Cycling With Fish Using Tss+ And High Nitrates

Ok - please help. I don't want to lose my little guy. Bought a new Beta for 5 gallon tank (no other fish) and added Tetra Safestart plus 2 days ago. Before adding TSS+, readings were nitrites-0, ammonia-0.25ppm, Nitrates-0.

I know you are suppose to wait 14 days before doing a wc, however my fish is just laying around on the bottom of the tank - so I think he may be stressed?

Current readings are Nitrites-0, Ammonia-0, Nitrates-80 ppm.

Should I do a partial water change?

 

YES! Do a large WC. The only reason you wouldn't is that you're removing the TSS+ from the water, which isn't an issue since you can probably just add more.

I'd do a 50% change, and that should get your Nitrates down to about 40 PPM. Tomorrow, do another 50% WC, test again, and if you have any ammonia or nitrite, add more TSS+. If you don't have any more ammonia or nitrite, then you're cycled.

As a general rule, ammonia and nitrite should be at 0 any time you have a fish in the tank. Any at all is toxic. Nitrates should be at MAX 40 PPM, and preferably below 20.

As a side note, just because a betta isn't active doesn't mean they're necessarily stressed. Male bettas can be pretty lazy due to their huge amount of finnage. I'd do a WC anyway, but you probably have nothing to worry about, and if you do, then it's probably not related to the water. That said, clean water always helps.

 

I should NOT treat the new water with prime correct since it will kill the TSS bacteria? We have chloramines in our tap water so I usually treat the new water with prime.

 

I should NOT treat the new water with prime correct since it will kill the TSS bacteria? We have chloramines in our tap water so I usually treat the new water with prime.

You should still use prime. Then do what lorekeeper said and add more safestart if it seems needed.

 

ok thanks!!

 

Fill a 5 gallon bucket with tap water and treat it with Prime. Let it sit for 24hr before doing a water change and you should be fine.

Nitrates under 40ppm is considered excellent water quality. Up to 80ppm is fine for most fish but most target 40ppm. 20ppm and under would be pristine water. Most fish can handle up to 1ppm ammonia and nitrites short term but you really do want both to be at 0ppm.

 

Anytime you're using tapwater, treat it with prime. Prime is what saves your bacteria.

DarkOne I'm curious, why would you let your water sit out for 24 hours? I've never done that. I know that back before conditioners were common and chlorine was still used, people would allow water to sit out over night for the chlorine to gas off, but I don't know of any reason to do that in freshwater tanks. Not being condescending here, I'm just legitimately curious

As for the nitrates arguement, I'd say anything under 20 PPM is "excellent", with 40 PPM being "okay". To each their own, though, but just to give OP some different opinions.

 

You should still use prime. Then do what lorekeeper said and add more safestart if it seems needed.

Wrong. Prime will kill the SafeStart bacteria by starving it. The ammonia included in SafeStart will be bound up by Prime. The Tetra Company has specifically warned about it. Use Tetra AquaSafe per TSS instructions to dechlorinate the water before adding the SafeStart.

 

Wrong. Prime will kill the SafeStart bacteria by starving it. The ammonia included in SafeStart will be bound up by Prime. The Tetra Company has specifically warned about it. Use Tetra AquaSafe per TSS instructions to dechlorinate the water before adding the SafeStart.

I cycled a tank with TSS+ by using Prime. No issues whatsoever. I wouldn't use the emergency dose of Prime, but otherwise, it's fine to use.

Does it surprise you that a company would take the chance to say "Hey, use our product instead!"? Until I see some unbiased proof, I'll continue to use Prime, even when cycling a tank. Better conditioner in every way.

 

She's using TSS+. Prime will kill off the TSS+ BB (stall the cycle). Prime becomes inert after 24 hrs so let it sit out for 24hrs and it'll be safe to do a w/c while cycling with TSS+. Some say it doesn't matter and Seachem says it won't but there are more people that have experienced otherwise. I've tried TSS+, Quick Start and Stability. TSS+ is the only one that cycled a tank in 5 days (possibly less). QS was almost useless and Stability took over a week with partially cycled media.

When using TSS+, you need to shake the bottle like it owes you money. Then shake it some more.

During normal w/c's, I add prime to the bucket/garbage can and let it sit for 10m before pumping into my tanks.

