sand. Live plants: Java fern, moneywart, salvinia minima. Elite mini underwater filter, 50 watt auomii underwater heater. 2 male fancy tail guppies in.
dosed Seachem Prime on Monday. Added TSS+ on Wednesday and fish about 30 minutes after.
You will see that I didn’t fill to the top of the aquarium during set up and this is because I was originally planning on adding 4 African Dwarf Frogs (there’s a different post on my circumstances from yesterday)
My new question (and I promise - I’ve looked through all the TSS questions/threads before I wrote this!) I have lost a bit more water than shown in the photo due to evaporation. Because I used TSS+ this Wednesday, can I add Prime treated water to fill up the tank to the top? Or, should I wait the full 7 days to top up?
i am asking because in numerous threads, I am reading - “wait at least 7 days to do a water change to let the TSS settle in”. Other threads say do absolutely nothing for 14 days, which perhaps I am wrongly assuming includes topping up water levels with Prime treated water.
I would love some help on this!
Thanks so much in advance!

 

Theoretically I can't imagine a reason why you can't top up the water.

Prime allegedly detoxifies ammonia and nitrite, but does not make it unavailable to nitrifiers - or at least that is the case for EVERY other bottled bac product on the market. None cautions against using Prime, and indeed from my personal experience and experience of others, Prime has no issues with nitrifiers.

In fact, it makes no sense - after all, if we think about it - would it not be the case that every time we do a water change in an established aquarium we would crash the cycle? Prime allegedly is able to lock ammonia and nitrite for 48 hours, so that would have meant we would have made any ammonia produced unavailable for the nitrifiers and so each time a water change or top up is done with water dosed with Prime, we'd have to see ammonia. But we don't.

I don't know if there is something specific with TSS that makes it a specific issue, though if I am not wrong TSS does claim it is because Prime would make ammonia not available for their nitrifiers. Perhaps it is something specific with their nitrifiers, but unlikely to be the case because obviously afterwards we still use Prime once a tank has been established with TSS. So that's not it.

Maybe it interferes with something else in TSS.

Honestly I can't say for certain hence I am hesitant, but eh if it was me I'd top up with dechlorinated water, and do water changes as needed because it is a fish-in cycle, yeah. I'd disregard TSS' instructions in this case. There's a lot of instructions specific to TSS that I find odd.

 

Just put some treated water in a container and let it sit out for 24 hours before adding it to the tank.

 

I finshed my no fish cycle with prime and it was good for me. 4 weeks in after seeding with used filter media my ammonia was zero before 24 hours while dosing 2 ppm. But my nitrites stayed at 1. I dosed prime and put a few tetras in and every 2 days I checked water and dosed prime and within a week my nitrites were zero and nitrates were 10. Did a good water change added a few more fish and never had a problem.

 

You can add water. Just don't remove any. The prime won't interfere.

 

You can add water. Just don't remove any. The prime won't interfere.

Perfect. Thank you!

Theoretically I can't imagine a reason why you can't top up the water.

Prime allegedly detoxifies ammonia and nitrite, but does not make it unavailable to nitrifiers - or at least that is the case for EVERY other bottled bac product on the market. None cautions against using Prime, and indeed from my personal experience and experience of others, Prime has no issues with nitrifiers.

In fact, it makes no sense - after all, if we think about it - would it not be the case that every time we do a water change in an established aquarium we would crash the cycle? Prime allegedly is able to lock ammonia and nitrite for 48 hours, so that would have meant we would have made any ammonia produced unavailable for the nitrifiers and so each time a water change or top up is done with water dosed with Prime, we'd have to see ammonia. But we don't.

I don't know if there is something specific with TSS that makes it a specific issue, though if I am not wrong TSS does claim it is because Prime would make ammonia not available for their nitrifiers. Perhaps it is something specific with their nitrifiers, but unlikely to be the case because obviously afterwards we still use Prime once a tank has been established with TSS. So that's not it.

Maybe it interferes with something else in TSS.

Honestly I can't say for certain hence I am hesitant, but eh if it was me I'd top up with dechlorinated water, and do water changes as needed because it is a fish-in cycle, yeah. I'd disregard TSS' instructions in this case. There's a lot of instructions specific to TSS that I find odd.

Thank you so much for this. There is so much to know and I have to wonder before the advent of all these products how anybody kept fish before! I’ve never been great at chemistry, and I feel like a mad scientist with all my vials and bottles

 

Day 6 progress!!! (I think???)
Last night I added water spangles and mini water lettuce as floaters to my tank from a lady who breeds guppies. She said she rubbed the roots in an old filter she was about to throw out. I set out a little 1 gallon pail, added 1cc Prime and let it sit out overnight. Mid morning today I added the treated water to top up my water level and used my little Turkey baster to clean up some uneaten food.
I just tested my tank with my API kit and have the following: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 10ppm nitrates. I seem to have misplaced my low level pH bottle somehow But my hard is reading at 7.4. I had some strips (I know are crapola for most things but I figure could t really screw up pH too badly) and my low level pH is coming right in at 7.
Am I getting close to cycled??? Or did adding the wee bit of Prime level everything back off ya think??
the boys are appearing very happy. Inquisitive little things, aren’t they? They come right up to the the glass to look at me when I go near and do this little fan dance with each other then pop off to the plants. (Can you tell I’m smitten?)

