Complete Novice just bought a tropical set up

Just goin to throw this out there...... Shell dwellers and guppies.

 

in the same tank? I thought shell dwellers were territorial like cichlids.

 

No, you can't have them in the same tanks.

 

in the same tank? I thought shell dwellers were territorial like cichlids.

Shellies are chiclids and will eat guppies .

 

I believe fishlee01 meant that some ideas are shell dwellers and guppies but not as in keeping them together.

 

I believe fishlee01 meant that some ideas are shell dwellers and guppies but not as in keeping them together.

what I thought just wanted to check.

 

So, I'll just get right down to it. I recently acquired a JBJ RL 45, and I'm looking to starting a freshwater tank, but I have no idea how should go about adding things into the tank. I've been looking around for a definitive answer as to whether I should add fish or plants first, and I've been getting a lot of mixed answers. I have CaribSea Eco-Complete Substrate ready to use, just not sure how soon I should add things in. A guy at my fish store told me I'd be able to add fish in right away, but from other videos I've watched, it seems plants always go in first.

 

I’m a newbie also, and almost everyone here says you should cycle your tank first. I’m going to follow this thread because my son (5years) is wanting to start his own little freshwater tank. Check out the nitrogen cycle link in the beginners page. It has tons of information.

If you are a beginner to freshwater fish keeping, you may find the following posts very helpful.

Ammonia Instructions when Cycling with TSS+ or other Bacterial Starter

Easy First Tank Setup & Guide

Early mistakes

Why can't I have more fish.....

Abbreviations, Initialisms, Acronyms, and other Lingo

Starting Fish Keeping - List Of What You Need To Own And To Know

Important - Great article about Stress and its Role in Fish Disease'

Quarantine Tank Setup

Acclimating Fish to Your Aquarium

Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle

 

With the substrate you've chosen, I wouldn't add anything for a while. Eco complete leaches ammonia for the first few weeks so adding fish isn't safe.
Adding fish isn't safe if you choose a different substrate either as the tank still needs to cycle as LaTulip mentioned. This usually takes around four weeks so no fish should be added to the tank before this process is done. If you do not know how to cycle a tank there are great articles about this everywhere if you just google 'how to cycle a tank'.
There are two ways of cycling: with fish or without. I suggest you do it without as it requires much less work of you and you don't harm any live animals. Fishless cycling also leaves room for mistakes which is great if you're new to the hobby.

What I would do is get the tank up and running. Add water, add decorations, substrate, plants, etc., but no fish. Cycle the tank and once it's done add fish but not too many all at once or you run the risk of getting into a minI cycle.

 

I'm glad you asked questions here before throwing fish in!

Kiks gave you good advice. Aquarium soil balls (like what you have and ADA aquarium soil) are full of ammonia and will raise your tank's ammonia for 2 to 3 weeks. Another thing it does it drops your tank's PH like a rock. My hard, high PH water in San Diego (7.9 PH and 13 KH) dropped to about 6.4 PH after a day or two. Your PH level isn't all that important, but when it changes drastically like that, it can shock and kill your fish. I've also noticed plants don't do well right away in this soil. They don't like PH fluctuating like that.

I personally would setup the tank, fill it with soil and de-chlorinated tap water and just let it run. Follow the substrate instructions and do water changes ever couple days to keep the PH swings at bay. After 2 or so weeks, your cycle should be making progress and the PH swings will lessen. I'd start adding pure ammonia at this point as the substrate won't leach that much anymore. There's tons of info on this website about fishless cycles.

Once the cycle is done, you're good to add some plants then fish!

The only thing I disagree about with Kiks is that I'd say you can fully stock the tank at once. If you cycle the tank with pure ammonia like I suggested (after 2 weeks of letting the substrate run its course), your tank will have more bacteria than a fully stocked tank needs. This is because you can add more ammonia to your tank during the cycle than your fish will be able to produce.

Some great news is that you're starting out with a 45 gallon tank. Most people start with 10 to 20 gallon tanks (I did) and it's not as forgiving as a larger tank.

Good luck!