All my tanks are planted so I'm usually under 20ppm nitrates but my 75 gallon with EBA parents and kids from 1-2.5" have gone up to 80ppm at times. I do 30% w/c twice a week to keep that in check so I try to keep it under 40ppm but can reach 80ppm just before a w/c if I get generous with their food.

 

Gotcha on the 24 hours. If people have experienced other wise, it may be best to follow those instructions. That said, I cycled a brand new tank in 4 days with TSS+ and Prime without leaving any water out at all, so again, to each their own.

 

I cycled a tank with TSS+ by using Prime. No issues whatsoever. I wouldn't use the emergency dose of Prime, but otherwise, it's fine to use.

Does it surprise you that a company would take the chance to say "Hey, use our product instead!"? Until I see some unbiased proof, I'll continue to use Prime, even when cycling a tank. Better conditioner in every way.

Prime binds up ammonia to make non toxic. It also ruins it as a good source for the bacteria TSS includes. Sure you can cycle a tank anyway but it won't have anything to do with TSS and it won't cycle as fast. If you use Prime, don't bother with TSS.

 

Gotcha on the 24 hours. If people have experienced other wise, it may be best to follow those instructions. That said, I cycled a brand new tank in 4 days with TSS+ and Prime without leaving any water out at all, so again, to each their own.

When using TSS+ in a new tank, you fill it with treated water (Prime or any other water conditioner) and wait 24hr before adding TSS+ and fish. You don't do a water change for 2 weeks. I was impatient and tested after 5 days and it was 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 10 nitrates. I never saw ammonia or nitrites in that tank ever. I still waited 2 weeks before doing a 50% water change.

Again, it's very important to shake the snot out of the bottle of TSS+ (or any other BB in a bottle) before dosing.

 

Prime binds up ammonia to make non toxic. It also ruins it as a good source for the bacteria TSS includes. Sure you can cycle a tank anyway but it won't have anything to do with TSS and it won't cycle as fast. If you use Prime, don't bother with TSS.

When using TSS+ in a new tank, you fill it with treated water (Prime or any other water conditioner) and wait 24hr before adding TSS+ and fish. You don't do a water change for 2 weeks. I was impatient and tested after 5 days and it was 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and 10 nitrates. I never saw ammonia or nitrites in that tank ever. I still waited 2 weeks before doing a 50% water change.

Again, it's very important to shake the snot out of the bottle of TSS+ (or any other BB in a bottle) before dosing.

This is taken straight from a forum post by an admin at Seachem:

"Prime converts ammonia into a complexed imidium salt. This salt is a nitrogenous compound that can still be utilized by aerobic bacteria. In the same way they consume ammonia, these bacteria consume the imidium salt and release nitrite as a byproduct. Prime will also bind with nitrite and nitrate, however, it will not prevent bacteria from consuming these compounds as well."

I have no way of knowing if that's true or not, but I can say I added water, prime, TSS+, and fish all at once, and had a cycled tank in about 4 days, with no cycled media in the tank.

To the OP, your safest bet is to go with their suggestions. Apparently my experience hasn't been everyone's, and YMMV.

 

Ok - please help. I don't want to lose my little guy. Bought a new Beta for 5 gallon tank (no other fish) and added Tetra Safestart plus 2 days ago. Before adding TSS+, readings were nitrites-0, ammonia-0.25ppm, Nitrates-0.

I know you are suppose to wait 14 days before doing a wc, however my fish is just laying around on the bottom of the tank - so I think he may be stressed?

Current readings are Nitrites-0, Ammonia-0, Nitrates-80 ppm.

Should I do a partial water change?

This is why it is not a good idea and is recommended you not do water tests while trying to cycle with TSS+. There is no way one little betta could have produced enough ammonia in 2 days to raise the nitrates from 0 all the way up to 80. It has to be the TSS that is causing that reading.

I am sure there are folks that will disagree with me but cycling a tank with just this little guy in it doesn't need bottled bacteria. And 'specially not one designed to go 2 weeks without a water change. If this were my tank and my little fish friend I would do a large water change to get most of that TSS back out of there.

I would then keep a very close eye on the perimeters of the tank. As long as the ammonia plus nitrites are below 1 I would add a dose of prime for the full volume of the tank. This can and should be done every 24 hours. If the tests show ammonia plus nitrites higher than one do a water change to get them back down and then add a full dose of Prime. Check the PH too because if the PH drops too low the cycle will stall.

As long as one does this the fish is in no danger and the tank will cycle.