 

Day 6 progress!!! (I think???)
Last night I added water spangles and mini water lettuce as floaters to my tank from a lady who breeds guppies. She said she rubbed the roots in an old filter she was about to throw out. I set out a little 1 gallon pail, added 1cc Prime and let it sit out overnight. Mid morning today I added the treated water to top up my water level and used my little Turkey baster to clean up some uneaten food.
I just tested my tank with my API kit and have the following: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 10ppm nitrates. I seem to have misplaced my low level pH bottle somehow But my hard is reading at 7.4. I had some strips (I know are crapola for most things but I figure could t really screw up pH too badly) and my low level pH is coming right in at 7.
Am I getting close to cycled??? Or did adding the wee bit of Prime level everything back off ya think??
the boys are appearing very happy. Inquisitive little things, aren’t they? They come right up to the the glass to look at me when I go near and do this little fan dance with each other then pop off to the plants. (Can you tell I’m smitten?)

Sounds like your tank is cycled for your current stocking.

Just an fyi, Prime may alter your readings slightly, but does not actually remove ammonia and nitrite so if you have them, even if you dose Prime you’d still read them. If you read zero then well, it’s zero, whether you dosed Prime or not.

 

This is what I thought, but I didn’t want to get my hopes too up! Thank you for replying!
now that I am cycled for the two guppies, am I safe to add 4 African dwarf frogs? I am having them shipped from a breeder so they could be here ina few days or a week. Should I grab some more TSS+ to do this? If adding the 4 frogs would be too much, I’m still luckily in a position to change my order if need be - with the cost of shipping I was just trying to get the best bang for my buck, so to speak.

 

You only grow a bacteria colony large enough to handle your bioload, so adding the 4 frogs would increase your bioload. I've never kept frogs, so I don't know what their bioload is but I would expect it to be enough to cause you to experience a spike in ammonia and possibly nitrites, So if it were me, I would add a bottle of TSS when you add the frog to the tank.

 

Like jdhef, I've never kept frogs.

But I'd probably hesitate stocking 4 of them all at once after cycling with 2 guppies. African dwarf frogs can be sensitive to water conditions? Lucy?

Because I don't use TSS, my best suggestion would be a slower stocking plan for your tank rather than all 4 at once. And after you stock more (of anything), test ammonia and nitrites daily for a week or so.

 

Hi! Welcome to FishLore!!

Yeah, I'd wait a bit for the bacteria to get more established before adding the frogs. Unlike fish they absorb toxins through their skin which makes them vulnerable to any possible spikes that might occur with the additional bio-load.

 

Like jdhef, I've never kept frogs.

But I'd probably hesitate stocking 4 of them all at once after cycling with 2 guppies. African dwarf frogs can be sensitive to water conditions? Lucy?

Because I don't use TSS, my best suggestion would be a slower stocking plan for your tank rather than all 4 at once. And after you stock more (of anything), test ammonia and nitrites daily for a week or so.

Yes, they are quite sensitive from what I’ve read and experienced this far. I’ve altered my order to only ship 2 as opposed to 4. I just grabbed a new bottle of TSS+ “just in case”. I’m still only 7 days in to the first TSS+ cycle, so I’ll just keep testing my water daily and if I see a spike in either ammonia or nitrites, do a water change. Prime. Then dose with new TSS+. I hope I’m on the right track!

Hi! Welcome to FishLore!!

Yeah, I'd wait a bit for the bacteria to get more established before adding the frogs. Unlike fish they absorb toxins through their skin which makes them vulnerable to any possible spikes that might occur with the additional bio-load.

Thanks for your reply Lucy! I’ve poured over all your frog articles like a bible!

 

Yes, they are quite sensitive from what I’ve read and experienced this far. I’ve altered my order to only ship 2 as opposed to 4. I just grabbed a new bottle of TSS+ “just in case”. I’m still only 7 days in to the first TSS+ cycle, so I’ll just keep testing my water daily and if I see a spike in either ammonia or nitrites, do a water change. Prime. Then dose with new TSS+. I hope I’m on the right track!

My best advice. . . Follow the advice of Lucy. She knows her frogs!

 

Thanks for your reply Lucy! I’ve poured over all your frog articles like a bible!

Oh dear, don't take my word for gospel. I'm just a hobbyist like everyone else.

Good luck & post pics of your webbed cuties when they come in!

 

Okay - getting nervous. Day 8 after adding TSS+ Todays readings are as follows: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, between the 10 and 20 ppm in nitrates. Still good??

 

Okay - getting nervous. Day 8 after adding TSS+ Todays readings are as follows: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, between the 10 and 20 ppm in nitrates. Still good??

That's great! That's what you want, and even better is that you are seeing an increase in nitrates from last time, so that indicates that it is via nitrification that ammonia is being processed, so awesome!

 

That's great! That's what you want, and even better is that you are seeing an increase in nitrates from last time, so that indicates that it is via nitrification that ammonia is being processed, so awesome!

