Contradictory Plant Deficiencies And High Nutrient Readings

Bbunkie01

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Tldr: plants showing classic signs of CO2, potassium, and nitrate deficiency despite ample availability of all of the above.

Affected plants:

H. compacta
Deficiency symptoms: classic pinholes in leaves (K deficiency), stark white undersides (CO2 or NO3 deficiency), inevitable transparency and leaf death. Only visible on old growth.

Water lily
Pinholes on both submerged leaves and lily pads, pinholes inevitably grow bigger and black at the edges, leaf death. Only visible on old growth.

Wisteria
Minor BBA on edges of old growth, stark white undersides on both new and old growth.

These are the most egregiously affected plants. Several other plant species consistently exhibit shrunken, unhealthy old growth despite healthy and vibrant new growth.

Some very important tank details and parameters:

TANK DETAILS

Size: 75 gallon community freshwater

Age: 3.5 months

Filtration: Fluval 406 and Fluval 306

CO2: Pressurized delivered via inline atomizer on the 406

Lighting: two 48inch Finnex 24/7 CC LEDs set to max intensity for 7 hour photo period. CO2 comes on two hours before lights, shuts off one hour before lights off.

Fertilization: EI method dry ferts.
- 3/4tsp KNO3, 3/16tsp KH2PO4, 1/4tsp K2SO4 on Mon, Wed, Fri
- 1/4tsp CSMB on Tues, Thurs, Sat
- 50% water change on Sun

Water Supply: RODI water remineralized with potassium bicarbonate for KH, and magnesium, calcium, and potassium sulphate for GH

Substrate: Eco-complete

WATER PARAMETERS

Temperature: 77.3f during lighting hours, drop to 75.6f during night hours (cold room)

dKH: 5

dGH: 7

Ammonia and Nitrite: 0ppm

Nitrate: 40ppm

Phosphate: 5ppm

Potassium: I do not own a test for this, but I can’t imagine it is low. I use potassium bicarbonate and potassium sulphate for RODI remineralization, plus dose EI method KNO3, KH2PO4, and K2SO4.

CO2 and pH: I prefer to measure CO2 with the pH drop method. The pH drops from 8.1 to 6.8 over the first two hours of CO2 saturation. pH stays below 7.0 for remainder of lighting period. This indicates CO2 levels at or above 30ppm for entirety of photo period. Fish do not show signs of distress during CO2 hours.

So basically, what the **** is going on here? Plants are showing signs of deficiency despite every reading indicating ample nutrients, CO2, and lighting.

I deal with consistent green hair algae, especially on the carpeting plants (marlisea and s. repens). Some minor BBA on plants, as well.

I’m just really lost here. Clearly NO3 or K uptake is being interfered with, but by what, and how?

Any and all help greatly appreciated.
 

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Bbunkie01 said:
Tldr: plants showing classic signs of CO2, potassium, and nitrate deficiency despite ample availability of all of the above.

Affected plants:

H. compacta
Deficiency symptoms: classic pinholes in leaves (K deficiency), stark white undersides (CO2 or NO3 deficiency), inevitable transparency and leaf death. Only visible on old growth.

Water lily
Pinholes on both submerged leaves and lily pads, pinholes inevitably grow bigger and black at the edges, leaf death. Only visible on old growth.

Wisteria
Minor BBA on edges of old growth, stark white undersides on both new and old growth.

These are the most egregiously affected plants. Several other plant species consistently exhibit shrunken, unhealthy old growth despite healthy and vibrant new growth.

Some very important tank details and parameters:

TANK DETAILS

Size: 75 gallon community freshwater

Age: 3.5 months

Filtration: Fluval 406 and Fluval 306

CO2: Pressurized delivered via inline atomizer on the 406

Lighting: two 48inch Finnex 24/7 CC LEDs set to max intensity for 7 hour photo period. CO2 comes on two hours before lights, shuts off one hour before lights off.

