Daily Death & Acclimation

Cazrea

Tank
What is the water volume of the tank?
5 Gallons

How long has the tank been running?
It's been running for almost 2 years. It's a guppy grow-out tank; once they hit juvie size, I move in the best 3 of them in there until they're bigger and then move the one I picked onto solo 5 gallon tanks beside them to groom for show. When I got the shrimp, this tank still had 2 guppies (I rarely keep my tanks without stock so I don't have to cycle filters again).

Does it have a filter?
Yes - Modified Sponge (I added an airstone in it)

Does it have a heater?
No, I'm in a tropical country with average temps of 32 C indoors. I have airconditioning to keep temperatures at around 24-26 degrees in this room.

What is the water temperature?
Tank temp is around 23-26C.

What is the entire stocking of this tank?
Just orange pumpkin neocaridina shrimp, started with 20 now they're at 12.

Maintenance
How often do you change the water?
Once a week.

How much of the water do you change?
10% on the shrimp tanks.

What do you use to treat your water?
It's water from refill station (>10 tds) with Salty Shrimp GH/KH+ to 200 TDS, started mixing water weeks before getting shrimp to see how my fish do with it (though my tap water is similar, just a bit harder). I put Prime 2nd day of death and have been adding every 48 hours.

Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water?
I vacuumed debris buildup before they got to me, and didn't when they were here since I doubt there's a lot of debris at the moment.

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish?
Yes, I test these once every so often as I raise show guppies in these tanks. The water needs to be very clean.

What do you use to test the water?
API Freshwater Master Test Kit, API GH/KH, TDS Meter.

What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: >5
pH: 7.4
GH: 7
KH: 3-4

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish?
How much do you feed your fish?
What brand of food do you feed your fish?
Do you feed frozen?
Do you feed freeze-dried foods?

Here's the charted feeding schedule for the shrimp to answer all of it in one go:
Sunday - No Food
Monday - Food I feed my guppies (50% protein with probiotics mix, brand is a local brand; 10pcs, they're smaller than hikari shrimp cuisine)
Tuesday - Water Change Day + Bacter AE (some Shrimp Baby on the tanks with shrimplets; toothpick tip amounts)
Wednesday - Snowflake Food (0.5cm)
Thursday - No Food (remove remaining Snowflake end of day if they don't finish)
Friday - Mulberry Leaf/Moringa Leaves
Saturday - Local brand shrimp mix (it has Spirulina, Chlorella and leaf mix; around 0.5cm, they finish this fast) or Hikari Shrimp Cuisine + Shrimp Baby on tank with shrimplets

They also have half a medium Indian Almond leaf in the tank that I picked up myself locally, it's been there since the shrimp have been.

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish?
Over 2 weeks.

How long ago did you first notice these symptoms?
Over a week ago.

In a few words, can you explain the symptoms?
They don't seem sick, nor did they die of ring of death (the others are molting properly). There's just one death a day. Tried to look for milky white bodies, parasites, even potential fungi; there's none.

Have you started any treatment for the illness?
No, just adding prime.

Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase?
No, they were active.

How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all?
They're still active and swimming around.

Explain your emergency situation in detail.
So it has taken me around 2 years to reconsider getting back into breeding shrimp when my colony died due to baygon when we moved. It's painful then, it's still painful now.

A local shrimp keeper in my area knew I was looking for amano shrimp to help keep algae in one of my tanks in check, and he sees me around our local fish groups enough to ask if I was at all interested in neo shrimp. When I told him what happened, he offered to send me some shrimp. I agreed as he told me he'll give me his culls to see if I can "work magic" on them considering he's been following me in the local guppy scene. I told him guppies and shrimp are different, and I'm very afraid of losing colonies. I also have Yellow Golden Backs for about half a year at that point, but they haven't been breeding well for me and I have them solo in one of my 10 gallon planted tanks, so I don't know how many there are (there were 8 left from my original 10, these were also given to me as freebies from a purchase). This was before I moved them into another guppy grow out tank on their own and they seem to be doing much better in the salty shrimp remineralized water.

I told him I needed time to setup current tanks for shrimp, and he said it's ok since he needed to wait for stock for the amanos. It took about a month for him to get stock, which was enough time for me to wait for my Salty Shrimp (with Bacter AE and Shrimp Baby) shipment and see if the parameters change in my tanks. I asked him his water parameters and matched his (he also mixed his water cause he kept caridinas as well). No cycle crashing in all 16 tanks in my guppy room (my guppy tanks have around 5-10 nitrates, not less than 5 like in my shrimp tanks), everything seems well. I gravel vacuumed the tanks a few days before I had him send the shrimp to me (he lived around 15-20 minutes away so the transport isn't bad) to see if that'll cause any parameter shifts, and nothing. To be fair the gravel is a very thin layer around 1cm, since I gravel vaccum often for my guppies.

He sent me 15 blue dream culls, 10 amano shrimp (that I bought from him), 10 Red Cherries (my dad wanted some for his tanks, so I asked if he had some as well) and 20 Orange Pumpkins. He said the orange pumpkins were imports and they usually don't sell well for him which is why he gave that many. Considering these were my original colony, he thought maybe I'd be thrilled having them again. I drip acclimated all of them for 3 hours to match tds (his was around 30ppm higher) and then another hour just to be sure.

The first week, I was thrilled. All of the shrimp I got from him were doing well. Had heathy molts, and were active. In fact, one of the blues he sent me was a berried female. I thought she had dropped the eggs when she moved, but the end of the first week I counted 6-7 shrimplets. I was excited! The only issue was vorticella in the blue dream tank within a couple of days from getting them, which I just salt dipped away.

Right before the second week, my yellow golden back tank had some bacterial bloom after putting in a mulberry leaf. I tested parameters and there was 0.25 ammonia so I added prime and removed the leaf. No deaths, sorted out the next day. Around that time, I found my first orange shrimp death. I chalked that up to maybe old age or something. 1 out of 20 is great turn out. Then the next day, another orange died. I tested waters and no trace of ammonia or nitrite. I assumed maybe it was a spike at the night and since that was no food day, I hope it sorted out. Third day another death. This shrimp wasn't dead for long and the body didn't have ring of death (same as the others), it wasn't milky. I tested water in the morning and in the evening and still nothing, but I added prime for good measure. Fourth day, another death. Fifth day, another death. I added prime again, this time higher dose. Sixth, Seventh, 1 death each. Today is the 8th day, and I found another dead body and added prime. I've been testing twice daily and it's the same parameters: 0-0 ammonia and nitrites; and less than 5 nitrates.

The other shrimp (including alive oranges) are active and swimming about, in fact the blues have 2 berried females today. It's just the oranges that have deaths as well. Is it safe to assume it's because they're imported? I read somewhere it could take around 2-4 weeks until we're absolutely certain they acclimated and that imports don't do too well switching tanks multiple times. This is really giving me a bit of anxiety in this tank. I'm not going to change the routine or anything so I don't stress them out more and hopefully some survive, but I'm hoping things don't go worse. I guess I just want confirmation if it's because of acclimation, or if I should look for something else?

The only difference between the blue tank and the orange tank is the driftwood. The blue dreams have small dragon stones with guppy grass. The driftwood is Malaysian drift wood. They're both really old and I used them in my original shrimp colony before we moved here. When we moved, these weren't in the tank and were plastic wrapped in storage. I think they weren't even shipped here when the baygon mishap happened. I sanitized them with food grade H2O2 and were in the tanks with the guppies, about a good two weeks before the shrimp came.

Thanks for reading! Hope we figure out what's going on because I really want these shrimp to do well.
 

Flyfisha

Hi Cazrea,
I read all of your post . If I reply and get the ball rolling there is a good chance others will have an opinion and step up to answer?

I realise you have your own routine and it’s been working reasonably ok up until now .
Can I write of my routine and say what I find does not kill my neocaridina shrimp?

Let me start with my routine in fish fry tanks that have hundreds of cherry shrimp. Because the fry are often tiny and in some cases they are overstocked and over feed ( power feed) and I like to try and keep growth hormones to a minimum my water change routine is often three 45% changes each week. My neocaridina shrimp have no problem multiply until the fry become adults. Depending on the species the juvenile fry as they grow bigger use the cherry shrimp young as a live food source. Certain species of fish like plecos don’t eat many young shrimp and the population explodes over the weeks the tank is over feed.

Next I question your repeated use of Prime . I know the theory of what you are doing but when no ammonia is available Prime consumes oxygen . It is written on the bottle that five times the dose is an overdose and it clearly says that in our hot climate two times the recommended dose is an overdose at 30 degrees centigrade.

I would also like to say I have tried shrimp only tanks with small water changes and large amounts of time between them. For me I did not see as much growth in numbers.
I could also say I have had cherry shrimp turn up in waste water tanks abandon on the floor for months without a filter or food. I have had outdoor fire bucket waste water containers with cherry shrimp in water at 42 degrees centigrade. And seen cheery shrimp under ice in winter.

381DC02E-80B9-4A37-82AB-D68E30E96295.jpeg

E954DEC5-C1BA-4546-A9D2-7D07DAB09728.jpeg

Please take what I write as it was written in an effort to help.
I think 10% water changes once a week is part of your issue?
I think adding Prime to water multiple times each week instead of changing some is also not helping.
 

Cazrea

Hi Cazrea,
I read all of your post . If I reply and get the ball rolling there is a good chance others will have an opinion and step up to answer?

I realise you have your own routine and it’s been working reasonably ok up until now .
Can I write of my routine and say what I find does not kill my neocaridina shrimp?

Let me start with my routine in fish fry tanks that have hundreds of cherry shrimp. Because the fry are often tiny and in some cases they are overstocked and over feed ( power feed) and I like to try and keep growth hormones to a minimum my water change routine is often three 45% changes each week. My neocaridina shrimp have no problem multiply until the fry become adults. Depending on the species the juvenile fry as they grow bigger use the cherry shrimp young as a live food source. Certain species of fish like plecos don’t eat many young shrimp and the population explodes over the weeks the tank is over feed.

Next I question your repeated use of Prime . I know the theory of what you are doing but when no ammonia is available Prime consumes oxygen . It is written on the bottle that five times the dose is an overdose and it clearly says that in our hot climate two times the recommended dose is an overdose at 30 degrees centigrade.

I would also like to say I have tried shrimp only tanks with small water changes and large amounts of time between them. For me I did not see as much growth in numbers.
I could also say I have had cherry shrimp turn up in waste water tanks abandon on the floor for months without a filter or food. I have had outdoor fire bucket waste water containers with cherry shrimp in water at 42 degrees centigrade. And seen cheery shrimp under ice in winter.

381DC02E-80B9-4A37-82AB-D68E30E96295.jpeg

E954DEC5-C1BA-4546-A9D2-7D07DAB09728.jpeg

Please take what I write as it was written in an effort to help.
I think 10% water changes once a week is part of your issue?
I think adding Prime to water multiple times each week instead of changing some is also not helping.
Thanks so much for your response!

I want to clarify that the amount of Prime I added was 1 drop from a 10ml syringe, and the double dose is 2 drops; not really fully dosed the 1 drop per gallon or 0.5ml for 5 gallons. Since I didn’t see any ammonia in the test, I was trying to assess if there were trace amounts of it and if that’s an issue. Sorry for not being clear about the dosage, I’ve been using this product for a long time as a dechlorinator before I switched to remineralized water and I’m lax with it.

Prime also dissipates from a tank quicker if there’s some circulation and organics as I’ve read, but Seachem support says it wears out binding efficacy by 48 hours and that’s for tanks without circulation. When I added new Prime, the efficacy of the prior dosage likely has worn off.

However, I did forget about the oxygen binding so I added more aeration in the tanks (I use one air compressor for that rack and the individual valves are inaccessible without moving stuff around) as good measure. Thanks for reminding me!

I’m glad your shrimp are thriving in your routine! I actually docked down from my 30%-40% water change in these tanks to the 10% since they are new shrimp and I didn’t wanna shock them. I know neos are pretty hardy bunch and I guess I’m just bouncing off of the past since I had kept my first colony for a good 3 years only to have lost all of them in a span of a week. I do tend to be very hard on myself when things go off, and it’s a problem even outside of keeping fish.

I really appreciate your response! It makes me feel at ease to be reminded that there are neos that survive through harsh conditions. It really shifted my brain to the fact that my blue dreams and yellows (just saw the males swim around at dinner and one of them is berried when I went to up aeration) are doing a lot better, and I’m hoping the oranges would pull through despite this week.

Thanks so much!!
 

richiep

Hi Cazrea that's an interesting read and goes without saying you are knowledgeable in what you do both shrimp and guppies
Over the past 11 years iv played about with water changes from 40%to 10% but the past 5 years all my tanks are 15% weekly, I use Salty bee gh+ in all my tanks which are ro water, so not a lot of difference between the two of us there
I feed 6 days a week but only one day of high protein,
Included in the 6 feeds bactor ae mixed with glasgarten baby food
Just for you to see this is my feeding program
(Picture)
No doubt you know its harder to keep perameters stable in smaller tanks but you're doing nothing wrong there as I can see,
You mention the 3/4 weeks acclamation period this is purely because people put shrimp in a tank and then complaining 3 weeks later they are dying and they've done nothing wrong,the wrong part most of the time was the acclimation and the 3weeks is there for the first molt to take place and in the acclimation was wrong molt issues come into play which a lot of people are not aware of, but in your case again you know what to look for, so nothing wrong there.

Whats recently happened to me is I've just lost an almost entire breed of Super Red Crystal's I was having 5 dead a night and could not get to the bottom of this until one morning 12ish days ago I found one shrimp almost dead and decided to put him under a microscope, I had him there for 5ish minutes turning him all shapes and nothing, I was just about to give up and something cought my eye and I couldn't believe it,
It was planaria in miniature and I mean small, as much as I had looked in the tank nothing ever showed and nothing as been added to any tanks for over 12months which makes me think the eggs have an incubation period, after the first dose of treatment deaths stopped leaving me with a dozen, so that's something to bare in mind. This is the first mass die I've ever had and it hurts,
The only thing I can see that could be killing your shrimp is the constant dosing of prime, the first one or two may have been in the upper bracket of age where they don't transport well and don't acclimatise well to new tanks so the week and aged will suffer first and the added prime as taken over making you think there's a problem.
It's documented that even prime can overdose and kill shrimp so I'd stop that unless absolutely necessary
Sorry for the long winded reply
If possible can you take pictures of and if you have any more dead in the tank or siphon into a clear tube and take pictures this way it shows a lot more detail,
With your knowledge though I don't think you've missed anything,



20200818_202133.jpg
 

Cazrea

Hi Cazrea that's an interesting read and goes without saying you are knowledgeable in what you do both shrimp and guppies
Over the past 11 years iv played about with water changes from 40%to 10% but the past 5 years all my tanks are 15% weekly, I use Salty bee gh+ in all my tanks which are ro water, so not a lot of difference between the two of us there
I feed 6 days a week but only one day of high protein,
Included in the 6 feeds bactor ae mixed with glasgarten baby food
Just for you to see this is my feeding program
(Picture)
No doubt you know its harder to keep perameters stable in smaller tanks but you're doing nothing wrong there as I can see,
You mention the 3/4 weeks acclamation period this is purely because people put shrimp in a tank and then complaining 3 weeks later they are dying and they've done nothing wrong,the wrong part most of the time was the acclimation and the 3weeks is there for the first molt to take place and in the acclimation was wrong molt issues come into play which a lot of people are not aware of, but in your case again you know what to look for, so nothing wrong there.

Whats recently happened to me is I've just lost an almost entire breed of Super Red Crystal's I was having 5 dead a night and could not get to the bottom of this until one morning 12ish days ago I found one shrimp almost dead and decided to put him under a microscope, I had him there for 5ish minutes turning him all shapes and nothing, I was just about to give up and something cought my eye and I couldn't believe it,
It was planaria in miniature and I mean small, as much as I had looked in the tank nothing ever showed and nothing as been added to any tanks for over 12months which makes me think the eggs have an incubation period, after the first dose of treatment deaths stopped leaving me with a dozen, so that's something to bare in mind. This is the first mass die I've ever had and it hurts,
The only thing I can see that could be killing your shrimp is the constant dosing of prime, the first one or two may have been in the upper bracket of age where they don't transport well and don't acclimatise well to new tanks so the week and aged will suffer first and the added prime as taken over making you think there's a problem.
It's documented that even prime can overdose and kill shrimp so I'd stop that unless absolutely necessary
Sorry for the long winded reply
If possible can you take pictures of and if you have any more dead in the tank or siphon into a clear tube and take pictures this way it shows a lot more detail,
With your knowledge though I don't think you've missed anything,
Thanks so much for sharing and your input! I usually read through threads and lurk before posting and I see your replies often. I appreciate you taking your time to read and respond!

I'm so sorry you had so much loss in a colony, it really is an incredibly painful experience. I'm hoping the best for you that this colony would recover well from here on and glad that you resolved it! I've been meaning to get a microscope, mostly to see how the pigment cells interact on my guppies. I've seen really nice photographs of guppy pigment cells. Pretty interested in seeing how the genes are on my cross before I start going back as this project was meant to improve a strain I already have.

This morning I checked the shrimp and no deaths so far today, though one of them is not as active as the others since this morning with no signs of a molt. I've moved her into a quarantine tank, and she ate the food I put in there so I'm hoping she improves. I also got a reply from the person that sent me the shrimp and he too has had multiple deaths with the oranges around the same time. He's at around 30% deaths at the moment not counting the ones he sent me (record high today at 7 shrimp). He noted that I should watch out for bacterial infections on mine since he's isolated around 15-20 with milky white bodies and thinks that's not all of the infected ones.

So far, the ones I have don't seem to have milky bodies but I do think it's possible they have some sort of fluke. Whether it's from the travel or from something else, I think I'll be watching them closely for more signs. I have Maracyn and Paraguard on hand, just in case I really need these but I think removing the bodies before they were eaten or picked on has helped me mitigate the issues. I'm slightly relieved to know that the person that got them has issues, but will be bracing myself for medicating if needed.
 

richiep

From what you're saying now leads me to think you have a disease which as transfered from the buyer, its harder to spot in those shrimp, Muscular Necrosis, starts in the tail, porcelain disease will turn them white from the head,
There's also cotton wool disease, all being bacterial disease, and as much as I try to keep up with disease there's been little come through to try and get med to cure these and it ends up with the death of the shrimp,
You can research all these but you'll find little to help and dead ends,
 

Cazrea

Hi! Just to update this thread. I wanted to take my time to confirm and ensure it's not my husbandry.

Since the last post, I have had 0 deaths. The remaining ratio of the shrimp were 8 females to 3 males. 5 females are berried, and the remaining have large saddles so I think it's about time until they get berried as well!

I agree that it was a disease that needed to be sorted out, and while I never got to figure out what it was specifically, I'm overall pleased it didn't come back. Thanks for everyone's input!
 

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