Whew. Thank you so very much for the quick reply and confirming this for me! I always get confused b/w nitrite and nitrate so admittedly I had a little panic moment there.

 

Whew. Thank you so very much for the quick reply and confirming this for me! I always get confused b/w nitrite and nitrate so admittedly I had a little panic moment there.

Understandable. ^_^

 

Okay - getting nervous. Day 8 after adding TSS+ Todays readings are as follows: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, between the 10 and 20 ppm in nitrates. Still good??

Still good, but remember. . .

Even if your tank is cycled, it’s only cycled to the bioload of 2 guppies.

So, stock slowly. Beyond that, don’t make this hobby more complicated than it needs to be. Have fun and enjoy it!

 

I hear ya. I imagine it will be more fun once I get going. I just hate the thought of any more creatures suffering at my hands - though I know that’s a chance we take with any animal we take on. Fears aside, I AM really enjoying the guppy puppies and the little world I’m trying to create for them. Am I the only one who imagines what it would be like to swim in there with them? Hahaha.
I really appreciate your advice and guidance - and everyone who replies to my monotonous pleas for help as a beginner. It is truly wonderful to have such a great community to be a part of!

 

I really appreciate your advice and guidance - and everyone who replies to my monotonous pleas for help as a beginner. It is truly wonderful to have such a great community to be a part of!

You’re welcome.

Some of us don’t admit it, but we were all beginners at one point. Depending on the subject, we still are.

Am I the only one who imagines what it would be like to swim in there with them? Hahaha.

Yes, probably.

 

Still plugging along thanks to all of you! On day 10, I got my order from my breeder for my vampire crabs and my frogs. Everything except for one frog arrived DOA. Totally heartbreaking. Essentially a packing issue with new staff at the facility. However, here is my lone survivor - a hunky big boy I’ve named Big Brutus. The water puppies are being a little jerky with him tonight but I’m thinking it’s because they got their first brine shrimp feed and everyone was INSANE! I did my first water change of about 30% today and added in Prime. I think I’ll top up a bit of the TSS+ tomorrow to make sure I haven’t taken away too much of the good bacteria I have going. My new water lettuce roots were looking really scummy and I saw quite a few snails starting to hatch so it seemed an opportune time. I hate that he’s alone but all in good time. Please keep your fingers crossed that he hangs in there!!

 

Sorry about the DOA, that's awful.
Keep an eye on Big Brutus. Make sure he gets his share of food with greedy fish in the tank.

 

Sorry about the DOA, that's awful.
Keep an eye on Big Brutus. Make sure he gets his share of food with greedy fish in the tank.

The guppies have decided they too enjoy the frog pellets. Greedy, greedy little water puppies!! I will say Brute has a good little belly going so I think he’s holding his own in the feeding department.
And much to my surprise - I found this little guy this morning!! He looks really little…like still a little remnant of tail?? I honestly don’t know where he came from!

 

You found a random frog? Did you have other frogs that mated over a month or so ago? Or is that Brute.
Maybe it's the angle but it looks emaciated.

 

You found a random frog? Did you have other frogs that mated over a month or so ago? Or is that Brute.
Maybe it's the angle but it looks emaciated.

No - no mating. I suspect he was a hanger on in some of the plants they sent me maybe? I had ordered 4. They sent me 2 tiny babies like him, Brutus and another guy. All but Brutus we’re DOA. I had rinsed the little sprigs of plant they came with in some tank water so I’m guessing that’s where he came from. He does look VERY skinny like the others that shipped. I haven’t seen him again since I took the photo definitely not Brutus, as he’s already about 1-1.5” long. I saw this tiny little thing pop up for air!

No - no mating. I suspect he was a hanger on in some of the plants they sent me maybe? I had ordered 4. They sent me 2 tiny babies like him, Brutus and another guy. All but Brutus we’re DOA. I had rinsed the little sprigs of plant they came with in some tank water so I’m guessing that’s where he came from. He does look VERY skinny like the others that shipped. I haven’t seen him again since I took the photo definitely not Brutus, as he’s already about 1-1.5” long. I saw this tiny little thing pop up for air!

Ya think I should fish him out if I find him again and move him to a little 2 gallon I have?

 

Wow, this is a first for me. Surprise fry, snails yes, but a frog! Woo! Bonus!

It definitely needs some food or is possible ill. Since it's a surprise, it might not have eaten.
I'd get some blunt nosed plastic tweezers and see if it'll eat a thawed frozen brine shrimp.

I don't think I'd move it at this point. I mean, if it's been there all along!

 

Okay now cycle question. Yesterday I did a little water change, vacuumed up some food etc off gravel, rinsed off my plants and added prime treated water to top off (1 cc for 1 gallon) Have I got that right?? I’m only treating the water I’m adding, not the whole tank, correct? Tonight everybody seems a bit lethargic so I tested my tank (API master kit) tonight’s readings
0-0.25 ammonia
0 nitrates
Between 10-20 ppm nitrates.
I added a cap of TSS+ to my water after the reading. Was that bad?? My reasoning was cautions about over using chemical dechlorinators.
Sorry. Typo. 0 nitrites.