Fertilization: EI method dry ferts.
- 3/4tsp KNO3, 3/16tsp KH2PO4, 1/4tsp K2SO4 on Mon, Wed, Fri
- 1/4tsp CSMB on Tues, Thurs, Sat
- 50% water change on Sun

Water Supply: RODI water remineralized with potassium bicarbonate for KH, and magnesium, calcium, and potassium sulphate for GH

Substrate: Eco-complete

WATER PARAMETERS

Temperature: 77.3f during lighting hours, drop to 75.6f during night hours (cold room)

dKH: 5

dGH: 7

Ammonia and Nitrite: 0ppm

Nitrate: 40ppm

Phosphate: 5ppm

Potassium: I do not own a test for this, but I can’t imagine it is low. I use potassium bicarbonate and potassium sulphate for RODI remineralization, plus dose EI method KNO3, KH2PO4, and K2SO4.

CO2 and pH: I prefer to measure CO2 with the pH drop method. The pH drops from 8.1 to 6.8 over the first two hours of CO2 saturation. pH stays below 7.0 for remainder of lighting period. This indicates CO2 levels at or above 30ppm for entirety of photo period. Fish do not show signs of distress during CO2 hours.

So basically, what the is going on here? Plants are showing signs of deficiency despite every reading indicating ample nutrients, CO2, and lighting.

I deal with consistent green hair algae, especially on the carpeting plants (marlisea and s. repens). Some minor BBA on plants, as well.

I’m just really lost here. Clearly NO3 or K uptake is being interfered with, but by what, and how?

Any and all help greatly appreciated.
I'm new to plants and haven't a clue so I'd like to follow to learn. I hope someone has answers for you.
 

SeattleRoy

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Bbunkie01 said:
Tldr: plants showing classic signs of CO2, potassium, and nitrate deficiency despite ample availability of all of the above.

Affected plants:

H. compacta
Deficiency symptoms: classic pinholes in leaves (K deficiency), stark white undersides (CO2 or NO3 deficiency), inevitable transparency and leaf death. Only visible on old growth.

Water lily
Pinholes on both submerged leaves and lily pads, pinholes inevitably grow bigger and black at the edges, leaf death. Only visible on old growth.

Wisteria
Minor BBA on edges of old growth, stark white undersides on both new and old growth.

These are the most egregiously affected plants. Several other plant species consistently exhibit shrunken, unhealthy old growth despite healthy and vibrant new growth.

Some very important tank details and parameters:

TANK DETAILS

Size: 75 gallon community freshwater

Age: 3.5 months

Filtration: Fluval 406 and Fluval 306

CO2: Pressurized delivered via inline atomizer on the 406

Lighting: two 48inch Finnex 24/7 CC LEDs set to max intensity for 7 hour photo period. CO2 comes on two hours before lights, shuts off one hour before lights off.

Fertilization: EI method dry ferts.
- 3/4tsp KNO3, 3/16tsp KH2PO4, 1/4tsp K2SO4 on Mon, Wed, Fri
- 1/4tsp CSMB on Tues, Thurs, Sat
- 50% water change on Sun

Water Supply: RODI water remineralized with potassium bicarbonate for KH, and magnesium, calcium, and potassium sulphate for GH

Substrate: Eco-complete

WATER PARAMETERS

Temperature: 77.3f during lighting hours, drop to 75.6f during night hours (cold room)

dKH: 5

dGH: 7

Ammonia and Nitrite: 0ppm

Nitrate: 40ppm

Phosphate: 5ppm

Potassium: I do not own a test for this, but I can’t imagine it is low. I use potassium bicarbonate and potassium sulphate for RODI remineralization, plus dose EI method KNO3, KH2PO4, and K2SO4.

CO2 and pH: I prefer to measure CO2 with the pH drop method. The pH drops from 8.1 to 6.8 over the first two hours of CO2 saturation. pH stays below 7.0 for remainder of lighting period. This indicates CO2 levels at or above 30ppm for entirety of photo period. Fish do not show signs of distress during CO2 hours.

So basically, what the is going on here? Plants are showing signs of deficiency despite every reading indicating ample nutrients, CO2, and lighting.

I deal with consistent green hair algae, especially on the carpeting plants (marlisea and s. repens). Some minor BBA on plants, as well.

I’m just really lost here. Clearly NO3 or K uptake is being interfered with, but by what, and how?

Any and all help greatly appreciated.
HI Bbunkie01,

Could you please supply some pictures? Tank overall, and close up pictures of new leaves and older leaves of the species being effected.

Is your CO2 on a solenoid & timer or does it run 24/7? When do you dose your nutrients?
 

Vishaquatics

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As Roy said, pictures will definitely help.

Two ideas come to mind here.
1) CO2 deficiency
2) The minerals you use to remineralize your RODI water

I know that you've said your CO2 is dialed in but using the pH to calculate the ppm is not always accurate. Dialing CO2 in is by far the hardest factor to successfully master. I like to do this: Set the CO2 to a relatively high rate. Wait a few minutes. The fish will usually start to hyperventilate. Lower the CO2 little by little every 15 or so minutes until the fish stop hyperventilating at the surface. Push the CO2 as far as you can just until the fish stop hyperventilating. You want to keep it at this borderline level. Yes, it does cause temporary stress to the fish. However, I've found that this is absolutely the best method to dialing into CO2 within just a few tries. How is the flow around the tank? The CO2 needs to be transported through good flow throughout the tank so there should ideally be no dead spots in the tank. Please try upping the CO2 using this method.

I don't have experience with remineralizing water, as my tap water has been decent quality already. Maybe try using the tap water in your area. Even if the nitrates are high, it doesn't matter. The nitrates in it will only benefit your plant growth. I've personally found that in my hightech tanks, high potassium content has hindered the best possible growth. I'm only mentioning potassium because I noticed that you're dosing K2SO4 and potassium bicarbonate. I know many show tanks run their K levels at well over 100ppm, but I don't like this approach for K. When I was at the height of dosing K (probably around 40-50ppm 3x per week), the old growth on my plants looked like utter trash. The new growth looked great, but the older growth looked like it was suffering from a K deficiency which is why I kept dosing more K. After a while, I went on a tank reset. I did a 75% water change and went back to dosing normal EI levels without K2SO4 and using only around 15ppm K from the KNO3. Within a week, all my issues cleared up. Old growth stopped deteriorating and actually improved. What I think may have been happening was the K was blocking other nutrient uptake, so lowering its concentration would then allow the nutrient blockage to stop. This particular tank also had a soil substrate, with a high CEC value, so it's possible that the dirt absorbed tons of K and as a result caused a toxicity or nutrient blockage.
 
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Bbunkie01

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Vishaquatics (Koiman) said:
As Roy said, pictures will definitely help.

Two ideas come to mind here.
1) CO2 deficiency
2) The minerals you use to remineralize your RODI water

I know that you've said your CO2 is dialed in but using the pH to calculate the ppm is not always accurate. Dialing CO2 in is by far the hardest factor to successfully master. I like to do this: Set the CO2 to a relatively high rate. Wait a few minutes. The fish will usually start to hyperventilate. Lower the CO2 little by little every 15 or so minutes until the fish stop hyperventilating at the surface. Push the CO2 as far as you can just until the fish stop hyperventilating. You want to keep it at this borderline level. Yes, it does cause temporary stress to the fish. However, I've found that this is absolutely the best method to dialing into CO2 within just a few tries. How is the flow around the tank? The CO2 needs to be transported through good flow throughout the tank so there should ideally be no dead spots in the tank. Please try upping the CO2 using this method.

I don't have experience with remineralizing water, as my tap water has been decent quality already. Maybe try using the tap water in your area. Even if the nitrates are high, it doesn't matter. The nitrates in it will only benefit your plant growth. I've personally found that in my hightech tanks, high potassium content has hindered the best possible growth. I'm only mentioning potassium because I noticed that you're dosing K2SO4 and potassium bicarbonate. I know many show tanks run their K levels at well over 100ppm, but I don't like this approach for K. When I was at the height of dosing K (probably around 40-50ppm 3x per week), the old growth on my plants looked like utter trash. The new growth looked great, but the older growth looked like it was suffering from a K deficiency which is why I kept dosing more K. After a while, I went on a tank reset. I did a 75% water change and went back to dosing normal EI levels without K2SO4 and using only around 15ppm K from the KNO3. Within a week, all my issues cleared up. Old growth stopped deteriorating and actually improved. What I think may have been happening was the K was blocking other nutrient uptake, so lowering its concentration would then allow the nutrient blockage to stop. This particular tank also had a soil substrate, with a high CEC value, so it's possible that the dirt absorbed tons of K and as a result caused a toxicity or nutrient blockage.
Very interesting points on K. Do you happen to know of a reliable K test? I’ve only been able to find one on Amazon that appears to be geared more toward saltwater testing.

I’ve always assumed my K levels were potentially too high. I can explore some different GH remineralizers that forego K2SO4. I’ve also read that K levels up to 100ppm are common in professional aquascapes, which is why I’ve never thought much about dumping so much in there, both via regular dosing and remineralization. Moreover, I’ve never felt comfortable using sodium bicarbonate for KH remineralization in a freshwater tank, though maybe I’m being paranoid there. After seeing a recommendation for potassium bicarbonate from Tom Barr himself, that’s what I settled on.

Not opposed to changing any of this, just explaining my thought process.

I’m currently treating an ich infestation. Once the meds are out of the tank next week, I will attempt another CO2 recalibration with your advice. I just can’t imagine how much further I can push my regulator. I have a GLA Gro-1 regulator set to 50psI working pressure. I swear I’ve maxed out my BPS (5+ at least).

Flow should be fine. I have the intakes of both canister filters in opposite corners of the tank. Both outflows are DIY spraybars positioned on the left and right side walls of the tank. The outflow with the inline atomizer is pointed down into the water column. The other spray bar is pointed upward to create surface agitation. Creates a strong circular flow in the tank.

I will definitely provide pictures tomorrow afternoon.

Thank you for your response.

SeattleRoy said:
HI Bbunkie01,

Could you please supply some pictures? Tank overall, and close up pictures of new leaves and older leaves of the species being effected.

Is your CO2 on a solenoid & timer or does it run 24/7? When do you dose your nutrients?
Yes, I will absolutely provide pictures tomorrow afternoon.

Yes, CO2 is controlled via a solenoid on the regulator. GLA Gro-1 regulator.

CO2 runs from 11am to 7pm. Lights run from 1pm to 8pm.

I consistently dose nutrients every morning around 10am.
 

Vishaquatics

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Excess surface movement is not desirable for high tech CO2 injected environment. A very slight and light ripple, if even that is desirable. Only for Lowtech tanks should the surface be agitated to encourage gas exchange. You want to minimize gas exchange as much as possible to prevent the CO2 from gassing off.

As for remineralizing, I definitely wouldn’t put the sodium bicarbonate in there. A lot of people think that the K level of toxicity is very very high (400+ppm), but I think it’s definitely within reach (80-200ppm). I’ve yet to overdose nitrates, but I’ve had micro toxicities before (scorched and twisted new growth) from dosing twice the recommend amount of CSM+B
 
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Bbunkie01

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Vishaquatics (Koiman) said:
Excess surface movement is not desirable for high tech CO2 injected environment. A very slight and light ripple, if even that is desirable. Only for Lowtech tanks should the surface be agitated to encourage gas exchange. You want to minimize gas exchange as much as possible to prevent the CO2 from gassing off.

As for remineralizing, I definitely wouldn’t put the sodium bicarbonate in there. A lot of people think that the K level of toxicity is very very high (400+ppm), but I think it’s definitely within reach (80-200ppm). I’ve yet to overdose nitrates, but I’ve had micro toxicities before (scorched and twisted new growth) from dosing twice the recommend amount of CSM+B
Okay, now that is definitely interesting. I’ve always assumed I needed strong surface agitation, even moreso with CO2 injection. I could indeed be gassing off too much CO2.

I’d rather keep max GPH on the Fluvals, so I won’t decrease flow rate. But I can definitely tweak the spray bars to create less surface agitation.

I will actually take a short video tomorrow on my phone to document my current surface agitation. Maybe it’s too much.
 

Vishaquatics

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Bbunkie01 said:
Okay, now that is definitely interesting. I’ve always assumed I needed strong surface agitation, even moreso with CO2 injection. I could indeed be gassing off too much CO2.

I’d rather keep max GPH on the Fluvals, so I won’t decrease flow rate. But I can definitely tweak the spray bars to create less surface agitation.

I will actually take a short video tomorrow on my phone to document my current surface agitation. Maybe it’s too much.
A video would definitely help. As for a reliable K test, I doubt any exist out there that are accurate and affordable. Even the tests for nitrates are highly inaccurate. Can’t imagine it’d be any better for K
 

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Vishaquatics (Koiman) said:
A video would definitely help. As for a reliable K test, I doubt any exist out there that are accurate and affordable. Even the tests for nitrates are highly inaccurate. Can’t imagine it’d be any better for K
Inaccurate or imprecise?
 

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If plants in different spots are showing different deficiencies I woukd check the water circulation in the tank. Its possible that the nutrients aren't being evenly distributed throughout your tank.
 

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Vishaquatics (Koiman) said:
As for a reliable K test, I doubt any exist out there that are accurate and affordable. Even the tests for nitrates are highly inaccurate. Can’t imagine it’d be any better for K
HI All,

I think that there may be an misconception that the test kits available to hobbyists are 'highly inaccurate'; possibly folks repeat what they read or hear and fail to investigate.

I personally checked the calibration of my API Nitrate Test Kit and found it to be 100% accurate at all levels from 160 ppm to 5.0 ppm. It is important to read the instructions thoroughly and do the required 30 seconds (or more) of shaking for bottle #2 prior to adding the drops and the shaking for 1 minute after adding all the drops. I used the Rex Grigg method of calibrating with known ppm nitrate levels in various solutions.
 

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SeattleRoy said:
HI All,

I think that there may be an misconception that the test kits available to hobbyists are 'highly inaccurate'; possibly folks repeat what they read or hear and fail to investigate.

I personally checked the calibration of my API Nitrate Test Kit and found it to be 100% accurate at all levels from 160 ppm to 5.0 ppm. It is important to read the instructions thoroughly and do the required 30 seconds (or more) of shaking for bottle #2 prior to adding the drops and the shaking for 1 minute after adding all the drops. I used the Rex Grigg method of calibrating with known ppm nitrate levels in various solutions.
Curious if you’ve ever tested the accuracy of strips?
 
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Bbunkie01

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Vishaquatics (Koiman) said:
A video would definitely help. As for a reliable K test, I doubt any exist out there that are accurate and affordable. Even the tests for nitrates are highly inaccurate. Can’t imagine it’d be any better for K
SeattleRoy said:
HI Bbunkie01,

Could you please supply some pictures? Tank overall, and close up pictures of new leaves and older leaves of the species being effected.

Is your CO2 on a solenoid & timer or does it run 24/7? When do you dose your nutrients?
Hey, everyone. I managed to upload a 4 minute video on Youtube at the following URL:

I've never uploaded a video before, so hopefully it looks fine and I don't sound too scattered. Thanks again for the help!
 

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Vishaquatics (Koiman) said:
Excess surface movement is not desirable for high tech CO2 injected environment. A very slight and light ripple, if even that is desirable. Only for Lowtech tanks should the surface be agitated to encourage gas exchange. You want to minimize gas exchange as much as possible to prevent the CO2 from gassing off.
I would be inclined to disagree, Bbunkie01 more gaseous exchange is ideal in a CO2 injected tank. If there is little surface agitation, CO2 levels may shoot up to dangerous levels quite fast because there is nowhere for it to go. In order to maintain a constant CO2 level, you actually need some to be escaping.
This is an extremely informative video on the topic:
 
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Bbunkie01

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-Mak- said:
I would be inclined to disagree, Bbunkie01 more gaseous exchange is ideal in a CO2 injected tank. If there is little surface agitation, CO2 levels may shoot up to dangerous levels quite fast because there is nowhere for it to go. In order to maintain a constant CO2 level, you actually need some to be escaping.
This is an extremely informative video on the topic:
Dennis Wong’s videos have been my number one educator on a planted tank. This exact video was why I previously prioritized surface agitation.

By chance, did you watch my video two posts above? Pretty short. I show my surface agitation and circulation setup, along with the visible algae and plant deficiencies.

Check it out if you have the chance. As previously stated, I am well and truly lost at this point. Plants dying, lots of algae, and yet all my readings indicate a healthy environment.
 

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-Mak- said:
I would be inclined to disagree, Bbunkie01 more gaseous exchange is ideal in a CO2 injected tank. If there is little surface agitation, CO2 levels may shoot up to dangerous levels quite fast because there is nowhere for it to go. In order to maintain a constant CO2 level, you actually need some to be escaping.
This is an extremely informative video on the topic:
Wait what? The CO2 will gas off with excess surface movement although OP only has a small ripple on the surface which is fine. The agitation is not as intense as I previously thought it was for OPs tank.

If you’re injecting CO2, you want to preserve as much as possible. It wouldn’t make sense to encourage extreme surface movement when you’re injecting CO2. If anything, less surface movement will allow you to be more efficient with the CO2 because you’ll be Able to use less. There needs to be good tank circulation, but this circulation should not make the surface very agitated. A light ripple is good, but anymore than that is not very desireable.

EDIT: Just watched his video. I found it quite interesting, and I agree with most of it, but I do not necessarily agree that the water becomes saturated with the optimal level of CO2 and then the excess is gassed off through excess surface agitation. I think the gassing off would happen far earlier than the water becoming saturated, leading to sub optimal CO2 levels. If you have a high injection rate and a low gaseous exchange, the plants will have more CO2 to utilize AND the equilibrium will be achieved by the plants constantly using the CO2 throughout the photoperiod. In this way, the plants remove the CO2 from the water at such a rate that prevents the CO2 from becoming lethal.
 
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Vishaquatics (Koiman) said:
Wait what? The CO2 will gas off with excess surface movement although OP only has a small ripple on the surface which is fine. The agitation is not as intense as I previously thought it was for OPs tank.

If you’re injecting CO2, you want to preserve as much as possible. It wouldn’t make sense to encourage extreme surface movement when you’re injecting CO2. If anything, less surface movement will allow you to be more efficient with the CO2 because you’ll be Able to use less. There needs to be good tank circulation, but this circulation should not make the surface very agitated. A light ripple is good, but anymore than that is not very desireable.
According to Dennis Wong, the thought basically boils down to this:

High, less efficient rate of injection paired with high surface agitation is superior to low, more efficient rate of injection paired with little surface agitation.

Wong is of the opinion that gassing off is ultimately inconsequential (within reason). Moreover, he claims strong O2 saturation in the water column, as well as water exchange between top and bottom layers of water, promotes a healthier environment for both flora and fauna. The higher your O2 levels, the more CO2 you can inject without harming your fish.

So it’s a trade off. Strong surface agitation ultimately means higher rate of injection and therefore less efficient use of CO2. But it also means strong O2 saturation and tank circulation.

Not saying that’s the gospel truth, but Wong is certainly an accomplished aquarist worth listening to, IMO.

Any other thoughts on my video? I know you mentioned the surface agitation seemed appropriate. What about the footage of the plant deficiency and overall circulation? Still leaning toward an overall CO2 deficiency as the main culprit?

Thank you again for your time.
 

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