Columnaris or tb or something else?

tan.b

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I got these male guppies on saturday, and the day after I got them they were not very active, then I noticed the scales were fading (which happen when I bought my other male guppies ages ago), so used melafix as this saved 3 out of 5 of them last time. anyway, on tuesday night one was lying on the gravel with a split tail and 2 were hovering at the surface. then yesterday (wednesday) the one lying on the gravel had vanished, and I found the remains last night. yesterday 2 more had split tails. 1 of them has hardly any scales on its body. they aren't well. now this is all very similar to what happened in my other tank with my other fish and it didnt spread to myother fish, so I hope it doesn't this time. did some reading on tb and it says its not that contagious, so fingers crossed. it also says tb prefers cooler temps hence its rare transmissions to humans. it likes warm wet environments, so I'll turn up the temp. looking at these pics, what do you think? my other fish died a day after the split tail thing, so I guess the days are numbered for the remaining ones. just in case it is fungal i've put some salt in.
I had a right trauma with the lfs. won't be stepping in there again! rang them and asked if the fish were under warranty...they said yes, bring in some water and so long as its not that that's the problem we'll refund. so I drove the 15 miles there with ill 2 yr old with water which i'd tested myself a few times over the past few days anyway (as you do when fish get ill) and knew that was fine. they checked it and agreed and said there's nowt they can do, guppies don't live long anyway! > > I argued the point that i'd expect them to live over a week, maybe a yr or 2 and he didnt seem to see my point ???. so, an hour later and a round trip of 30 miles and a crying toddler and all he told me was my water is fine! I knew that already!! what a wasted trip that was! also he only tested ammonia and nitrite, so for all he knew I could have taken in tap water!! the nitrate would confirm its tank water! how daft! also for all he knows I could have really high nitrate! anyway, rant over and back to the poorly fish i'm left with!

Re: columnaris or tb?

is this pic any better?

update: the blue one in these pictures as expected really, died this afternoon. he disappeared and after a thorough hunt found him curled/bent in half in the castle, but he was intact. I really don't like fish eating fish at the best of times, but when they're diseased, and another fish consumes the fish+disease its gonna end up ingesting more disease if that makes sense. especially if the rasboras or plecs who are healthy start eating the diseased ones. if I had the guts i'd euthanise the 3 remaining guppies, but i'm worried I'll cause them suffering even though I know they're suffering now. i'm mad I know! also being the optimist I hope they just might recover. the yellow one looks the healthiest out of the 3 remaining, and the red one I doubt will make it through the night. the red/black stripy one is inbetween. I reckon they'll die a day at a time. :'( can't believe how quickly it takes hold and destroys them. typical scenario:
day 1: hanging at surface then resting on gravel then back at surface etc. spend brief moments swimming about. body looks ok
day 2: same as above + faded/whitish looking scales first appearing along the back with a ridge down each side of the body near the top, loss of colour throughout incl tails
day 2-3: bits of body flesh deteriorate and appear to be missing. fish looks whitish.
day 3-4: tail splits in half and there's more of a black tinge to the entire fish
day 4-5: a day after tail splits, fish hides and dies.
so far thankfully the rasboras and plecs are fine (oh and the shrimp!) - the shrimp lives in the castle so he may have dragged the body of the guppy in to eat? think it would be too heavy for him, but who knows. ants are stronger than they look after all!!!
tan
 

susitna-flower

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HI tan, I was wondering what was going on with you! Sorry about the new guppies :'( . I have never had luck with guppies, I have been told they are especially sensitive to changes in water conditions, so you have to take it R E A L L Y S L O W when you first bring them home. I know the only one I have ever been able to keep alive is one I got as a baby (mistake in a bag with 3 otos) It was so small I had a hard time ever seeing it. It hid out in the plants until it was large enough to swim around with the big boys.....It is still there, however someone nipped his tail, so he isn't a raving beauty, but he's healthy.

