Crypt Spiralis Leaves Curling

magnusjones

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Hello,

I've been planting my 55 gallon with crypts. After they're done melting back, my crypt spiralis leaves start growing and then start curling. I've never seen this before. Can someone tell me why this is happening?

Thanks, Magnus
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sfsamm

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That's a deficiency of some sort. I dont have my cheater sheet which I rely quite heavily on but I believe off the top of my head that it's an imbalance with either calcium or magnesium... check your gh levels if its under 5 degrees (100ppm) that's what I'd start with.
 

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Hi @magnusjones

Without water parameters (pH, dKH, dGH, ppm NO3) it is just an educated guess however I suspect you have either insufficient calcium in your water (most likely) or an excess of magnesium of ammonia. Do you have soft water where you live? Do you have a water softener in your home?

To correct the issue I suggest adding Seachem Equilibrium once a week when you do your 50% water changes. Do an initial dose of one teaspoon per 10 gallons. Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change add 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added. This will increase the hardness of your tank by 2.0 dGH, and add calcium, potassium, and iron to your tank.
 
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magnusjones

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Hi @magnusjones

Without water parameters (pH, dKH, dGH, ppm NO3) it is just an educated guess however I suspect you have either insufficient calcium in your water (most likely) or an excess of magnesium of ammonia. Do you have soft water where you live? Do you have a water softener in your home?

To correct the issue I suggest adding Seachem Equilibrium once a week when you do your 50% water changes. Do an initial dose of one teaspoon per 10 gallons. Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change add 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added. This will increase the hardness of your tank by 2.0 dGH, and add calcium, potassium, and iron to your tank.
Here's the confusing part. I live in a suburb of Minneapolis and my water is literally liquid rock.
 

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Hi @magnusjones

I'm not sure exactly where you live but this is what I have learned about Minneapolis municipal water:
The city of Minneapolis, as well as a number of its suburbs, get their water from the Mississippi River, which is much softer than water taken directly from the ground. For example the water hardness level in Minneapolis is 4-4.5 grains (on a scale of 25) compared to 17-20 grains in the city of Minnetonka.
A water hardness of 4.0 - 4.5 grains per gallon is roughly equivalent to 4.0 - 4.5 a hardness of 4.0 - 4.5 dGH which is soft water. I suggest adding some Seachem Equilibrium to your tank. Do an initial dose of one (1) teaspoon per 10 gallons. Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change add one (1) teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added. This should increase the hardness by about 2.0 dGH and add about 10.7 ppm of calcium (Ca) and 3.1 ppm of magnesium (Mg) along with some manganese and iron. Then watch the new leaves as they emerge; do not watch the existing leaves they will not improve. It will take a few weeks for improvement to show up but do the new leaves look straighter? Maybe even a little greener and healthier! If the problem is lessened however there is still some 'hooking' we may need to increase the dosage further.....but not until you get a hardness test kit to check your dKH and dGH. API makes a good one that I use.
 

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Here's the confusing part. I live in a suburb of Minneapolis and my water is literally liquid rock.
I have kh of 10 and gh of 16, pretty hard water but I actually have to add calcium if I'm running high light and densely planted for this reason.... because of the imbalance between ca and mg.
 
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magnusjones

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Hi @magnusjones

I'm not sure exactly where you live but this is what I have learned about Minneapolis municipal water:


A water hardness of 4.0 - 4.5 grains per gallon is roughly equivalent to 4.0 - 4.5 a hardness of 4.0 - 4.5 dGH which is soft water. I suggest adding some Seachem Equilibrium to your tank. Do an initial dose of one (1) teaspoon per 10 gallons. Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change add one (1) teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added. This should increase the hardness by about 2.0 dGH and add about 10.7 ppm of calcium (Ca) and 3.1 ppm of magnesium (Mg) along with some manganese and iron. Then watch the new leaves as they emerge; do not watch the existing leaves they will not improve. It will take a few weeks for improvement to show up but do the new leaves look straighter? Maybe even a little greener and healthier! If the problem is lessened however there is still some 'hooking' we may need to increase the dosage further.....but not until you get a hardness test kit to check your dKH and dGH. API makes a good one that I use.
Ok

I'm actually on a well, where the water is very hard but I also have a water softener hooked up. This is probably why my gh is so low.
 

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Hi @magnusjones

Water softeners are a whole different issue. The operate by removing calcium from the water and replacing it with either sodium (if sodium chloride / aka salt) is used as the softening agent or with potassium if potassium chloride is the softening agent; the chemical used is typically the choice of the user. Either way this results not only in a lack of calcium but also an excess of either sodium or potassium in the processed water.
Water softeners use a process called ion exchange to remove things like calcium, magnesium, iron, and manganese – replacing them with sodium ions.
The lack of calcium is likely causing the 'hooking downward' of the leaf tips, it is the most common symptom of a calcium deficiency.
I. Symptoms appearing first or most severely on new growth (root and shoot tips, new leaves, flowers, fruits, buds)

A. Terminal bud usually dies. Symptoms on new growth.

2. Necrosis occurs at tip and margin of leaves causing a definite hook at leaf tip.
Calcium is essential for the growth of shoot and root tips (meristems). Growing point dies. Margins of young leaves are scalloped and abnormally green and, due to inhibition of cell wall formation, the leaf tips may be "gelatinous" and stuck together inhibiting leaf unfolding. Stem structure is weak and peduncle collapse or shoot topple may occur. Roots are stunted. Premature shedding of fruit and buds is common. Downward curl of leaf tips (hooking) occurs near terminal bud. ammonium or magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants... calcium deficiency

Differentiating between calcium and boron deficiency symptoms: When calcium is deficient, there is a characteristic hooking of the youngest leaf tips. However, when boron is deficient, the breakdown occurs at the bases of the youngest leaves. Death of the terminal growing points is the final result in both cases.
Adding the Seachem Equilbrium will replace the missing calcium and magnesium however the excess sodium (Na) may cause you additional problems with plant growth according to Mulders Nutrient Chart, specifically potassium, calcium, and magnesium. You may find that you may need to use a mix some non-softened water (most outdoor hose bibs are not on the softener) along with softened water and Equilibrium. Hope this helps! -Roy
 
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magnusjones

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Hi @magnusjones

Water softeners are a whole different issue. The operate by removing calcium from the water and replacing it with either sodium (if sodium chloride / aka salt) is used as the softening agent or with potassium if potassium chloride is the softening agent; the chemical used is typically the choice of the user. Either way this results not only in a lack of calcium but also an excess of either sodium or potassium in the processed water.


The lack of calcium is likely causing the 'hooking downward' of the leaf tips, it is the most common symptom of a calcium deficiency.


Adding the Seachem Equilbrium will replace the missing calcium and magnesium however the excess sodium (Na) may cause you additional problems with plant growth according to Mulders Nutrient Chart, specifically potassium, calcium, and magnesium. You may find that you may need to use a mix some non-softened water (most outdoor hose bibs are not on the softener) along with softened water and Equilibrium. Hope this helps! -Roy
Thanks, this helped a lot.

I know that the hardness of the water from the well is very high which means that the concentration of Na ions must be very high as well after the softening process. I keep some fish that would not be very tolerant of these conditions like angelfish and rams, and they're thriving. I also have a Black Ghost Knife that uses electricity to navigate. If there is high concentration of Na the water, wouldn't that really stress him out due to the conductivity? He doesn't look stressed. These are just examples of why I'm confused about the Na ions in the water. Could this also affect the growth of my plants?
 

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Hi @magnusjones,

You asked what could be causing your issues, sodium can certainly be the cause. Plants are like fish, different species can tolerate different conditions. You could try adding some calcium and magnesium and see if the new growth that emerges improves or not. I can only report what scientists have found regarding the effects of sodium on plant growth; possibly you can find another cause if you research the matter further.
 

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When getting into the itty bits that have been described above what I found worked best for me is completely eliminating all premixed fertilizers and going to individual fertilizers. I researched EI and had huge conversations about my particulars which are obviously different than yours, tried a lot of things and eventually was able to balance out my tanks which of course all run a bit different than each other.

Quick don't waste your time on these rabbit holes if you want to go there :
1 - don't try to mix different concentrations, mix to EI and then dose less quantity or less frequently....
2 - make sure you are using and iron chelation that works properly for your water (there's more than one)
3 - remember while you read some super snoozer papers on this topic - its wickedly inexpensive and if you spend $40 on dry ferts and $40 on the measuring and containers you probably won't spend anymore for 2 years or more if you're dosing less than 400 gallons of water... I spent around $60 to get set added a couple things later to maybe $80 I had over 400g now I'm only about 150g and I haven't purchased anything other than potassium in over 2 years and still don't need to.
4 - be patient everything takes a few weeks to take effect in plants.
5 - once you're going its crazy easy to maintain I wouldn't go back to premixed bottled stuff for nothing. I use thrive when I'm lazy and if I have plants in QT or something it's based on ei and a good stand in when life gets busy.

Good luck!
I also started down this path with crypt curling.... I forgot to mention that but weird water and crypts.... they love me now and grow absolutely massive. EI ftw
 
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magnusjones

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When getting into the itty bits that have been described above what I found worked best for me is completely eliminating all premixed fertilizers and going to individual fertilizers. I researched EI and had huge conversations about my particulars which are obviously different than yours, tried a lot of things and eventually was able to balance out my tanks which of course all run a bit different than each other.

Quick don't waste your time on these rabbit holes if you want to go there :
1 - don't try to mix different concentrations, mix to EI and then dose less quantity or less frequently....
2 - make sure you are using and iron chelation that works properly for your water (there's more than one)
3 - remember while you read some super snoozer papers on this topic - its wickedly inexpensive and if you spend $40 on dry ferts and $40 on the measuring and containers you probably won't spend anymore for 2 years or more if you're dosing less than 400 gallons of water... I spent around $60 to get set added a couple things later to maybe $80 I had over 400g now I'm only about 150g and I haven't purchased anything other than potassium in over 2 years and still don't need to.
4 - be patient everything takes a few weeks to take effect in plants.
5 - once you're going its crazy easy to maintain I wouldn't go back to premixed bottled stuff for nothing. I use thrive when I'm lazy and if I have plants in QT or something it's based on ei and a good stand in when life gets busy.

Good luck!
I also started down this path with crypt curling.... I forgot to mention that but weird water and crypts.... they love me now and grow absolutely massive. EI ftw
I'm using easy green and osmocote right now with eco complete in my 55 gallon. Could you give me me an idea of all the separate dry ferts I will need and where I could get them? This all seems very confusing to me right now. Thanks!
 

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I'm using easy green and osmocote right now with eco complete in my 55 gallon. Could you give me me an idea of all the separate dry ferts I will need and where I could get them? This all seems very confusing to me right now. Thanks!
I recommend to start reading about EI.

A couple good place to start that provide great over all 10,000 foot overview to get you started are below. I'm not endorsing any brand or trying to promote anything other what I found helpful getting started so hopefully I'm not breaking any rules here....

Planted Tank Fertilizer: Estimative Index (EI) Fertilization Method

Dosing Instructions

What you need to know about EI plant feeding

Also searching the planted tank forum for particular issues is quite helpful.
The Planted Tank Forum The Planted Tank Forum - Powered by vBulletin
 
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magnusjones

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I recommend to start reading about EI.

A couple good place to start that provide great over all 10,000 foot overview to get you started are below. I'm not endorsing any brand or trying to promote anything other what I found helpful getting started so hopefully I'm not breaking any rules here....

Planted Tank Fertilizer: Estimative Index (EI) Fertilization Method

Dosing Instructions

What you need to know about EI plant feeding

Also searching the planted tank forum for particular issues is quite helpful.
The Planted Tank Forum The Planted Tank Forum - Powered by vBulletin
So this will be fine even though I only sometimes run my diy co2 and have medium lightning? My plants are jungle Val, Anarchis Elodea, cryptocoryne spiralis, cryptocoryne wenditi brown, and a few other miscellaneous ones. Basically I'm asking if you think this method would still work with my current setup.
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I have medium light no co2 at all. I don't do full EI but it's how I learned (a lot of trial and error and reading/research) and finally zeroed in on what works for me without a full EI routine. But theoretically if all the nutrients are there and nothing is lacking then the plants thrive and algae doesn't. Huge water changes every week are required though, it's kind of your reset. I know now a days everyone is all boohoo on them but for 30+ years I've done them in all variety of conditions and all types of fish and I have never had an issue with large water changes so long as everything else was as it should be lol
 
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magnusjones

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I have medium light no co2 at all. I don't do full EI but it's how I learned (a lot of trial and error and reading/research) and finally zeroed in on what works for me without a full EI routine. But theoretically if all the nutrients are there and nothing is lacking then the plants thrive and algae doesn't. Huge water changes every week are required though, it's kind of your reset. I know now a days everyone is all boohoo on them but for 30+ years I've done them in all variety of conditions and all types of fish and I have never had an issue with large water changes so long as everything else was as it should be lol
Same here. I have always done huge water changes. It's just the way I've always done things. I think "Why not just do an 80% water change every 2 weeks instead". As long as I have the python out, why would I stop at 50%? My angels, gbrs, and black ghost knife are completely fine, being sensitive to water quality and chemistry.
 
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