Culturing Blackworms

HI all,
I’m ready to start some of my live cultures but I need help/ advice since I’ve never done this.

Today I bought a 1/4 of blackworms from my Lfs and I want to grow them out. I’ve read and watch YouTube videos on how to, but I always find that there are tips and advice the videos are lacking.

So I’m asking those with experience with culturing for advice to help my worms thrive and multiply!


My set up will be in a 3 drawer container set up in the basement. There will be gravel substrate in the drawers and diy sponge filtration. Basically this entire set up is going to be diy style since it is the most cost efficient for me to do this.

I plant on feeding sinking pellets. I’ve read they can go on brown paper towel, but this is food for my fish and potentially worms for my Lfs.... so I’d like to feed the worms err... good food.

I’ll take pictures in a bit, can you guys let me know what you think?




This is the filtration I will be using.

My Lfs sells small sponge filters for $11 which I am not going to pay for. I can special order the same size filters they sell from PetSmart for $4, but since nobody else here sells sponge filters I made my own from jelly jars, sponge, lava rock, new and cycled poly fill, and PEX tubing.

 

do they come with leaches or is that fake news???

 

If you put a 13/64 hole in the top of the pipe the air line tube can be shoved it and coaxed down. Thus it will not slip out

 

do they come with leaches or is that fake news???

Mine did not. Although I do believe it is entirely possible depending upon the source of the worms.

I do not know what farm mine came from. My Lfs orders in bulk and sells them off in $2 portions. Which is basically a pinch of worms.

They may separate them when they get them in. I didn’t think to ask.

 

Here’s the worm tower.

 

So....do they culture in water? I thought they culture like whiteworms, on dirt.

 

So....do they culture in water? I thought they culture like whiteworms, on dirt.

Blackworms are aquatic and will die if outside the water for prolonged time.

White worms (and grindle worms) are terrestrial, but like very damp substrate. They are sort of semI aquatic and can live in water for short periods of time.

Blackworms can be cultured through segmentation. Meaning the worm can be broken in half and each half will grow a new head or anus. This is why I have gravel for substrate. I will take a spoon and stir it and them up which will help break them into bits and give me more worms.

White worms do not reproduce in this manner. Usually breaking them in half will result in death of the worm. (Or at least that’s what I have read). From what I have read they reproduce sexually.

 

Hello! Your set up looks awesome!
I have a successful black worm culture. Mine live in a small plastic fish tank and I did kill a bunch of worms while figuring things out and I’ve also depleted what I had left with feeding my fish. I’m just about to order another 500g and give it a more serious go.. here’s what I learnt...

They like clean water and lots of airation. I have a sponge filter and an air stone

If something is wrong, like water is too dirty, they will start crawling up the side of the tank or be very wiggly in the substrate

If everything is ok then they will be waving their little wormy bodies with their tails in the gravel.

When you feed them, they clump around the food

They like to eat decaying plants (I stuck some Elodia in there that wasn’t doing well.

They are really sensitive to chlorine so I rinse mine with the shower head attachment on our water tank hose

They also will heavily populate the sponge filter if there isn’t enough airation ( found this when the airline had poped off my sponge filter.

Planaria May live in your other fish tanks and kill your black worms.

I’ve been feeding mine sinking pellets

I do a water change everyday pouring off the old water and putting new stuff in, since I had the planaria issue I stopped filling the blackworn tank from my other aquariums and used the tank water, I also thoroughly stirred the gravel with my hands, you ant hurt the worms, they just settle when you’re done and wave their wormy bodies above the gravel again when your done.

Think that’s it! Gonna give them a bigger home when the new worms arrive. My worms are super long! Looks like they arnt braking up much by themselves.. I just read that you can cut them with scissors and they should double in numbers in 4 weeks
This is a pic of my set up and you can see worms crawling up the side... they need a water change

 

Wow wish mine looked like that!

I’ve been using a mix of tank water and RO, about 50/50 weekly. May increase water changes.

I use a power head for water changes and I put it in and blow the worms around and it sucks them up and breaks them up. I haven’t been feeding much so I think that may be the read I’m not seeing much growth. I think I’m going to get some more micro pellets and start feeding that since I can disperse them better.

Thanks for the advice. So far I haven’t noticed any die off... just not much growth. Although I do have some long ones In the top tier since I was treating them as more of a control group in regards to breaking them apart.

 

I bought some top up worms today from a local aquarium and I cut them with scissors. They were in a small tub so I cut the mass in half and I’m half again and I’ll see if they increase! I found mine weren’t breaking up much. I would just observe how they are acting in regards to water changes. If they’re crawling up the sides then water change and if not then don’t ‍♀️ Here are my happy worms after a water change, I’m looking forward to ordering 500grams again! And upsizing to a bigger tub

 

Very nice setups. Are you guys cultivating them for all kinds of fish and other inhabitants or certain species of fish? how do you remove a " clump " to feed? Tweezers? Baster? other means? how beneficial are they to what your feeding them to diet?

 

Very nice setups. Are you guys cultivating them for all kinds of fish and other inhabitants or certain species of fish? how do you remove a " clump " to feed? Tweezers? Baster? other means? how beneficial are they to what your feeding them to diet?

My goal with these guys was to start a breeding project of sorts. Worms are good for gut loading fish during spawning or to get them into proper spawning condition. These worms are also a good alternative for wild caught fish. I would really like to keep pygmy sunfish (Elassoma okeefenokee or Elassoma evergladei) someday and I've read they can be finicky eaters.

The worms aren't a comprehensive source of food, however good for treats, rotation into regular diet with other foods or spawning. The fish mainly receive fat and protein. I've read mixed reviews on the nutritional value of the worms claiming that they are high in fat and protein and some that claim they are low in fats and protein and offer little benefit to the fish. I'd say the reality is they are somewhere in the middle and can be used in a regular diet, though I don't think I will be feeding every day, maybe one day a week, perhaps the day before I fast my fish (due to class/work schedule I'm not able to be home to feed the fish for one day a week).

I had intentions of selling any left over stock back to my LFS. They occasionally have issues getting worms in the winter months and where interested to see how things go for me in regards to a potential source of worms. Obviously it won't be a huge source, but they told me something is better than nothing at all.

You can entice them to congregate with food then remove with a turkey baster or tweezers depending upon how many you need. I find a turkey baster works well, just have to give them a little stir at times to break their pile up enough to suck them through the opening.

 

I bought some top... Here are my happy worms after a water change, I’m looking forward to ordering 500grams again! And upsizing to a bigger tub

Question: how cool do you keep your worms?
I keep mine in the basement which keeps water about 65-68. Everything I have come across says this is right for them. I'm just wondering how cool is too cool myself in regards to reproduction. Likewise how hot is too hot? I kind of want to experiment, but am also afraid to loose my worms...have you found anything in your experience?

I also just realized that your worms are out and lights are on. Mine seem to dart when the lights are turned on. Though if there is plenty of food, not as much... It could be that I'm using a flashlight and it is too intense. These guys are definitely photosensitive...

 

Hi! I have a question..I tried culturing some blackworms and they were going good for about 3 weeks. Then I came in one day and they had all disintegrated. I keep them in a 2.5 gallon plastic tank, hob filter, gravel substrate and use aged water (usually leave in bottled water container at least 2 days). I do water changes once a week or when needed. They are kept in my office and at room temperature. Sometimes it may get hot in my office but the water won't get above 78 or below 70. Any ideas?

 

do they come with leaches or is that fake news???

I ordered mine direct from a farm “blackworms Australia” and they were filthy as ****... but cheaper and I can order a large quantity (250g) worms from LFs we’re spar clean. I’m guessing the LFS orders through their fish supplier and maybe the worms are kept inside. I know the farm keeps them in a shed and brings in water from a local stream. I just washed them and picked out the leeches

 

Hi! I have a question..I tried culturing some blackworms and they were going good for about 3 weeks. Then I came in one day and they had all disintegrated. I keep them in a 2.5 gallon plastic tank, hob filter, gravel substrate and use aged water (usually leave in bottled water container at least 2 days). I do water changes once a week or when needed. They are kept in my office and at room temperature. Sometimes it may get hot in my office but the water won't get above 78 or below 70. Any ideas?

Not enough water changes and maybe got too hot?

 

Question: how cool do you keep your worms?
I keep mine in the basement which keeps water about 65-68. Everything I have come across says this is right for them. I'm just wondering how cool is too cool myself in regards to reproduction. Likewise how hot is too hot? I kind of want to experiment, but am also afraid to loose my worms...have you found anything in your experience?

I also just realized that your worms are out and lights are on. Mine seem to dart when the lights are turned on. Though if there is plenty of food, not as much... It could be that I'm using a flashlight and it is too intense. These guys are definitely photosensitive...

Sorry for the late reply! My worms are in the kitchen so it’s just the normal house light and daylight not a light directly on them. They definitely come out more when you drop some food in them. I’m in Australia and your max temp is 20 Celsius. They go into dormancy and can survive in the fridge at 4 degrees Celsius which I would say is too cold. Our day temps are about 27 degrees so I think my water is about 25 degrees and they are reproducing well BUT I did buy some top up worms from my LFS, 60grams and I got a pair of scissors and I cut them! And they have gone gang busters!

I read on the internet if you grab a ball of worms and cut it into 4-6 times, in one month your culture will double. And it really has! I felt bad cutting them but it works!

 

So....do they culture in water? I thought they culture like whiteworms, on dirt.

Nope they’re aquatic!

 

Very nice setups. Are you guys cultivating them for all kinds of fish and other inhabitants or certain species of fish? how do you remove a " clump " to feed? Tweezers? Baster? other means? how beneficial are they to what your feeding them to diet?

I’m feeding fussy discus fish. Mainly it’s for when I buy new discus, they are well known for having hunger strikes when you first buy them and at $60-100 per fish you don’t want them dying because of a hunger strike. I just bought 3 new baby discus at $60 each and yup hunger strike so I fed them worms for the first 3 weeks alongside other foods and they’re now just eating freeze dried blackworms and I’m frozen blood worms. If I didn’t have live blackworms they would have died by now, 3 weeks without eating. Our older adult discus eat anything we throw in. They’re just butt holes when you first buy them. Apparently black worms shouldn’t be the only thing you feed your fish because they’re not nutritionally complete but they’re great for hunger strikes and treats and the colours of our discus are amazing since feeding live worms. I’ll have to post some pictures

 

I’m feeding fussy discus fish. Mainly it’s for when I buy new discus, they are well known for having hunger strikes when you first buy them and at $60-100 per fish you don’t want them dying because of a hunger strike. I just bought 3 new baby discus at $60 each and yup hunger strike so I fed them worms for the first 3 weeks alongside other foods and they’re now just eating freeze dried blackworms and I’m frozen blood worms. If I didn’t have live blackworms they would have died by now, 3 weeks without eating. Our older adult discus eat anything we throw in. They’re just butt holes when you first buy them. Apparently black worms shouldn’t be the only thing you feed your fish because they’re not nutritionally complete but they’re great for hunger strikes and treats and the colours of our discus are amazing since feeding live worms. I’ll have to post some pictures

Oh and I use a turkey Baster to harvest. If I have heaps of worms I’ll use my fingers. But I put some food in with the worms and they will clump around it then I suck them up with the turkey baster

 

Hi! I have a question..I tried culturing some blackworms and they were going good for about 3 weeks. Then I came in one day and they had all disintegrated. I keep them in a 2.5 gallon plastic tank, hob filter, gravel substrate and use aged water (usually leave in bottled water container at least 2 days). I do water changes once a week or when needed. They are kept in my office and at room temperature. Sometimes it may get hot in my office but the water won't get above 78 or below 70. Any ideas?

I’m not sure. As Rebecca said it could be temperature or water quality.

They appreciate clean and highly oxygenated water. How much surface tension is created with rippling from the hob? If the surface of the water is smooth it *could* be an oxygen issue. I realize that you have them in a small container so increasing water movement in a container that small may be difficult to establish without blowing everything around.

Because the container is so small there is very little waste dilution so I suspect a water quality issue beyond anything. You may see some improvement ( if there are any left) if you try increasing water changes to every other day or every three days.

 

I’m not sure. As Rebecca said it could be temperature or water quality.

They appreciate clean and highly oxygenated water. How much surface tension is created with rippling from the hob? If the surface of the water is smooth it *could* be an oxygen issue. I realize that you have them in a small container so increasing water movement in a container that small may be difficult to establish without blowing everything around.

Because the container is so small there is very little waste dilution so I suspect a water quality issue beyond anything. You may see some improvement ( if there are any left) if you try increasing water changes to every other day or every three days.

Thank you! I will start doing that and maybe buy a larger container.

 

Thank you! I will start doing that and maybe buy a larger container.

One more question... If I have them in gravel and do the water changes will emptying the container and the gravel smashing them kill them or just break them up? I only have a small layer on the bottom.

 

One more question... If I have them in gravel and do the water changes will emptying the container and the gravel smashing them kill them or just break them up? I only have a small layer on the bottom.

Gravel moving around will help break them up. That's how we get them to “multiply”. Blackworms can undergo segmentation in which they can be split in half and they will regrow a new head or anus. Rebecca cut hers with scissors.

I try to stir mine with a spoon or the turkey baster every so often. To help facilitate this. When doing water changes I use a power head to transfer water. I will suck out the water below the lip of the jar on the filter and let the water recycle in the container. I’ll move the output tube around to stir up worms and suck them through the power head. This helps break them to bits.

I’ve done this three or four times now and I have a few small worms. I’ll probably skip this for a few weeks and let them grow.

I too have a thin layer of gravel so they have something to crawl around in. It also helps collect food and makes it easily accessible to them. You’ll be perfectly fine.

 

Rebecca1985,

I just ran the power head through my last control batch. I’ve been hesitant to do so but the other trays are still alive.

Anyway...while waiting for worms to settle so I could exchange cloudy water I noticed where very tiny white squiggly worm babies!! At least I hope that’s what they are...They look like microworms.

Have you noticed anything like this in any of your worm cultures?

If these guys are reproducing sexually then I think I’m going to have to rethink how I change my water. I like to stir up excess debris to get fouling food out, but in doing so I also stir up these tiny worms... really there isn’t any fouling food, I just see tiny specs floating around. Although I guess that’s what my sponge filter is for, right? *facepalm*

Do you just decant the water? Or do you stir up water then pour off?

 

I a

Thank you! I will start doing that and maybe buy a larger container.

gree now I think of it, probably water quality! I change my tin EVERY day, if I don’t I get worms dying

 

Rebecca1985,

I just ran the power head through my last control batch. I’ve been hesitant to do so but the other trays are still alive.

Anyway...while waiting for worms to settle so I could exchange cloudy water I noticed where very tiny white squiggly worm babies!! At least I hope that’s what they are...They look like microworms.

Have you noticed anything like this in any of your worm cultures?

If these guys are reproducing sexually then I think I’m going to have to rethink how I change my water. I like to stir up excess debris to get fouling food out, but in doing so I also stir up these tiny worms... really there isn’t any fouling food, I just see tiny specs floating around. Although I guess that’s what my sponge filter is for, right? *facepalm*

Do you just decant the water? Or do you stir up water then pour off?

The white squiggly worms might be bad... I have a “planaria” infestation.. they came from my discus tank which is quite dirty because we heavily feed them to make them grow (I do change their water every 3 days or so and have a canister filter) anyway we had some glass shrimp in the discus tank and all the sudden they were gone... I wondered if it had something to do with the black worms. Then there were cherry shrimp disappearing from their separate tank... so I googled black worms and cherry shrimp and came across the write up where that dude was talking about cutting them to double the numbers.. he also said he had some worms die from planaria.. googled planaria... tiny white worms/flat worms that come from dirty tanks and kill shrimp... look on the glass of discus tank and black worms... yup tiny white worms... .

So! You can get a product called “no planaria” and it’s $45 or so. Shrimp safe and fish safe... is it black worm safe??? I’ll soon find out. So I ordered new worms and decided I’ll feed all of this culture to my discus and then keep the tub super clean and maybe try the chemical in their tank when I buy it.I'm going to set the new worms up (arriving on the 29th) in a draw system like yours but just gonna do air stones and change their water everyday. Then I can cut them and feed the fish from 1 tray while the other trays multiply. That’s the plan. Hope it’s not planaria for you cause it sucks! Doesn’t hurt the fish unless you have very large number then they can get in their gills and irritate them

 

The white squiggly worms might be bad... I have a “planaria” infestation...

I really hope this isn’t the case. I haven’t noticed any thing like it in the main tank. I decided it would be best to not use water out of the 20 that sits above.


I’ve seen planaria before, though not in my tanks. They may have been older however because I thought they looked more like leeches or flukes... the tiny worms I’m seeing are thinner than a hair, are round and roughly 3mm long.

Guess I’ll have to keep an eye on them.

 

Yes they are supposed to look like flukes and mine are tiny tiny too I thought that’s what google said they were tiny?? I assume it must be planaria because all my shrimp are dead, and some of my black worms are white and not looking great. They are still alive just not happy. I just so lots of water changes to keep the numbers down and waiting till I can buy the “no planaria” I took some pics of my discus to show you. What fish are you feeding your blackworms to?

 

Yes they are supposed to look like flukes and mine are tiny tiny too I thought that’s what google said they were tiny?? I assume it must be planaria because all my shrimp are dead, and some of my black worms are white and not looking great. They are still alive just not happy. I just so lots of water changes to keep the numbers down and waiting till I can buy the “no planaria” I took some pics of my discus to show you. What fish are you feeding your blackworms to?

The worms still seem fine. Definitely keeping a watchful eye though. I googled and watched some videos on YouTube. They look like they can range in size, but are bigger than hydra full grown. They almost look like grains of rice in the videos.

Your discus are beautiful! I always love seeing pictures of these fish, though not one I’ll end up keeping myself. I’ve read a lot about them being... picky and particular so I appreciate from afar . I plan to start giving them to my guppies.

I’m sort of toying around trying to breed them and see what their genetics hold. I’m just waiting for my “fry” to reach maturity. They aren’t really fry anymore and are starting to mature but they are my babies. Their parents did not survive freak a bacterial outbreak in my 29. Their mom gave birth and passed two days later. All of the fish had some type of hemorrhagic septicemia. I should mention that I got the parents (and all fish) at roughly the same time and I had them for 3 weeks before things went 180...no more PetSmart purchases. I had to break the tank down, pitch my large piece of driftwood and I soaked the tank in alcohol and bleached all the filter components. It’s been empty since....

I also plan to start breeding Cory cats. So they will be fed these guys as well. I have two weeks before I can swing things into full action. Just have to pass final exams and I’m done with this semester!


I will probably give some to my tetras as well.

Up through now I’ve been trying to see IF I can get them to grow so I haven’t been feeding them. Since they aren’t dying I think it’s safe to say I can feed without running through my entire stock.

 

The worms still seem fine. Definitely keeping a watchful eye though. I googled and watched some videos on YouTube. They look like they can range in size, but are bigger than hydra full grown. They almost look like grains of rice in the videos.

Your discus are beautiful! I always love seeing pictures of these fish, though not one I’ll end up keeping myself. I’ve read a lot about them being... picky and particular so I appreciate from afar . I plan to start giving them to my guppies.

I’m sort of toying around trying to breed them and see what their genetics hold. I’m just waiting for my “fry” to reach maturity. They aren’t really fry anymore and are starting to mature but they are my babies. Their parents did not survive freak a bacterial outbreak in my 29. Their mom gave birth and passed two days later. All of the fish had some type of hemorrhagic septicemia. I should mention that I got the parents (and all fish) at roughly the same time and I had them for 3 weeks before things went 180...no more PetSmart purchases. I had to break the tank down, pitch my large piece of driftwood and I soaked the tank in alcohol and bleached all the filter components. It’s been empty since....

I also plan to start breeding Cory cats. So they will be fed these guys as well. I have two weeks before I can swing things into full action. Just have to pass final exams and I’m done with this semester!


I will probably give some to my tetras as well.

Up through now I’ve been trying to see IF I can get them to grow so I haven’t been feeding them. Since they aren’t dying I think it’s safe to say I can feed without running through my entire stock.

How are your worms going? I have these tiny worms on the sides of my worm container, I don’t think they are planaria maybe they are micro worms? I wanted to tell you I’ve had a great rate of reproduction with cutting the worms! So my new batch of worms will be arriving Tuesday so I decided to feed the original culture to my baby discus until it was all used up. So week 1 I did that. I was able to round up a coin sized amount that was left and put it in a little cup and cut it into tiny pieces I put them back in the container and cared for them as per usual, feeding them flakes, algae wafers and changing water daily with fresh rain water (we have a rain water tank) and I harvested them yesterday and I’ve got more then double what I stared with!

So when the new worms arrive,I’m going to set up 4 large shallow tubs all with an air stone, I’ll split the 250g equally into each tub, I’ll cut 2 of the worm tubs into a million bits and I’ll leave the other 2 as a control. Change the water daily and I’ve started feeding my original culture cat food which they seem to love. And I’ll let you know what happens! Hope your study is going well!

 

How are your worms going? I have these tiny worms on the sides of my worm container, I don’t think they are planaria maybe they are micro worms...

My air pump stopped working sometime last week. I walked down and didn’t hear bubbling and got a bit excited. Worms were crawling up the sides. Tons of baby worms in the bottom two drawers.

I had to swap pumps off the 20 to run the worms. I don’t know whether I should return the pump to the store or contact the company since it’s under warranty. If the store takes it great otherwise the company will want shipping etc to fix an unknown problem and frankly I need a new pump now. I’ve taken work it to study for finals so I have to watch my spending because my next set of bills are coming due.

I killed all my chilI rasboras using tetra algae control to nuke this green hair algae that came out of nowhere. I have one left. Never ever using that stuff again. I was going to set them up in a tub to breed outside. I’m torn about it.

As for the worms I think I managed to get to them in time. Still a bunch of wiggly bodies. When I started my filters up I was taken away at by the smell. I don’t know how long they were off but the sponges stank. I think they were off for 2 days because my worms were still alive.

I’m going to feed some worms tonight for the first time and see how it goes.

As for the microwave sized worms. True micro worms are nematodes. They won’t survive fully submerged to my knowledge. Additionally I’ve never kept a cutler so how I’d get them in there idk, especially since use fish food which has been baked or dried so it should be sterile. I think they may be sexually reproducing.

 

Quick update:

Needed a new turkey baster so went to Meijer and they allowed me to exchange the air pump.

Question, although you are in Australia are there any air pumps you recommend?

The only one that I have found that I have liked are by fusion. They have a dial that allows the output to be dialed down or up for a little bit of a custom airflow.

This is the first one that has broken on me, although I’ve only ever used 3 so... take that with a grain of salt.

I think I’m going to have worms growing in the 10gal. Maybe not. I don’t know if the tetras have quite figured it out. The 2 neons have. The ember tetras are being slow to catch on. Even the chilI rasboras knows it’s food, it’s just too small to take a bite. I may have to cut the worms up even smaller to feed. They seem to be acting just a little bit different today. I decided to add rooibos tea to the water so maybe that is it.

The guppies figured it out pretty fast. But they are pigs, so go figure.

 

Oh no!!! I’ve had a few occasions when the tube has popped off my sponge filter (usually overnight) and in the morning they STINK!! I’d say it was the dead worms making most of the smell in your case. I would take it to the store and hope for the best!

Are you keeping the main culture In the top drawer and the babies fall down into the bottom draws? I think mine might be producing sexually too... I found another article on a fish forum (there is next to no info on keeping these worms) and it said that the worms need to be 5 inches or more to produce sexually and that most cultures the worms don’t get longer then 2-3 inches. MY worms before I cut them were really long, like a few were 7inches! So maybe they are babies?? They look so tiny and white though.

That’s a bummer about the rasboras I learned through trying lots of products that you have to just fix your water perimeters to get rid of algae . I’ve had fish tanks for years and worked in a pet shop that had loads of fish but I’ve never educated myself on the nitrogen cycle and realised my nitrates are really high

 

Sorry I started this reply a few days ago and got busy and didn’t finish it. My new shipment of worms arrived. I put them in a bigger tub and they were climbing up the sides for some reason even after a water change.. turns out my air pump wasn’t strong enough. So I put some stronger bubbles in there and they are happy again. I’m studying and have 2 assignments and 1 resubmission to do so been very busy. I don’t go for any particular brand of air pump but I’ve had one with a dial to turn it up and down and that was great. Just waiting on 2 x double air pumps to arrive on Monday so I can split the new shipment of worms into 4 tubs. 2 tubs I’ll cut the worms up and 2 tubs I won’t and see which produces the most worms!

 

Hey, no worries about the reply. I’ve busy with final exams the past week. Finished my last for the semester today. I had a dual pump. I think my issue may have been user error. It had a dual diaphragm. I have 3 filters running, 2 on one outlet and 1 on the other. I closed a valve on the one with one which may have caused uneven pressure and worn the diaphragm out. This time I left the unused valve open so it can bleed air and hopefully keep pressure and wear even across the entire thing.