Cyan Bacteria Convert Ammonium In Addition To Ammonia?

I just figured out that my tap water is high in ammonia/ammonium as well as high in nitrates. pH is high as well, but it will be 24 hours before I determine how high.

I plan to use Seachem prime to deal with the high nitrates. (Sub question, I am doing a fishless cycle. Can I put Seachem prime directly into the tank or do I need to do it as a water change?)

As far as I can tell, the API Freshwater Master Test Kit does not distinguish between ammonium and ammonia. The test kit chemicals raise the pH to convert all ammonium to ammonia and tests final total ammonia. However, it's more likely ammonium that is present in tap water because chloramines break down into ammonium, not gaseous ammonia.

Main question: Do cyan bacteria convert ammonium to nitrites, not just ammonia?

 

Prime doesn't do anything for nitrates, it only detoxifies up to 1 ppm of ammonia and nitrites for 24 hours.

I have no idea about ammonium vs. ammonia. But if you have ammonia and nitrates in your water, you may want to figure out another way to supply water for your tank.

Edit: What exactly is your ammonia & nitrate measurements? If you're interested, a RODI unit may be useful if you're water quality is bad enough. stella1979 has good info on that if it's something you want/need to look into

 

Prime doesn't do anything for nitrates, it only detoxifies up to 1 ppm of ammonia and nitrites for 24 hours.

I have no idea about ammonium vs. ammonia. But if you have ammonia and nitrates in your water, you may want to figure out another way to supply water for your tank.

The folks at Seachem prime say that their product deals with both nitrites and nitrates but that they don't talk about the nitrates on the label because they are so much less toxic to fish than nitrites. They also say this:

11-03-2011, 09:18
Re: Prime questions...

Thank you for your questions, Abbeysdad. All water conditioners only have the ability to bind to ammonia, nitrites and/or nitrates for a limited period of time; Prime actually will do this for a longer period than any other product available. You're correct; in an established tank, the beneficial bacteria will consume these things within this time period. However, in a new setup or cycling tank, we recommend dosing Prime every 48 hours to keep the ammonia/nitrites detoxified. As long as you are using Prime as directed, there is no harm in adding it this frequently for an extended period of time. Every 24 hours should not really be necessary, as it will remain active for up to 48 hours. We hope this answers your questions!
Prime questions... - Seachem Support Forums

It's all just fyi. If a tank is working, it's working, I would think .

 

You can put Prime directly into your tank... but if you are doing a fishless cycle, you would only do that to dechlorinate the original water you put in. You wouldn't be doing water changes during a fishless cycle.

Agree with Valerie, it sounds like you may need a more suitable water source for your tank.

 

The folks at Seachem prime say that their product deals with both nitrites and nitrates but that they don't talk about the nitrates on the label because they are so much less toxic to fish than nitrites. They also say this:

11-03-2011, 09:18
Re: Prime questions...

Thank you for your questions, Abbeysdad. All water conditioners only have the ability to bind to ammonia, nitrites and/or nitrates for a limited period of time; Prime actually will do this for a longer period than any other product available. You're correct; in an established tank, the beneficial bacteria will consume these things within this time period. However, in a new setup or cycling tank, we recommend dosing Prime every 48 hours to keep the ammonia/nitrites detoxified. As long as you are using Prime as directed, there is no harm in adding it this frequently for an extended period of time. Every 24 hours should not really be necessary, as it will remain active for up to 48 hours. We hope this answers your questions!
Prime questions... - Seachem Support Forums

It's all just fyi. If a tank is working, it's working, I would think .

I would assume if it only helps with up to 1 ppm of ammonia and nitrites, it wouldn't do much for the nitrates. Regardless, you're not going to want to add Prime every day or two I wouldn't think. That could get expensive.

Did you see my edit on the previous post?

 

Why are you asking about cyanobacteria specifically?
Sorry for the derail, just curious.

 

Prime doesn't do anything for nitrates, it only detoxifies up to 1 ppm of ammonia and nitrites for 24 hours.

You know...I'm not 100% convinced that Prime actually detoxes nitrites. Check this out from the Prime FAQ on SeaChem's website:


Q: How does Prime make a difference in reducing nitrates?
A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.

I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.

=================================================================

One would think that SeaChem's chemists would be able to verify this, rather then just accepting Fanboy/Fangirl feedback.

Also, it looks like they updated their FAQ since last time I visited it, and I have been giving out some bad info. Previously there website left the impression that once ammonia (and maybe nitrite) was detoxed, it stayed detoxed. But apparently, the detoxing of ammonia (and maybe nitrite) is only for 24-48 hours, then it reverts to being toxic.

 

I suspect that that last part may have something to do with pH but I'm not enough of a chemist to say for sure.

 

You know...I'm not 100% convinced that Prime actually detoxes nitrites. Check this out from the Prime FAQ on SeaChem's website:


Q: How does Prime make a difference in reducing nitrates?
A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.

I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.

=================================================================

One would think that SeaChem's chemists would be able to verify this, rather then just accepting Fanboy/Fangirl feedback.

Also, it looks like they updated their FAQ since last time I visited it, and I have been giving out some bad info. Previously there website left the impression that once ammonia (and maybe nitrite) was detoxed, it stayed detoxed. But apparently, the detoxing of ammonia (and maybe nitrite) is only for 24-48 hours, then it reverts to being toxic.

I've never even had Prime, but it is questionable that they aren't able to really verify it.

I've only been in this hobby for almost 3 months, but every bit of info I've heard about Prime was that it only detoxified for 24-48 hours, so maybe it was just changed before me coming into it lol.

 

No, I

I would assume if it only helps with up to 1 ppm of ammonia and nitrites, it wouldn't do much for the nitrates. Regardless, you're not going to want to add Prime every day or two I wouldn't think. That could get expensive.

Did you see my edit on the previous post?

I hadn't seen your edit. I've read some about RODI units and might consider that in the future but I'm starting a new job next week so I'm looking for a simpler solution. I didn't know that it's only 1 ppm of ammonia and nitrites. Is that what Seachem claims? Seachem does say that it binds for 24-48 hours only and then is released. (Not sure exactly what they mean by bind. Sounds like they might not, either?) Your point about using it every 48 hours is well taken--- that would get expensive. I was thinking I'd use it to dechlorinate, since it also works for that, when I do water changes. But I guess that only keeps the nitrates down for 48 hours and what's the point of that.

My tap water levels, which maybe aren't all that bad, are:
ammonia .5-1.0
nitrite 0
nitrate 20 (10-20; I can't really tell a difference between the 10 and 20 colors on the API Freshwater Mater color scale.)

 

You know...I'm not 100% convinced that Prime actually detoxes nitrites. Check this out from the Prime FAQ on SeaChem's website:


Q: How does Prime make a difference in reducing nitrates?
A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.

I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.

=================================================================

One would think that SeaChem's chemists would be able to verify this, rather then just accepting Fanboy/Fangirl feedback.

Also, it looks like they updated their FAQ since last time I visited it, and I have been giving out some bad info. Previously there website left the impression that once ammonia (and maybe nitrite) was detoxed, it stayed detoxed. But apparently, the detoxing of ammonia (and maybe nitrite) is only for 24-48 hours, then it reverts to being toxic.

I’ve been Using Prime since 12/17 and was always told it only detoxifies for 24/48hrs. I was told it detoxifies all 3 though.

 

Why are you asking about cyanobacteria specifically?
Sorry for the derail, just curious.

Because I thought that the cyanobacteria are the ones that convert ammonia to nitrites. But now I see that my source was not good and that I meant nitrosomonas (and nitrosospira, nitrosococcus, and nitrosolobus). In contrast to Nitrobacter (and nitrospina and nitrococcus), which converts the nitrites to nitrates.

 

Because I thought that the cyanobacteria are the ones that convert ammonia to nitrites. But now I see that my source was not good and that I meant nitrosomonas (and nitrosospira, nitrosococcus, and nitrosolobus). In contrast to Nitrobacter (and nitrospina and nitrococcus), which converts the nitrites to nitrates.

Okay, that makes things a little clearer then. The answer then is "yes". The bacteria will break down ammonium but not as quickly as they could ammonia as ammonium requires more energy for them to do so. Part of that is due to them NOT being cyanobacteria - they aren't utilizing photosynthesis to create energy - and ammonia is easier for them to work with.
Hope that helps!

 

It's actually not settled why or how ammonia-oxidising bacteria interact with ammonium ions, which usually occurs in low pH environments. I've copied the post I wrote in another thread about fishless cycling:

Fumasoli, Morgenroth and Udert (2015) indicate that while ammonia- and nitrite-oxidising bacteria are widely observed to have decreasing metabolism in acidic environments, they report that the reasons for this phenomenon are not well understood.

Suzuki, Dular and Kwok (1974) reported that the protonation of ammonia into ammonium ions at low pH is the primary reason for reduced activity, as ammonium is unable to diffuse across cellular membranes for metabolism by ammonia-oxidising bacteria.

However, Wett and Rauch (2003) finds that the low concentration of ammonia at low pH is overstated, and that it is more likely the formation of H2CO3 in acidic media and its volatisation as CO2 reduces the availability of total inorganic carbon necessary for ammonia oxidation. In addition, Gieseke, Tarre, Green and de Beer (2006) suggest that ammonia oxidising bacteria possess ammonium transporters that nevertheless enables the metabolisation of ammonium ions even in acidic environments.

 

I'm no chemist and will readily admit that fact. That said, I know that people use Dr. Tims ammonium choride (? I think that's what it is) to cycle tanks. Either there is some mechanism where the ammonium is being converted to ammonia for the bacteria to work with OR the bacteria are able to process ammonium. Right?

edited to add: Is the ammonium converting to ammonia due to pH? And that's what the product is depending on happening?

 

I'm no chemist and will readily admit that fact. That said, I know that people use Dr. Tims ammonium choride (? I think that's what it is) to cycle tanks. Either there is some mechanism where the ammonium is being converted to ammonia for the bacteria to work with OR the bacteria are able to process ammonium. Right?

edited to add: Is the ammonium converting to ammonia due to pH? And that's what the product is depending on happening?

I'm no chemist, either, obviously, and much of this discussion would have been avoided if I were . I find this page the most helpful yet, https://www.ysi.com/parameters/ammonia . The way I read it, most people use "ammonia" to mean "ammonia and ammonium". The page says that the bacteria process ammonium, not ammonia. Ammonium is what plants need but ammonia can be toxic. And you are completely right, higher pH solutions have higher levels of ammonia due to ammonium converting to ammonia. So as I read it, there is not a necessary mechanism for converting ammonium to ammonia, although pH does do that, but there are just bacteria that handle both, also known as ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB). The second type of bacteria are nitrite-oxidizing bacteria (NOB). Together, AOBs and NOBs are called Nitrifying bacteria.

 

I'm no chemist, either, obviously, and much of this discussion would have been avoided if I were . I find this page the most helpful yet, https://www.ysi.com/parameters/ammonia . The way I read it, most people use "ammonia" to mean "ammonia and ammonium". The page says that the bacteria process ammonium, not ammonia. Ammonium is what plants need but ammonia can be toxic. And you are completely right, higher pH solutions have higher levels of ammonia due to ammonium converting to ammonia. So as I read it, there is not a necessary mechanism for converting ammonium to ammonia, although pH does do that, but there are just bacteria that handle both, also known as ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB). The second type of bacteria are nitrite-oxidizing bacteria (NOB). Together, AOBs and NOBs are called Nitrifying bacteria.

I think the authors of that are guilty of what you mention, using the terms interchangeably. I'm almost certain though that nitrifying bacteria are able to process ammonia more easily than ammonium. Same bacteria can convert both to nitrites, just not able to work as fast. They're fascinating little critters either way.

 

I'm almost certain though that nitrifying bacteria are able to process ammonia more easily than ammonium.

That seems to be the vague consensus of the scientific literature. It's a bit all over the place, because most of the research I found doesn't specifically investigate the relationship between ammonia oxidising bacteria (AOBs) and ammonium/ammonia.

Most of it tries to explain why AOBs tend to get lazy when pH drops low. One author believes it's because ammonium is more common at low pH, and this lead to the conclusion that AOBs can't process ammonium very well (or at all). Another author thinks this isn't the case and it's more likely due lack of inorganic carbon at low pH. Another author believes that certain species of AOBs have unique physiological methods of utilising ammonium.

Same bacteria can convert both to nitrites, just not able to work as fast.

That's right. Some genera of bacteria (I can't remember them off the top of my head) do both ammonia to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate. And research has also shown that some species of Nitrosomonas (an AOB) are facultative: they use oxygen if it's available, but they can oxidise ammonia without it.

 

I think the authors of that are guilty of what you mention, using the terms interchangeably. I'm almost certain though that nitrifying bacteria are able to process ammonia more easily than ammonium. Same bacteria can convert both to nitrites, just not able to work as fast. They're fascinating little critters either way.

I read a bit more and now see how you are right,
"In most natural waters, ammonium is present predominantly
as the positively charged ion, ammonium (NH4+), but the enzyme responsible for the first step of the reaction uses the gaseous
form, NH3, which is usually a minor component at equilibrium."
So I guess there is a mechanism that converts the ammonium to ammonia, but I can't find any information about that step.

 

So I guess there is a mechanism that converts the ammonium to ammonia, but I can't find any information about that step.

This research article by Gieseke et al (2006) is quite useful.

The following paragraph contains the most relevant information:

Physiological mechanisms.Both experimental observations (19, 31, 58) and the hypothetical mechanism of the reaction (61) show that ammonia (not ammonium) is the substrate for the first step of ammonia oxidation catalyzed by ammonia monooxygenase. How is ammonia provided to AMO under such acidic conditions? It is not clear whether the active site of the membrane-bound AMO faces the periplasmic space or the cytoplasm. Ammonia is transported into the cytoplasm by diffusion (34). Despite poor pH regulation properties reported for N. europaea, the internal pH under acidic conditions is still higher that that of the periplasm (19). Consequently, an active site facing the cytoplasm would be advantageous. At pH 4, however, ammonia is virtually absent, and its protonated form, ammonium, would require specific ammonium transporters to enter the cell. Such transporters have been found in the genome of N. europaea (11). Their expression would be indispensable if cells had to cope with acidic conditions. De novo synthesis of such transporters, however, might take considerable time and an additional expense of energy for slow-growing cells of AOB. This is in line with the observation made when cells were shifted from neutral pH to around pH 4 conditions in nitrifying reactors containing biofilms or nitrifying flocs: a few weeks were necessary for nitrification rates to recover to original levels, and lower biomass yields were obtained (60). The dilatoriness of this adaptation also explains why pure cultures of AOB typically do not grow instantly in an acidic medium. A slow shift to acidic conditions is a seemingly more successful strategy.

 

This research article by Gieseke et al (2006) is quite useful.

The following paragraph contains the most relevant information:

Thanks for posting that! It's out of my league, and the best I can make of it is that although ammonia can enter the cytoplasm of the cell by diffusion, ammonium requires active transport (cell membrane mechanical structures). Once inside the cell, the cytoplasm has a higher pH and the ammonium thus converts to ammonia. Something like that?

 

Something like that?

Oh a lot of it was highly incomprehensible to me as well (I'm certainly not a biologist). But your summation is the same gist I got as well. It seems that ammonia-oxidising bacteria also adapt to lower pH over time. This perhaps explains why established tanks with acidic water (6.5-6 pH) seem to have no issues with ammonia/nitrite accumulation: the bacteria colony in the filter media have gradually adapted.

 

What little bit I've learned about nitrosomonas is that unlike say, E. Coli, nitrosomonas uses a large percentage of its energy in feeding itself, that is nitrifying ammonia. It's why it reproduces so slowly. E. ColI on the other hand reproduces like a drunken sailor. E ColI uses compounds (lactose and other sugars that are found where it thrives) that are much easier to convert to energy and so has the luxury of reproducing the way that it does. My suspicion is that the energy needed to un-bind the ionized form (ammonium) into something useful results in a much slower than already snails pace activity.

To continue the analogy, it's similar to watching a snail cross the street and then putting a brick on his back and expecting him to keep up the same pace - it's not going to happen.

 

It's why it reproduces so slowly.

Nearly every research article that I've read on nitrifying bacteria seems to comment on their slow growth and the difficulty of culturing them. I just tend to imagine a scientist in a lab coat staring at a Nitrosomonas culture and yelling at it to grow faster.