Fish in the Frozen North 8)
 
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tan.b

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helloooooooooooo susitna flower in the frozen north! not seen you about on here for ages! maybe i've just been on other boards to you lately? who knows!! hope all is well with you anyway!
yeah, having a nightmare at the mo! in one tank i've head and taillight tetras that got ich, then fin rot then they started attacking each other. my loach is depressed (only way I can describe it!) he;s not his usual lively self anyway, but not obviously ill either?! I think he;s just sulking and lazy! might get him some cories to play with and a couple more shrimps. they'll help with his cleaning workload too!! my new guppies ......they're dropping like flies! no deaths today so who knows which way they'll go. if they're still alive tomorrow I'll assume they'll make it. they look really ragged and they've no colour. quite pathetic really. I won't get any more guppies. if mine breed and babies survive then great, but I won't be buying any more from shops. hopefully the ones I have will keep the population going in my tanks! so each tank has an issue at the moment! so no more new fish for me just yet til I get ontop of the problems!! I just don't it!! I don't work, so have all the time in the world to care for them, I do everything you're supposed to do, yet I get sick fish. my sister bought fish, put in tank and they lived for ages. no cycling, no cleaning or anything!!! (dont know if any died, she hasnt said!!) but certinly she had a few fish that seemed ok which are what she gave me!! then to add to that my youngest son has chicken pox, so can't go out anywhere :!!!

hows things with you? started setting up that new tank yet?!! any plans yet on what's going in it?

tan
 

susitna-flower

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I've been around, no I haven't gotten my new tank set up yet, having to wait for $$$ to buy filters and so on...... I love the fish I have and will just be splitting them up between the two tanks. They are all healthy, and that is such a blessing. I think it is easier to keep them healthy after the tanks have been cycled for a good while.
I used to have problems when I added new fish to the tank, now it seems to go easier, they don't hide, or lay around or float near the top. Don't ask me, maybe I just take more care in getting them acclimated. When I got the new tank I also got 3 platties, one of those 'disappeared', still haven't found any trace, so I have no clue what might have happened. I don't want to accuse my Black Ghost Knife, because I have 9 cardinal tetras, and he doesn't touch them, so no telling.....Luckily of the three, I still have 1 male and 1 female, so maybe when I get the tanks split, they will be able to produce some fry. These are very pretty platties, the name is Sunset Fire Platy. A very bright orange, yellow with black fins. They complement the rainbows I have.

On another note, sorry you are having to deal with a sick child, chicken pox are no fun, but better now than when they are older. Has your other boy had them? When I was a kid my mom had me eat with my sisters spoon, and play with her when she got them, so I would go through it at the same time! : How are you on vaccinations? Some people don't believe in giving them, I always did, but when I was raising my kids they didn't have the one out for chicken pox yet. Here in Alaska you have to have all their vaccinations before they can attend public school, but once again, I don't know if this includes chicken pox. In the last few years they have come out with new shots though for hepatitis A and B, and my kids have all gotten those, because that is one thing that goes around our native villages. Since there is a lot of travel between the cities and the villages, with sports and so on, it is a necessary thing to protect from.

The important thing is for you not to get overwhelmed, with kids it can happen. So make time for yourself, enjoy your tanks, DON"T WORRY - BE HAPPY

Fish in the Frozen North, +18F this morning and cloudy.
 
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tan.b

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just a quick update. only one guppy left and he's doing well ;D. his colour is coming back slowly and the rasboras are all ok and so are the plecs in there and I thought one of the shrimp had died ages ago as I could only ever see 1 at any one time even when lifting up the castle....well, 2 strolled out of there the other day, so he must have been hiding really well somewhere ;D!! anyway, I'll leave the guppy in there for now....he keeps pretending to be a rasbora but can't keep up with them :, then swims off and sits on his own :'(. so after another week or so when i'm 100% sure he's fully recovered I'll put him with the other guppies in the other tank. will have to keep an eye on the girls though as the ratio will be way out (5 girls and 4 boys), but the 3 boys in there rarely bother the girls as it is. can't buy more girls to bring the ration back up cos will be overstocked. once my guppies breed can put a group in rasbora tank. I don't think he's happy on his own at the mo, but don't want to wipe out that full tank if he's still unwell :-\. whatever it is they had is def the same as what my other male guppies had when I brought them home and i've been obsessive about anti-bacterial handwash when i've been in the tank and keeping going in there to a minimum just in case.
 

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Looking at your guppy's tail and from my own experience get some stress coat and that should help with the tail. As I posted on a semI pirated thread with tan my finacee had a similar issue, out treatment (since we had NO idea what on God's green earth was going with her fish...) we treated for ick and then I thought maybe it was fungal so we used two doses of jungle buddies fungus tabs. Then after all that was said and done we used some stress coat in order help soothe their scales and ripped tails. Hope that help

~Inari
 
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tan.b

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inarI said:
Looking at your guppy's tail and from my own experience get some stress coat and that should help with the tail.  As I posted on a semI pirated thread with tan my finacee had a similar issue, out treatment (since we had NO idea what on God's green earth was going with her fish...) we treated for ick and then I thought maybe it was fungal so we used two doses of jungle buddies fungus tabs.  Then after all that was said and done we used some stress coat in order help soothe their scales and ripped tails.  Hope that help

~Inari
it really is something quite bizarre that doesn't totally fit with anything on the disease charts, but i've seen it wipe out fish twice now, so it can't be anything that rare surely?! i've been using plenty of stresscoat and water changes etc to try to help them, I was using melafix in an attempt to treat them, but more importantly to protect the other fish for catching whatever it was. I used it for a week (4 died in that time and used for a couple of days after that). as melafix is quite mild I figured it was worth a try, but whatever it was, was only limited to the guppies. the other 2 species in there are fine. either its species specific, or the guppies being new were prone and that's why they got it. the plecs went in at the same time though?! :-\ the more established rasboras maybe have a better immune system as are settled and also probably older too. babies of any animal are more susceptible to disease as they're immune systems are immature. the tails are most odd as they split in half over night then die soon after. that was the last thing to happen and it was that which confirmed to me they'd be dead in the morning. i'd be interested in the pathology of how and why this happens (i'm a scientist, so i'm a bit weird like that! :-[ disease and pharmacogy facinate me :!). there was a predictable pattern to how the diseased progressed. if money was no object i'd be interested to get them cultured and find out what bacteria it was. there was no cotton wool growths, so i'm fairly sure it wasn't fungal, but I feared for a secondary fungal infection because of the open sores. I don't think fungus would destroy and kill that fast either? anyway, at least one survived. he's still doing well. shame his colour faded. the other guppies this happened to a while ago never got their vibrant colour back. it has always remained duller. scarred for life I suppose. I won't be buying anymore guppies now. I'll just breed what I have. may be guppies just don't travel well? who knows?
 

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Tan, I saw a link yesterday that really explains disease symptoms that may help. You may not want to order any supplies from this company, as they are very expensive, but you can get a good idea of what ingredients to look for to treat things, but best of all they give excellent descriptions of symptoms.
Just like you I have had problems with guppies, only one has ever survived for me. I think it is a matter of VERY SLOW acclimation. They also have to go into a fully cycled tank, and with low nitrates. I know you watch these closely, that is just what I've been told.

Fish in the Frozen North 8)
 
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tan.b

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thanks susitna flower! someone else showed me this link yesterday I think or I stumbled across it - can't remember exactly how I got to it!! it is good, but I still can't find my fishy prob on here! if I knew whether it was gram +or - it would help! there's some fab info though to keep in mind for any other diseases i'm bound to come across!!
thanks again!
tan
 

susitna-flower

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On that site can you get to the link for fin disorders? It says there what you have going on could be a ph problem. It describes the fin rot, as well as the washed out colors. I'm no expert, just thought it might help!

Fish in the Frozen North 8)
 
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tan.b

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susitna-flower said:
  On that site can you get to the link for fin disorders?   It says there what you have going on could be a ph problem.   It describes the fin rot, as well as the washed out colors.   I'm no expert, just thought it might help!

Fish in the Frozen North  8)
oooooo, I think I must have missed that bit!! my pH in that tank is a very reliable 7.4 which seems ok. nothing extreme. :-\ i'm more puzzled now!!!!!! lol! sounds like the very thing though! although to be honest I only check pH weekly, so anything could happen in the meantime. can't see how though as nothing changes during the week :-\. my water changes are just on a saturday now (all cycled and sorted at last!! ). unless......the lfs tanks have a very diff pH to me and the change for them did it? if the lfs has a very low or very high pH then that could have an effect? will have a good read in the morning. i'm shattered and its getting late!!!
thanks susitna-flower! you're a star!
tan
 
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tan.b

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a-haaaaaaaaaaa! I found it! I wasn't looking at fins the first time, I was looking at body and bacteria and internal probs. everything but fins really!!!! it didnt seem the fins were the deathly part if that makes sense?! the fins seemed a more minor problem. the dissolving flesh etc was more concerning.
that sounds very much like it!! too high pH then . as I said, my pH is 7.4, but maybe if the lfs has 6.4 for example, and the fairly sudden jump from 6.4 to 7.4 may do it? the water changes it suggests wouldnt have done any good as i'd just be adding more 7.4 in! I think i'd just have to acclimate them really really slowly to my tank and ph. that's if I ever bought guppies again which I doubt . I'll just create my own with my girls and boys I already have ! at least they'd be born into 7.4!! well that solves the mystery as to why the other fish werent affected too. you're a star susitna-flower! thank you.
 

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