 

It's my understanding that BB that occurs naturally is not the same as what's included in TSS. I believe Seachem is right that Prime won't interfere with the natural occurring bacterria. I also believe it will interfere with TSS bacteria. We just can't treat all bacteria as if it's the same. Stability bacteria is totally different than TSS. TSS makes it safe to add a few fish in a couple of hours after dosing once. Stability on the other hand requires daily doses for a week. That bacteria will last, while TSS will die off in a couple weeks. TSS admits that there will be low ammonia levels during the 2 weeks, but not at lethal levels. Keep in mind only a few fish should be present during that kind of cycle.

 

That was actually my bad for thinking of Seachem making TSS+ - it's been a long day!

Still doesn't change my experience with the product, though. But, again, to each their own.

 

Wrong. Prime will kill the SafeStart bacteria by starving it. The ammonia included in SafeStart will be bound up by Prime. The Tetra Company has specifically warned about it. Use Tetra AquaSafe per TSS instructions to dechlorinate the water before adding the SafeStart.

I cycled a tank with TSS+ by using Prime. No issues whatsoever. I wouldn't use the emergency dose of Prime, but otherwise, it's fine to use.

Does it surprise you that a company would take the chance to say "Hey, use our product instead!"? Until I see some unbiased proof, I'll continue to use Prime, even when cycling a tank. Better conditioner in every way.

She's using TSS+. Prime will kill off the TSS+ BB (stall the cycle). Prime becomes inert after 24 hrs so let it sit out for 24hrs and it'll be safe to do a w/c while cycling with TSS+. Some say it doesn't matter and Seachem says it won't but there are more people that have experienced otherwise. I've tried TSS+, Quick Start and Stability. TSS+ is the only one that cycled a tank in 5 days (possibly less). QS was almost useless and Stability took over a week with partially cycled media.

When using TSS+, you need to shake the bottle like it owes you money. Then shake it some more.

During normal w/c's, I add prime to the bucket/garbage can and let it sit for 10m before pumping into my tanks.

All my tanks are planted so I'm usually under 20ppm nitrates but my 75 gallon with EBA parents and kids from 1-2.5" have gone up to 80ppm at times. I do 30% w/c twice a week to keep that in check so I try to keep it under 40ppm but can reach 80ppm just before a w/c if I get generous with their food.

Yes I understand this guys! I'm saying that because this is a fish in cycle. I don't disagree about the conflict between TSS and prime in the first 24 hours of detoxifying water, but have had no issues during my 2 week fishless cycle when I did a water change for some smelly rotting wood. That being said, to me it is a no go to add untreated water with chloramine from the tap just to not disrupt the BB from TSS (edit: I now realize you recommend tetra's dechlorinator as per TSS instructions but agree with lorekeeper the directions to use their own product is pretty transparent in house marketing imho) I can appreciate how prime binds ammonia, but if you wait 24 hours as recommended and new ammonia is being introduced... I'm not so sure.

 

It's my understanding that BB that occurs naturally is not the same as what's included in TSS. I believe Seachem is right that Prime won't interfere with the natural occurring bacterria. I also believe it will interfere with TSS bacteria. We just can't treat all bacteria as if it's the same. Stability bacteria is totally different than TSS. TSS makes it safe to add a few fish in a couple of hours after dosing once. Stability on the other hand requires daily doses for a week. That bacteria will last, while TSS will die off in a couple weeks. TSS admits that there will be low ammonia levels during the 2 weeks, but not at lethal levels. Keep in mind only a few fish should be present during that kind of cycle.

Can you cite some sources for these statements? Would really like to know where you read this.
And I'm not trying to call you out, I am genuinely curious. That bacteria from TSS vs naturally occurring differ I don't dispute, but that prime ruins one and not the other as a statement of fact I would like to know more about.
I realize this kind of debate is very subjective and a "YMMV" type of thing, but you mention so many things as facts I'd like some context.

-stability has a few different types of bacteria in it, as does TSS. How is it completely different? Different, sure, but totally different bacteria across the board? And also could they just have different approaches to introducing bacteria, a dose each day vs all at once? I'm not sure if the real assumption is bacteria from these two brands all being the same, or actually yours that they are completely different.

-How do you know the bacteria in TSS only lasts a few weeks then dies off? Isn't it multiplying as it establishes in the filter media? I am aware of some other brands of "bottled bacteria" that are criticized in a similar way you describe TSS for only temporarily converting ammonia to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate, then dying off within a few weeks. I have read it explained multiple times by a few well known members these types have different bacteria that don't establish the BB for the long term. TSS, however, has been held up as a type that does have the BB needed to help properly seed your media, along with Dr. Tim's and BioSpira, and a few more I can't remember.

-it seems very hard to relate an anecdote where I both used prime and had a fast effective cycle with TSS (24 hrs after the prime, let's say) because you can simply say, "it cycled because of the naturally occurring BB, even though the TSS bacteria had been starved by prime"

If the mods feel this is a derailment, I think there is enough relevance to the OP to let it play out for another post or two. We can all benefit from the statements made so far being further explained. Please combine my posts, I apologize for making three.

 

Can you cite some sources for these statements? Would really like to know where you read this.
And I'm not trying to call you out, I am genuinely curious. That bacteria from TSS vs naturally occurring differ I don't dispute, but that prime ruins one and not the other as a statement of fact I would like to know more about.
I realize this kind of debate is very subjective and a "YMMV" type of thing, but you mention so many things as facts I'd like some context.

-stability has a few different types of bacteria in it, as does TSS. How is it completely different? Different, sure, but totally different bacteria across the board? And also could they just have different approaches to introducing bacteria, a dose each day vs all at once? I'm not sure if the real assumption is bacteria all being the same, or actually yours that they are completely different.

-How do you know the bacteria in TSS only lasts a few weeks then dies off? Isn't it multiplying as it establishes in the filter media? I am aware of some other types of "bottled bacteria" that are criticized in a similar way you describe TSS for only temporarily converting ammonia to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate, then dying off within a few weeks. I have read it explained multiple times by a few well known members these types have a different bacteria that doesn't establish the BB for the long term. TSS, however, has been held up as a type that does have the BB needed to help properly seed your media, along with Dr. Tim's and BioSpira, and a few more I can't remember.

-it seems very hard to relate an anecdote where I both used prime and had a fast effective cycle with TSS (24 hrs after the prime, let's say) because you can simply say, "it cycled because of the naturally occurring BB, even though the TSS bacteria has been starved by prime"

If the mods feel this is a derailment, I think there is enough relevance to the OP to let it play out for another post or two. We can all benefit from the statements made so far being further explained. Please combine my posts, I apologize for making three.

No problem and I agree that this is a very useful discussion. Honestly I had it wrong before reading this forum.

If you read the entire TSS Q and A and the Seachems's website then I think you'd have to acknowledge that if you cycled then it was because of the natural BB that did it, not the TSS if you didn't wait 24 hours or if you re-dosed Prime during the first 7 days. Prime doesn't interfere with natural cycling. It does interfere with TSS.

From Tetra as reported on this site: Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart

Note that after waiting 2 weeks for a water change they want you to dose again. I assume you dose again because the original TSS dose is done
Note that anything that locks up ammonia starves the TSS bacteria. It doesn't specifically mention Prime but it describes exactly what Prime does
Note that you must wait at least 24 hours to use it and note that you cannot use it again for at least 7 days(Prime that is)

From Seachems's website: Note that it says it can be used during tank cycling, I assume normal tank cycling where naturally occurring bacteria takes place, not bottled bacteria. As far as a company pushing its own products, they all do including Seachem.
“Prime® is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime® also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime® is non-acidic and will not impact PH.

 

No problem and I agree that this is a very useful discussion. Honestly I had it wrong before reading this forum.

If you read the entire TSS Q and A and the Seachems's website then I think you'd have to acknowledge that if you cycled then it was because of the natural BB that did it, not the TSS if you didn't wait 24 hours or if you re-dosed Prime during the first 7 days. Prime doesn't interfere with natural cycling. It does interfere with TSS.

From Tetra as reported on this site: Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart

Note that after waiting 2 weeks for a water change they want you to dose again. I assume you dose again because the original TSS dose is done
Note that anything that locks up ammonia starves the TSS bacteria. It doesn't specifically mention Prime but it describes exactly what Prime does
Note that you must wait at least 24 hours to use it and note that you cannot use it again for at least 7 days(Prime that is)

From Seachems's website: Note that it says it can be used during tank cycling, I assume normal tank cycling where naturally occurring bacteria takes place, not bottled bacteria. As far as a company pushing its own products, they all do including Seachem.
“Prime® is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime® also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime® is non-acidic and will not impact PH.

Thank you for the reply. I would like to wait for a few other members to have a chance to contribute here before we get locked into a line by line back and forth.
For now though I would like to say when you said

If you use Prime, don't bother with TSS.

among a few other strong statements about how the two conflict, that is in part what made me have to follow up with your assertions. Now you mention, and I think we can both agree on this, if you wait 24 hours between treating with prime and using TSS they are not in total conflict. Furthermore, if you wait 7 days after dosing TSS before using any ammonia binding water treatment (such as prime) again they are not in conflict.
I do remember something about treating again 2 weeks later on my bottle of TSS, I have to give you that one. However, making the definite assumption that this means TSS bacteria die off in 2 weeks because of that direction is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
Again I really appreciate your reply and agree this to be a worthy discussion for everyone. I may have more to discuss about your follow up tomorrow as I just got off a long night shift tonight. I look forward to hearing other people's take on this.

PS I have read that Q&A before and if it's not a sticky somewhere already, it sure should be!

PSS I assumed there's plenty of marketing and pushing from seachem not only bragging about prime as you quoted but also recommending stability which was exactly my point that they will recommend their own products almost in a way that sounds like you can't use others. Like when a shampoo bottle tells you as your second step to use the same brand of conditioner as though another brand just wouldn't work at all. I yield to you in this case though because I recognize prime does more than just dechlorinate which is what complicates the subject. And can you clarify in what way stability is completely different bacteria from TSS other than being able to work in conjunction with prime and recommended to use smaller amounts daily vs an entire bottle.

 

I probably jumped on you a little too fast because of so many other posters who have all the right intentions but recklessly tell people people to just add Prime for seemingly just about all water problems. When I said don't bother using TSS if you're using Prime I assumed maybe wrongly that you didn't wait 7 days before re-dosing. Again that comes from me to reading post after post from members that automatically say Prime every time an ammonia level reads anything....even during TSS cycling.I just keep picturing people testing their water every day, see a little ammonia and blam, in goes the Prime...and yes saying TSS die off may not be right or it may be but I think we can agree that if TSS wants another dose after two weeks that if it isn't dead, it's not doing the job anymore. Apologies to the OP. I'll take a break now. I'm looking forward to other repaponses.

 

I probably jumped on you a little too fast because of so many other posters who have all the right intentions but recklessly tell people people to just add Prime for seemingly just about all water problems. When I said don't bother using TSS if you're using Prime I assumed maybe wrongly that you didn't wait 7 days before re-dosing. Again that comes from me to reading post after post from members that automatically say Prime every time an ammonia level reads anything....even during TSS cycling.I just keep picturing people testing their water every day, see a little ammonia and blam, in goes the Prime...and yes saying TSS die off may not be right or it may be but I think we can agree that if TSS wants another dose after two weeks that if it isn't dead, it's not doing the job anymore. Apologies to the OP. I'll take a break now. I'm looking forward to other repaponses.

Yea we will wait for others together lol. I’m taking a break too but I actually totally agree with everything you just said. When the OP asked if he shouldn’t use prime (after a water change) for fear of damaging his TSS cycle, I told him to use it for fear he was going to add new water that hadn’t been treated for chlorine etc. Whether I agreed or not about a water change. I was worried the tap water wouldn’t be treated just for fear of disrupting a cycle which I thought secondary to dechlorinating water for the Betta.
All good!

 

Before receiving all the feedback, I did a partial wc treated with prime to get the nitrates down a bit. The only reason I was nervous was the betta was acting stressed. (who knows - he still may just be acclimating to his new environment). The readings this morning are Nitrites-0, Ammonia-0, Nitrates-20.

I will retest later to see if those readings hold, however my question now is should I add more TSS+ to help continue the cycle since I did a partial wc with prime or simply monitor it?

 

I would to speed the cycle up but remember to wait at least 24 hours before adding the TSS and don't add any Prime for at least 7 days after adding the TSS. If the ammonia gets to lethal levels or if you see the fish getting sick then by all means do water changes and don't worry about a short TSS cycle. Also as someone else mentioned before, your tests will show unreiable readings during this period.

 

......also the Prime won't get the nitrates down if that's why it was added. The water change does that. I wouldn't worry about nitrate s during the cycle. If they are way up there like 80 or higher then your cycle is probably almost done and water changes will reduce it. Remember Primes major function is to dechlorinate. A side benefit is to detxify ammonia for 24 hours. You can use other dechlorinator. FYI I usually use Prime but used AquaSafe when I did a TSS cycle

 

Thank you - all of this information has been extremely informative!!!