 

With the substrate you've chosen, I wouldn't add anything for a while. Eco complete leaches ammonia for the first few weeks so adding fish isn't safe.
Adding fish isn't safe if you choose a different substrate either as the tank still needs to cycle as LaTulip mentioned. This usually takes around four weeks so no fish should be added to the tank before this process is done. If you do not know how to cycle a tank there are great articles about this everywhere if you just google 'how to cycle a tank'.
There are two ways of cycling: with fish or without. I suggest you do it without as it requires much less work of you and you don't harm any live animals. Fishless cycling also leaves room for mistakes which is great if you're new to the hobby.

What I would do is get the tank up and running. Add water, add decorations, substrate, plants, etc., but no fish. Cycle the tank and once it's done add fish but not too many all at once or you run the risk of getting into a minI cycle.

The Ammonia leaching is very good to know, thank you! Is there any point in no-fish cycling where adding plants in would be too early? Another question; with the substrate I have, would I need to add any extra nutrients or anything? I'm planning on having strictly low to medium light plants.

 

So, I'll just get right down to it. I recently acquired a JBJ RL 45, and I'm looking to starting a freshwater tank, but I have no idea how should go about adding things into the tank. I've been looking around for a definitive answer as to whether I should add fish or plants first, and I've been getting a lot of mixed answers. I have CaribSea Eco-Complete Substrate ready to use, just not sure how soon I should add things in. A guy at my fish store told me I'd be able to add fish in right away, but from other videos I've watched, it seems plants always go in first.

Yeah, ask kiks said, you can do it either way.

You'll want to get a water test kit, so you can keep an eye on the levels.

Doing a fish in cycle is a lot more work (that's how I did it when I first started since I did not know what the cycle was)because you have to do 25 - 50% water changes every other day during the ammonia stage and 25 - 50% water changes daily once your nitrates begin. It's a lot of work but definitely doable, but it's uncomfortable for the fish. It's like being really really hot, you are uncomfortable but you will live. The fish and left over food work as your ammonia source.

If you decide to go fishless you will need to add ammonia or something to work as your ammonia source, you can research more about it since I haven't done it myself, I don't want to give any recommendations on this route.

You can and should add your plants right off the bat, so add your rocks, wood, decorations, and what have you, then if you are going to do a fish in cycle you may want to wait a few days. You will also want to make sure you get a water dechlorinator, the most popular being seachem prime. This is important unless you are using well water. Since city water has choline added to to it, every time you add water, the chlorine kills your beneficial bacteria. Prime can also make the ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites not harmful to your fish for 24 hours. It's especially important during a fish in cycle.

Something else you can do to help, is switch up your media in filter. You may want to go to YouTube and look up "**** my filter" (haha yep, **** my filter) and search through his videos to see if he did a video for your filter type, or at least on close to it. I removed the activated carbon and added Biohome Ultimate Media, it comes with trace minerals thay both help with water parameters and is a good place for beneficial bacteria.

I hope some of those these pointers help out, if you have any questions, let me know.

Good luck!
Mat

 

Yeah, ask kiks said, you can do it either way.

You'll want to get a water test kit, so you can keep an eye on the levels.

Doing a fish in cycle is a lot more work (that's how I did it when I first started since I did not know what the cycle was)because you have to do 25 - 50% water changes every other day during the ammonia stage and 25 - 50% water changes daily once your nitrates begin. It's a lot of work but definitely doable, but it's uncomfortable for the fish. It's like being really really hot, you are uncomfortable but you will live. The fish and left over food work as your ammonia source.

If you decide to go fishless you will need to add ammonia or something to work as your ammonia source, you can research more about it since I haven't done it myself, I don't want to give any recommendations on this route.

You can and should add your plants right off the bat, so add your rocks, wood, decorations, and what have you, then if you are going to do a fish in cycle you may want to wait a few days. You will also want to make sure you get a water dechlorinator, the most popular being seachem prime. This is important unless you are using well water. Since city water has choline added to to it, every time you add water, the chlorine kills your beneficial bacteria. Prime can also make the ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites not harmful to your fish for 24 hours. It's especially important during a fish in cycle.

Something else you can do to help, is switch up your media in filter. You may want to go to YouTube and look up " my filter" (haha yep, my filter) and search through his videos to see if he did a video for your filter type, or at least on close to it. I removed the activated carbon and added Biohome Ultimate Media, it comes with trace minerals thay both help with water parameters and is a good place for beneficial bacteria.

I hope some of those these pointers help out, if you have any questions, let me know.

Good luck!
Mat

I'd wait on the plants for at least 3 weeks. The cycle is for bacteria in the filter.

Plants are expensive and the PH swings aquarium soil causes will cause many of them to melt and die. After the PH drastic swings are done (2 to 3 weeks) you can add them.

It's best to add plants before you add fish so their new home is setup and ready when you put them in there, but adding plants too early with that soil will destroy some of your plants, depending on what kind you get.

 

I’m a newbie also, and almost everyone here says you should cycle your tank first. I’m going to follow this thread because my son (5years) is wanting to start his own little freshwater tank. Check out the nitrogen cycle link in the beginners page. It has tons of information.

Sounds good! My first tank was a 32 Gal saltwater tank and I thought it would be pretty similar, but the more research I do, the more I realize how different the upkeep is

I'm glad you asked questions here before throwing fish in!

Kiks gave you good advice. Aquarium soil balls (like what you have and ADA aquarium soil) are full of ammonia and will raise your tank's ammonia for 2 to 3 weeks. Another thing it does it drops your tank's PH like a rock. My hard, high PH water in San Diego (7.9 PH and 13 KH) dropped to about 6.4 PH after a day or two. Your PH level isn't all that important, but when it changes drastically like that, it can shock and kill your fish. I've also noticed plants don't do well right away in this soil. They don't like PH fluctuating like that.

I personally would setup the tank, fill it with soil and de-chlorinated tap water and just let it run. Follow the substrate instructions and do water changes ever couple days to keep the PH swings at bay. After 2 or so weeks, your cycle should be making progress and the PH swings will lessen. I'd start adding pure ammonia at this point as the substrate won't leach that much anymore. There's tons of info on this website about fishless cycles.

Once the cycle is done, you're good to add some plants then fish!

The only thing I disagree about with Kiks is that I'd say you can fully stock the tank at once. If you cycle the tank with pure ammonia like I suggested (after 2 weeks of letting the substrate run its course), your tank will have more bacteria than a fully stocked tank needs. This is because you can add more ammonia to your tank during the cycle than your fish will be able to produce.

Some great news is that you're starting out with a 45 gallon tank. Most people start with 10 to 20 gallon tanks (I did) and it's not as forgiving as a larger tank.

Good luck!

Thank you! I'd been having a pretty difficult time getting a straight answer, so I figured forums are probably the best place to go since there are thousands of people (like yourself) who are more than happy to help. As far as stocking the tank, are you talking about adding plants right off the bat? I don't know how capable I am of keeping aquatic plants, so I was thinking of doing exclusively low-light plants. For lighting I have a Fluval Aquasky, I hope that'll be enough

 

Thank you! I'd been having a pretty difficult time getting a straight answer, so I figured forums are probably the best place to go since there are thousands of people (like yourself) who are more than happy to help. As far as stocking the tank, are you talking about adding plants right off the bat? I don't know how capable I am of keeping aquatic plants, so I was thinking of doing exclusively low-light plants. For lighting I have a Fluval Aquasky, I hope that'll be enough

I added plants right away and had no issues in my 20 gallon heavily planted and I'm currently in the process of doing the same in a 55 gallon, however, seems that others disagree with me, so I can only speak from my experience. I am somewhat new, so maybe you might want to wait. It al depends on how well you maintain it I suppose! In my 20 gallon, I have the fluval aquasky and it's done really well for me, my plants are doing really well. I have a bunch of different plants wgrowing with that light so you should be ok.

 

The Ammonia leaching is very good to know, thank you! Is there any point in no-fish cycling where adding plants in would be too early? Another question; with the substrate I have, would I need to add any extra nutrients or anything? I'm planning on having strictly low to medium light plants.

I've always added plants right away. I've added the substrate, added the decor and added plants and water all during the same day. Never had any problems.

The substrate will help all plants you have that are root feeders. Those should do just fine without any root tabs, etc. If you have any plants that feed from the water column they might appreciate some liquid fertiliser. However, if you plan on only having easy plants that require low light and no CO2 they usually don't require a whole lot of fertiliser either.

 

Fish-in cycle should only be a last resort if you have no other choice. I would do the hardscape and plants first - then cycle without fish - because plants contribute to a good and quicker cycle. You also need to get your stable PH figured out in your mind before doing fish. Freshwater fish "may" adapt to everything but a constant PH bounce will hurt all of them. Also your GH KH are relevant.

You can plant them in substrate AND just float them which is healthy for the plant and the water parameters. They love and eat nitrates. (see my pic)

You can use the Fish-less cycle method using liquid ammonia (easiest - see Dr Tim's) or using fish food that resembles the quantity you'd be feeding your fish. To create a strong bio. One Betta will create much less than a school of other fish.

Your hardscape also matters. Woods, some stone/rock and botanicals change PH.

Without fish you have the luxury of letting it run wild and cycle quickly without constant water changes, testing worries and drama.

IMO, Seachem PRIME Is the most important thing you can use when you get fish because it dechlorinates and binds ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so even if you have them, the fish is protected for 48 hrs. Then I suggest Seachem Stability (follow the instructions exactly) or Dr. Tim's to help create your bio.Stability claims you can add fish on the 8th day of use of the product. BUT remember you don't have a real bio yet and don't know how much waste will be generated by adding a certain amount of fish so you don't want to dump 10-20 fish in all at once!

I started with Eco Complete and my PH ran super high, combined with my high > 8.2 PH tap water.

So I dumped it and changed to Fluval Stratum and then it ran low (6 - 6.5) even WITH my high PH tap water (and all bottled spring waters)...until I got it stable around 6.5 - 6.7 between my high tap and adding a large seiryu stone.

It's a losing battle trying to chemically control your PH after the fact and not good for the fish.

I also believe aeration and water temp may contribute although I can't prove that. (although warmer water will cycle more quickly but the plants don't love cooking in hot water!)....But aeration will definitely affect your plant choices IMO. ie Bolbitis heudelotiI LOVE moving water but not all fish do. I'm hoping mine overtakes the left to middle side over the Jangle wood on the slate. (it's behind the wood and next to it.

You can start with only a couple of "anchor" plants that are low light and low maintenance then chose others later if you want. Just float a bunch not planted like in my pic.Some plants you can superglue or attach with thread or a cable tie to your hardscape. I did that with a couple here. SO MUCH easier than the annoyance of "planting" correctly especially in loose substrates. You can't bury rhizomes but you can glue them on a rock to keep above substrate level.

I was attempting to go "all natural" but adding Purigen changed my entire tank parameters for the better, too! I replaced the filter media with Matrix for biological and put a small pre filter sponge on the Aqua Clear intake tube. So I have the pre-filter on the tube, the sponge in the filter, the Matrix on top of that sponge in the filter, then the Purigen on top getting hit with the water last.

I may or may not keep the Purigen since my goal is a blackwater tank. Purigen will filter out some tannin. The botanicals in this pic also contribute to my lower PH. I used a Floramax florescent plant light because the new LED was heating my tank too much.So that's why it looks a little pink.

There's one Betta living in this 20 L

 

AND...I don't know if you'll have heater drama - I did. But I strongly recommend this Hygger heater. I tried them ALL. Various complaints but mostly my problem was they overheated my tank. The highly recommended Fluval E was a bomb - it's finicky and MUST be on a 45 degree angle and barely fit in my tank.

The only things the Hygger has in the tank are the tube and sensor and all the controls and readings are external! I have the box attached to the wall with a Command strip. I LOVE this heater and it's been 100% perfect for weeks now. Fingers crossed. So far the actual readings are within .5. I keep it between 78 and 80 max. It's set for 79 and the reading is exactly 78.7 and has been for days.

I double check it with an old school thermometer and an infrared temperature gun, which I also love for fish keeping. You can shoot your tap water, water change bucket waters, aquarium, ambient air....even food you're cooking for yourself LOL.



Infrared gun: