Confused by Petsmarts Endlers

I am still debating on if I want to get fish in my shrimp tank (had fish but they weren't right for the tank) and when I ran to Petsmart last night I noticed they had a sign for Green Cobra Endlers but then the actual barcode said Green Cobra Guppy Endlers (which I do realize they breed endlers and guppies) Anyway, I saw the fish that are greenish with the black spotting and wide tails (size of a small guppy-looked guppy), but there were also the tiny little guys that have dashes of pink/black/green and some spots. Some of them had longer tail fins, some were just normal little tail fins (males and females?) but they did look different, which are actually the endlers? Are they pure endlers if they are the tiny ones with the dashes and a couple dots and the hybrids are bigger with the wide tails. Even looking up online I get a big variation on them so thought I'd ask here, do they just vary that much? Maybe someone can show me a Green Cobra Endler and what a hybrid looks like because photos I've found look so different.

I'd like to possibly get some endlers at some point since they are so tiny and stay tiny (sign said an inch) and I was recommended these guys back when I asked about stocking my 10 gallon tank. I currently have 13 red cherry shrimp and need to separate my few blue pearls (no one is breeding yet). I have a lot of plants and hiding spots. I know I can put a good school of endlers in my tank, but what is recommended? Also if anyone on here has some for sale could you pm me? They are about $2.59ea. on sale right now, not sure if anyone can sell them cheaper with cost of shipping and such.

Also do you tell male from female by longer fins like some fish or does that not apply to endlers? Thanks!!

So is the top one pure endler? And the second the hybrid?

 

I don't have s of the green cobra, but the ones that I've seen at the chain stores are always guppies. Endler males are about an inch long and that's it. The body is long and narrow. Tail shapes will vary slightly.

Here is a black bar endler:



The females are grey and larger than the male. It is rare to see them at chain stores.


If you see an endler at the chain stores, your odds are 99.99% that it is a hybrid (mixed with guppy). They will still look like endlers, but are not pure bred. All my males are mixed.

For more info with pics, check out (specifically pages 1 and 3)

 

The guy in the 2nd photo doesn't look at all Endler to me. He might be part Endler. I'd have to watch his behavior to see if he's got enough of the personality traits.

N class Endler boy's are typically 2/3 to 3/4 inch long in my experience, though I've had a couple of giants at nearly 7/8 inch.

Are you going to mix Endler's and/or hybrids in a community tank or are you going to set up a species tank?

 

I think some looked very much like the pure ones, they were very tiny and looked just like that pic Cygnus, but I wouldn't doubt that they were hybrids. It's possible they are still young and some had these kind of "sword" tail like extenstions trailing...I think there may have been a couple females but mostly males now that I've seen what females look like. (finally found some on a website) Some of those strains of endlers are gorgeous (even the pure ones).

I pmd you endlercollector. Species only tank (aside from snails and shrimp)

 

Nebraska's not too far from Colorado, and you might have the same fish supplier to your Petsmart stores. That's key, because there was a stretch of maybe six months here where Petsmart was getting pure black bar Endlers in and marking them as "Cobra Endler Guppies". Needless to say, I acquired an Endler tank very quickly. The aquatics manager shared my disbelief, and actually bought himself a five-gallon tank the day he saw pure Endlers appear in his shipment!

So, yes, it's entirely possible that your Petsmart is getting pure Endlers. In fact, I might call that Petsmart up today and see if the aquatics manager is in, and if he's buying himself another 5 gallon tank...

 

Wow, nice, I think some could have been pure, but I didn't even ask, some didn't show any signs of being mixed with guppy, but they were with guppies...Hard to say...

 

when you see the size difference, that's when it hits you. Endlers are much smaller than guppies. typically if they're in the chain store, they're hybrids. its just too much work to keep them apart and pure.

 

If you could take post a couple of minutes of video of them, people here who have Endler's may be able to figure out very quickly by their behavior if they're Endler enough

 

So, yes, it's entirely possible that your Petsmart is getting pure Endlers. In fact, I might call that Petsmart up today and see if the aquatics manager is in, and if he's buying himself another 5 gallon tank...

I'd be incredibly surprised at a chain store getting a pure endler. Anything is possible, but the odds would be against it. Now all three of mine are mixed but look very, very close to pure bred examples (a smidge bigger than pure and the colors are just a tad off).

Now there is nothing wrong with a mix, I personally prefer them as mine were bought to continue to mix them with guppies.

If you want a true pure breed, my suggestion would be to buy them direct from a breeder or one of the few members here who can honestly trace the line back to the originals collected in the wild. That way you know for sure that you have pure lines.

 

All PetSmarts have the same supplier.

The Cobra Guppy Endlers look like pure endlers to me. Theyre less than half the size of the guppies.. Different tail shape. But also the supplier can be really not to smart. They shipped us 5 male Lyretail Guppies. I look in the bag to see 4 Lyretails and one plain "Fancy" female 0.0 makes me wonder if they even check. We also as employees don't pick where the fish go or how they are marked. The bags they are shipped in have labels and we just match that to the right tank. Float for 15 minuted and dump all contents of the bag in. Policy. Fish need to be in the tank water within 15 minutes of me opening a box of fish.

 

All PetSmarts have the same supplier.

The Cobra Guppy Endlers look like pure endlers to me. Theyre less than half the size of the guppies.. Different tail shape. But also the supplier can be really not to smart. They shipped us 5 male Lyretail Guppies. I look in the bag to see 4 Lyretails and one plain "Fancy" female 0.0 makes me wonder if they even check. We also as employees don't pick where the fish go or how they are marked. The bags they are shipped in have labels and we just match that to the right tank. Float for 15 minuted and dump all contents of the bag in. Policy. Fish need to be in the tank water within 15 minutes of me opening a box of fish.

You have got to be kidding! This explains a lot to me...

 

Nope. And if you're upset by it you have to think. I have customers crowding me all day. I need to get the fish out of those bags as fast as I can. No time to drip acclimate. The system is over 5,000 gallons of water. With 12 boxes of fish I'm MAYBE adding 50 gallons of nasty bag water in. It is a huge amazing system. The bag water will not harm the fish or system if I dump it in. If I see a bag with even one DOA fish. I net out the living ones into the medicine tank.

I'm also the only employee back there receiving fish. Typically at least one box will be completely wet. So I need to get fish in our tank water ASAP. Ive never lost a fish from this poor acclimating. The only ones that die were dead in the bag already. Others (at least at MY fish wall) die from getting beat up.. Or a sickness.

Oh and our water parameters in store are tweaked to match the suppliers. So no pH shock unless there's a huge ammonia build up in the bag. Which means at least one DOA and those guys get netted out.

 

Nope. And if you're upset by it you have to think. I have customers crowding me all day. I need to get the fish out of those bags as fast as I can. No time to drip acclimate. The system is over 5,000 gallons of water. With 12 boxes of fish I'm MAYBE adding 50 gallons of nasty bag water in. It is a huge amazing system. The bag water will not harm the fish or system if I dump it in. If I see a bag with even one DOA fish. I net out the living ones into the medicine tank.

I'm also the only employee back there receiving fish. Typically at least one box will be completely wet. So I need to get fish in our tank water ASAP. Ive never lost a fish from this poor acclimating. The only ones that die were dead in the bag already. Others (at least at MY fish wall) die from getting beat up.. Or a sickness.

Glad you're there to do a better job than most would under such stress. I've seen so many LFS employees looking like they've given up caring.

 

I could never half-"butt" anything when it comes to my fish wall. In my mind I see all of those fish as mine until someone buys them. And I want the best for them. Sometimes I even give them all bloodworms even though I'm not supposed to (save money.. Only the "high loss" fish get them)

The Oscars are my babies. And the Koi. Def my favorites. And I love not only educating but also learning from customers

 

I will try to get some video next time I'm there, if the few I've spotted are mixed then they sure look pure, but there's usually only a few, to me they look totally different than the guppies. Just went to a different Petsmart last night for nerite snails and saw 2 or 3 male endlers that looked pure. I am not planning on buying from the stores here though.

 

There are 3 classes of endlers.

N - pure with direct lineage back to the original batches taken from the wild.
P - fish of unknown origin but appears to be an endler based on colors, patterns, shape, and size.
K - any endler crossed with any other livebearer.

Both P and K can look like pure endlers but unless you can trace the line all the way back to the original collections it would be wrong to assume that they are pure and certainly wrong to sell them as pure. Of course this doesn't stop people from doing it every day, but if I were looking for a true "pure" line, I would buy from a very trusted resource.

 

PetSmart does not label them as pure, hence why they are labled as Cobra Endlers Guppies. "Guppies" is there rather than "Cobra Endlers", which we also have the ability to sell (Saw the tag when I was sifting through our fish tags looking for a gold zebra danio tag.)

 

PetSmart does not label them as pure, hence why they are labled as Cobra Endlers Guppies. "Guppies" is there rather than "Cobra Endlers", which we also have the ability to sell (Saw the tag when I was sifting through our fish tags looking for a gold zebra danio tag.)

Hmm, sounds like the overuse of the term "chocolate" in US supermarkets. It's brown and a cocoa bean was injured somewhere in its ancient past--therefore, it's chocolate!

 

Sorry no such thing as cobra pure endlers. Only hybrids

 

Here's what one of my green cobra endlers looks like. I'm not too bothered if he's a hybrid, since I'm going to be crossing him with female guppies anyway. The green cobra in your photo is definitely pure guppy, though.

 

There are 3 classes of endlers.

N - pure with direct lineage back to the original batches taken from the wild.
P - fish of unknown origin but appears to be an endler based on colors, patterns, shape, and size.
K - any endler crossed with any other livebearer.

Both P and K can look like pure endlers but unless you can trace the line all the way back to the original collections it would be wrong to assume that they are pure and certainly wrong to sell them as pure. Of course this doesn't stop people from doing it every day, but if I were looking for a true "pure" line, I would buy from a very trusted resource.

This is dead on! Fish bought at a chain store can never be considered N class, unless you get genetic testing done. You've got to have actual proof that they are N class otherwise you run the risk of polluting the gene pool.

 

This is dead on! Fish bought at a chain store can never be considered N class, unless you get genetic testing done. You've got to have actual proof that they are N class otherwise you run the risk of polluting the gene pool.

Also, I seem to recall someone, I think it was endlercollector, mentioning that the endler's natural habitat had been pretty much destroyed, so if you plan to hybridize them, it's good to know this because you should avoid using N class for crosses and leave those for people who plan to breed pure endlers. Otherwise, one day they'll all be gone.

 

Hey you're back on! Yes the natural habitat are diminishing. Not even sure true n class are even pure as the very first sample was mixed already

 

Hey you're back on! Yes the natural habitat are diminishing. Not even sure true n class are even pure as the very first sample was mixed already

The very first sample was not mixed. A friend of ours worked with Endler and said that it wasn't. There have been others since then that also weren't mixed.

 

I've recently read that laguna de los patos has been pretty much flooded by the sea. I'm not there is any habitat left for Endlers there.

 

There was a flood that occurred in Bolivia, not in Venezuela, though the report appeared in a 2/1/14 article with the odd title "VENEZUELA: Asciende a 28.500 las familias ificadas por lluvias en Bolivia." The news group that broadcast this item is located in Venezuela. If there is another news source, please post it.

there is evidence of paleotsunamis in the coast of Venezuela, but these occurred long ago:

 

Geez, 28500 families lost their homes? So sad

 

Is my endler pure or is he a guppy? Sorry about picture quality

 

Is my endler pure or is he a guppy? Sorry about picture quality

He may be pure or have some reticulata. Only a DNA test can tell for sure, but he wouldn't survive it. He is a cutie

 

Sorry I had it backwards. There are Cobra GUPPIEs.. Then the cobra endler guppies.

Was browsing through the fish tags at work looking for "lyretail swortail mix 'regular'" tags -.-

 

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Sorry I had it backwards. There are Cobra GUPPIEs.. Then the cobra endler guppies.

Was browsing through the fish tags at work looking for "lyretail swortail mix 'regular'" tags -.-

I believe that to have the green cobra pattern, they have to be part guppy. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure sure that's not a natural endler color.

 

Cobra pattern is guppy, yes. It can not occur in endlers without guppy DNA.

 

Exactly. That's why they are labled Cobra Guppy Endlers.. And not just Endlers

Or Cobra Endlers Guppies lol I can't remember. But that was my original point

 

I have 6 tiger endlers on the way. They say they are pure and not mixed with guppy. I see this huge debate and does this mean they are not N but P. Just trying to get clarification as I understand if they come from a pet store, if I am reading these posts correctly, that chain pet store endlers are K and those not able to trace are P-am I understanding correctly?

 

Tiger endlers are K class!!! Tiger endlers are now their own strain, so they are pure tiger endlers. This does not mean they are pure endlers.

N class - Pure endler with their heritage completely traceable back to laguna de los patos

P class - appears to be pure but has no proof of lineage

K class - Hybrid.

 

Cobra pattern is guppy, yes. It can not occur in endlers without guppy DNA.

I believe when someone says an endler strain like tiger endlers is "pure" they mean it breeds true: tiger endlers produce tiger endlers when bred with tiger endlers. As opposed to a green grass or cobra that throws solid reds or something, I suppose. Although figuring out the genetics behind that would be pretty interesting.

I'm hoping to get some cool colors by cross-breeding. I have 2 cobra endlers and 2 regular (black/green/orange) endlers. I'm also hoping to breed hardier guppies by adding the endler blood to the genetics. I'll also be breeding some pure guppies, as I've found some really dynamic males, like this guy:

And this cool lyre-tail I found mixed in with the "assorted" males at PetCo: