20 Gallon Tank cycle broke....can't restart.

HI.
I'm having problems getting my 48l tank to cycle again. We were doing alright until we had an outbreak of whitespot. used the meds as instructed, including removing the filters and the sugar coated tetras recovered nicely. The filters dried out during the dosing, so we're back at square 1 with the cycle. since then I've been changing the water daily trying to keep my fish healthy. The ammonia won't go down, no matter what I do. I'm changing it and changing it and changing it, but the params are the same, and the fish are gradually getting weaker, even our beloved Siamese who always comes to say hello when you come in the room. Here's the numbers.
Ammonia 1.5
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
PH 6.8
temp 24C
We have 1 siamese fighter female, 1 male and 1 female tux platy, 2 male guppies, 1 male and 4 female neon tetras and 1 cory (gender uncertain) I feed them once a day with a small pinch of flakes (they are eating less and less) and some catfish pellets (again, they are losing interest, but they all love these too). I rinse the filter every few days in the water i'm removing to stop it clogging, and it also has a venturI which I use to keep the o2 levels up. I'm also using nutrafin cycle at each change (using the maintenance dose of 10ml per 40l) on the grounds that every little helps, and it shouldn't do any harm.
I'd really love some advice right now...really don't want to lose another fish, especially DashI our betta. she's such a little darling. They are all starting to get very tired though

 

Welcome to FishLore

Perhaps the ammonia is coming straight from the tap. Have you tested that yet?

 

thanks for getting back to me Akari, I really appreciate it.
I contacted our water board last week about the water, and they use just straight chlorine in our area, only adding ammonia in more remote parts of Scotland. That said it's a good thought and I'll test it in the morning. I'm just waiting for a result from the tank before I turn it - takes 20 mins to process.

update: did a 20% change this evening and 8hrs later they are all on the bottom looking dreadful, so did a 50% change. they are looking a bit more healthy (ie they are swimming, DashI nuzzled the glass when I touched it) amm reading immediately after the change (how long should I wait to test?) is 1mg/l. better, but a long way to go....

 

thanks for getting back to me Akari, I really appreciate it.
I contacted our water board last week about the water, and they use just straight chlorine in our area, only adding ammonia in more remote parts of Scotland. That said it's a good thought and I'll test it in the morning. I'm just waiting for a result from the tank before I turn it - takes 20 mins to process.

update: did a 20% change this evening and 8hrs later they are all on the bottom looking dreadful, so did a 50% change. they are looking a bit more healthy (ie they are swimming, DashI nuzzled the glass when I touched it) amm reading immediately after the change (how long should I wait to test?) is 1mg/l. better, but a long way to go....

Sounds like you may have to do a water change, fill the tank back up, and do another water change, when you do it. To get an idea of how often to do water changes, testing right after you're done is fine. Other wise, every 24 hours for new tanks, and then every week, as the tank gets older. As soon as you see the levels evening out, then you may not even need to test at all. I hardly do. When I do, its just because I'm curious

 

You need to do larger water changes until your tank cycles. Probably 50% daily. But if your ammonia isn't staying at about .5 to 1 ppm then you would need to increase the percentage.

If you could, it would be very helpful to treat the new water with either Prime of Amquel+/NovAqua (Amquel+ needs to be used along with NovAqua, Prime is a stand alone product) The Prime or Amquel+ will detox the ammonia for 24 hours. (Detox meaning the ammonia will be converted into a form that is not toxic to the fish, but will still feed the bacteria).

I would recommend against using "Cycle". It contains the wrong type of bacteria and will die off after a week or two. But while that wrong bacteria is alive it is busy out competeing the good bacteria.

Good luck!

 

What about using Active Carbon in the filter media, doesn't that help remove Ammonia? Sea-Chem Prime also claims to detoxify it, so it would be easier for bacteria to eat and possibly less toxic to fish.

 

Couple of tips, although I'm not certain what's available to you in the UK...

1) Don't use Nutrafin Cycle - This is a land based bacteria that does not last, hence why you keep having to use it every week. If you want to use a bacterial additive use Tetra Safe Start (TSS). Used correctly this will seed your filter with aquatic nitrifying bacteria.

2) Pick up an AquaClear filter - These filters use separate media that you can choose what to put in instead of the "all in one" cartridges. That way if you ever need to medicate you can take out the charcoal bag, dose the fish, then put it back in to clear the meds without having to worry about the media drying out.

3) Pick up SeaChem Prime water additive - This will remove chlorine and chloramine (sp) and also detox Ammonia for you. However do not use this within 24 hours of using TSS as it will end up possibly starving the good bacteria...use a non-ammonia effecting water treatment for anything within 48 hours of adding TSS to the tank.

Good luck and I hope your fish make it!



EDIT: , I got ninja'd x3...

 

What about using Active Carbon in the filter media, doesn't that help remove Ammonia? Sea-Chem Prime also claims to detoxify it, so it would be easier for bacteria to eat and possibly less toxic to fish.

You don't want to use an ammonia remover since once the ammonia is removed there is no food for the bacteria you are trying to grow. That's why products like Prime and Amquel+ are recommended, since they detox ammonia instead of removing it.

 

FWIW, there's no need to remove your filter while dosing meds. You only have to remove the activated carbon in the filter. I also learned here on Fishlore about treating ich with higher temps. I add as few chemicals as possible to keep my maintenance as simple as I can. https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/curing-ich-naturally.105665/

 

What about using Active Carbon in the filter media, doesn't that help remove Ammonia?

I'm using a PF4 filter which has both a carbon and bacterial (supposedly...not much evidence of that!) filter. didn't realise that it was supposed to help with amonia, but knew that it would remove most other chemicals.

Did another 50% change this morning and amm is now reading 1mg/l. I'll keep going with the daily changes - control by dilution while waiting for the bacteria. Fish are looking a lot better today, much more frisky.

I'm curious, over the last 24 hrs I've removed and replaced 65l of water from a 48l tank, but I've only seen a drop of 0.5....how does that work??
a lot of people are mentioning prime.....presumably this is different from nfin cycle??

I shall see if I can locate some. Amazon perhaps....

Really grateful for all the supportive advice.... a lot of the other forums I've looked at shoot the beginner down in flames, and I really appreciate how helpful and supportive you are here. Thanks

 

hmm. I looked at the temperature method, but was unsure as from what I read the tetras (which were infected) can only tollerate tank temps of up to 24C, which is what I keep my tank at normally. can you use higher temps without killing them? The instructions for the meds specified removing all filter media, which is what I did. presumably it's one of those flexible guidelines!

 

I recommend incorporating a house plant into your setup. the pothos plant is superb at removing toxins. so much in fact that it will outcompete your benficial bacteria if overdone.

If you don't want to do that. I would get some type of floating plant the roots being in the water column will naturally absorb any organic substance that is a detriment to your fishes health.

 

Welcome to FishLore!!

Prime is water conditioner that also detox's ammonia.
I don't think it's available in the UK.

Jdhef mentions to stop using cycle. I'd 2nd that.
While it will process ammonia the bacteria in it will not colonize and kind of keeps you stuck in the beginning stages of the cycle.

Good luck!

 

I'm curious, over the last 24 hrs I've removed and replaced 65l of water from a 48l tank, but I've only seen a drop of 0.5....how does that work??
a lot of people are mentioning prime.....presumably this is different from nfin cycle??

If you replaced 50% of the water with water that contained 0ppm ammonia, you would expect the ammonia level to drop by 50%.

But you have to remember that over the course of the 24 hours, your fish where producing a constant supply of ammonia. And since your tank seem to be fully stocked, there is quite a bit of ammonia being produced. So ammonia was being added almost as fast as you could remove it.

That is why it is recommended to do at least a 50% water change daily and also to use Prime of Amquel+ to detox ammonia for 24 hours. But you really need to let your rise in ammonia levels be your guide in what percentage of water to change daily. It can also be possible to need to do more that one water change a day to keep the ammonia at lowish levels.

 

I rinse the filter every few days in the water i'm removing to stop it clogging

It is advised not to touch your filter media when cycling. This is because if you continuously wash it during cycling, you will disrupt/slow the process of the bacteria multiplying. Once your tank is cycled, swishing your filter media in tank/dechlorinated water once a month is more than enough. I personally don't touch my media at all unless the flow of my filter is decreased. Havent since I started the tank.

btw, if it its continuously clogging by debris and what not, that is a clear indication you need a larger filter.

 

YOu can get prime on amazon.com



I went through the ordering process and it won't ship out to an international address.

If you can't find one of the other products that would work almost the same, then we can work something out so you can get prime. Just send me a message...............

You need to be looking for something that makes chlorines, cloramines, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates (prime does the lot which is why its my go to product)..............it also provides slimecoat !!!

 

YOu can get prime on amazon.com
You need to be looking for something that makes chlorines, cloramines, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates (prime does the lot which is why its my go to product)..............it also provides slimecoat !!!

Tuffy, unfortunately, prime only temporarily detoxifies ammonia by binding it into cyclic amine, which is non toxic to fish, but because it's an unstable chemical, will break back down into ammonia in about 24 hours.

TMK, if the OP has changed >volume of tank worth of water in <24hrs, and has only gotten a 30% drop in NH3, there's probably some NH3 in the water being used for water changes. While prime would temporarily detoxify this ammonia, it wouldn't permanently remove it from the system.

That said, Octonaut, welcome to FL; I'm sorry that this is why we get to meet you. If there is indeed Cl in your water, then continue to add some sort of water conditioner to your water during water changes, or you can just age it in an open container (24-48 hours, ime, is enough to removed both Cl and the heavy metals which can come from from the insides of older pipes*). The Cl would make cycling your tank very difficult indeed!

It sounds like there are a few things that will help you get a temporary fix to this problem while we help you work out a more permanent one.

1) If you can get a larger filter, preferably something like an aquaclear that has a large space for a lot of bio media, that would help things a whole lot. Don't be afraid to use active carbon when your NH3 readings are so high and you have fish in there. As has been previously stated, your fish aren't going to stop producing waste, and the carbon used in aquarium filters isn't a very high grade, so it's not going to remove enough to the NH3 to starve out your bacteria, but may help keep the concentrations down enough that your fish won't be quite as stressed as they are now.

2) If you can't get a larger filter, if you lower the temerature closer to the lower end of what would be comfortable for your fish, you'll slow down their metabolisms a little. This will cause them to vent a bit less, and slow down the effects of NH3 on their systems. It's not a permanent solution by ANY means, and shouldn't be regarded as such; it's just to buy you some time.

3) As has been previously stated, plants will help a great deal. Preferably something very fast growing, and floating, like duck weed, or horn wort; I'm sure members with more experience with live plants will be able to help more with species suggestions. If you're really hard up, stick some bamboo in there (just make sure the leaves are sticking out), or even drape some spider plant roots in it; this can't last forever but will certainly help remove some of the excess nitrogen and organics from your aquarium while we try to find a real fix.

4) Keep up with your huge water changes. Fresh water will help a lot, and this is really the most important thing to do when having ammonia problems. Water change, water change, water change.

5) Unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with the bacterial additives available in the UK. There are some that work, and some that don't. Nutrafin cycle didn't work for me, and I know it hasn't worked for many people here on this forum. If Tetra Safe Start is available, I'd suggest that, as it's worked for many people, but if not, I'm hoping that one of our UK members will be able to help you with a brand locally available and equally effective.

Best of luck with your fish; we're all keeping our fins and fingers crossed for you.

* Please note: While the Cl will offgas, the heavy metals will NOT. Iron and several others will sink to the bottom of your container. Just don't pour that part into your tank; if you pour carefully the heavy metals will stay at the bottom of your container as you go. You lose an inch or two of water, but if you have heavy metals in your water, it's worth it to cut down on what's going into your tank.

 

the nitrites are rising!!!!! hooray!

I tested for nitrites right before I did today's 50% change and got a reading of 0.3mg/l....things are starting to happen!!! Still no sign of nitrates. After the change it was NO2 0 and ammonia 0.5, which is loads healthier. we're not out of the woods yet, but we're getting there. our little scaly friends are so much more lively looking....they've been so brave!

I checked my tap water and there is definitely no ammonia, and my chlorine levels are also reading 0 (not sure how accurate the test is though). at present I'm using a water conditioner (bob martin neptune cos that's what I can get in Tesco when the lfs is shut) and standing the water for about half an hour (4 kids, 1 crawling....) before adding, being careful about temperature. I have a filter with both carbon and bacterial pads, which came with the tank, and I've laid off the rinsing (a bad habit acquired in the early days of goldfish, now there's something that REALLY poops!) and the nutrafin, and I've bought some live plants....not sure what types....something feathery and something with big leaves (not labeled in any of the local suppliers!) Love the idea of working house plants in....how do you do it?? I've located some prime on Amazon UK, but with the weekend looming it'll be a week before it gets here, and I'm hoping we might be past the worst by then, what do you think ?

Wisecrackerz, I'm trying really hard not to think of your dog!!!!

 

lol, he's sweet, just stinky. It sounds like things are getting to a better spot, I'd say you don't even need Prime if your water has no Cl and no NH3 in it, but it might be a good idea to have some around just in case something happens. I know what you mean about goldfish; I have 3 and they are real poop machines.

As for houseplants, you can get small ones in small pots help up be platforms or suction cups in your tank, so the water just soaks in through the drainage holes in the bottom. Or, you can get HUGE ones, and just set them in your tank, pond plant style. A friend of mine had an indoor tree in a large pot, surrounded by a much larger pot, with fish in it. She didn't have a filter, and she didn't fertilize the tree. It worked out. To top off the "tank"", she'd just pour water onto the dirt (the inner pot stuck up a good 4 or 5" above the water line). Lovely effect.

Or you can do what I've seen done by accident; a spider plant sends out runners, the roots of which find the surface of a tank; all of a sudden the water parameters are perfect? What on earth? Hey, how come your filter has a green wig? And since when did your spider plant double in size? .....ooooooh. Spider plants and bamboo are the only ones I've done it this way with, so I'm hesitant to recommend anything else with out research, but a philodendron might work, too.

 

if you get the prime I would also get a 1ml syringe as you will only need just over a mill to treat your tank.

Prime is available in most UK online fish stores and good old ebay

Mass

 

woo-hoo doing a little happy dance .....this morning's readings (pre WC):
Ammonia: betwwen 0.25 an 0.5,
Nitrite:between 0 and 1
Nitrate:TRACE!!!!!
Now my next question is how do I proceed from here? I'm currently changing 50% daily, and eventually I want to be doing 20-25% weekly. How do I step down? When can I say the tank is stable? how long after reaching stability is it wise to wait until introducing new fish? Come to that CAN I introduce more fish or am I at capacity....maybe another thread for that one? Sorry for bombarding everyone with questions, but I really don't want to throw the tank cycle out again!

 

You want to keep doing the WC's every day until you get the following readings:

Amm - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - whatever...but you really don't want this going over 20.

That would be considered the "stable" cycled tank.

As far as adding new fish it would come down to the size and what you want to add. Remember certain types of fish are schooling fish and really need 6 or so of the species for them to be comfortable.

Looks like you have a 15G...not sure I would add anything else to that besides filling out your schools. You pretty heavily stocked as it is right now. Maybe pick up 2 more tetras and 5 more cory's...that would probably be it and it would be a heavy load so I would consider doing 2x a week PWC.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with jamus34 (sorry jamus34, oh and BTW that tank is only about 12 gallons according to the tank calculator at the bottom of the page). I think you are probably pretty muched fully stocked right now, so I wouldn't add any more fish.

As mentioned, you'll want to continue doing 50% water changes until your parameters are 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite and some nitrates.

As you probably know, with the way the nitrogen cycle works, the more ammonia being produced, the more nitrates you end up with. And since you'll be striving to keep nitrates under 20-30ppm, 25%-30% weekly may not be large enough. You will really need to let your nitrates be you guide.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with jamus34 (sorry jamus34, oh and BTW that tank is only about 12 gallons according to the tank calculator at the bottom of the page). I think you are probably pretty muched fully stocked right now, so I wouldn't add any more fish.

As mentioned, you'll want to continue doing 50% water changes until your parameters are 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite and some nitrates.

As you probably know, with the way the nitrogen cycle works, the more ammonia being produced, the more nitrates you end up with. And since you'll be striving to keep nitrates under 20-30ppm, 25%-30% weekly may not be large enough. You will really need to let your nitrates be you guide.

No problems...I was going off the top of my head...but he/she probably doesn't want incomplete schools cause that will just stress the cory's and tetras.

That said probably one of those species and the Betta should be taken out...species returned and Betta given a 5G home.

 

You will really need to let your nitrates be you guide.

I certainly shall!

readings were completely unchanged from yesterday:
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate trace

didn't have to change the water today. Wow, I could get used to this!!!!
Shall sit by the tank and knit instead