Cichlid Tank - 40g Or 75g - Canister For Pristine Water -- Is It Worth It?

So I realize these questions have been asked before... and I have spent the last week reading most of the threads I could find on this topic from this forum and others, but hoping to get a very specific question answered that LFSs differ and online the topics of discussion vary. I just went to a very reputable LFS this weekend who runs all AC110s in his home and in the store... My local guy told me he runs a canister and an ac110 at home.

My goal is crystal clear water...and I now have an overstocked 40 gallon african malawI tank, and plan soon to upgrade to a 75g. I understand from most people that maintaining a canister is a hassle, even though you can do it less. I would agree it looks that way.

Is it reasonable to expect to maintain a clear tank with multiple AC110s (which from an ease of maintenance and risk of leak problems perspective I would prefer)? If so, how would you load the AC110s -- both the same with mech/chem/bio, or one with sponge/bio and the other with all sponge and floss?

And if it really must be a canister.... people seem to love Eheim, but the maintenance and setup looks more complicated and primitive -- what is the BEST bang for the buck for reliability and maintenance?

Thanks in advance!!!!!

 

I don't really know what an AC110 is, are we talking about a HOB?

I used to have a super cheap HOB for my 55gal African tank, then I switched to a canister rated for a 90 gal and I will never go back to HOBs for Africans. I only clean mine about once every three months and it's pretty easy for me. I use a Marine Land and it was easy to set up. The flow is pretty great and it pushes all the poo to the intake and it gets sucked right up. After I discovered filter floss my water is perfectly clear.

The only think I dislike about the marineland filter is how cheap and flimsy the plastic intake and output are. They haven't broken (thank goodness) but they could be made out of something a bit more sturdy. The filter has been running for 2 years I think and it was only a tiny but leaky when I first set it up. Haven't had any problems since.

 

Thanks Demeter for your response...that's good info!!! Yes AC110 is the Aquaclear 110 HOB. rated "500gph" and for up to 110g tanks and pretty much considered the gold standard for HOBs.

And yes the leak thing is something that bothers me a lot since I haven't used canisters yet. There is only point of potential leak in the AC HOB (aside from the box just cracking open)... the o-ring at the motor assembly, so that's simple to keep an eye on and replace. I also use a layer of filter floss in it with the regular sponge and chemical and bio media (chemipure elite, ceramic rings and seachem matrix).

In terms of your results though...is your african tank "overstocked", in terms of number of fish/species type? Mine wasn't originally but several of them most have grown up now...and I have about 19 total cichlids in my 40 with a few relativelyI large mbuna and peacocks (+ 2 bristlenose plecos).

 

Oh man I don't really know how many fish I have in there, I kept throwing in the largest fry so they could grow out faster and I can decide who I want to keep.

After a quick count I think there's roughly 20 and a synodontis that's about 4 inches long. about 2/3 the fish are still juveniles (2-3) just starting to show their genders while the others are adults from 4-5 inches long. I'd say it's over stocked and it will only get more crowed once the little ones grow out. Only 2 of the fish are mbunas, 1 is a big female peacock, 2 are victorian haps (one is a smaller species the other a young EB ahli) and the rest are my own crosses of peacock/yellow labs. It is by no means a "balanced" African tank, but no one is trying to kill each other and really that's about all you can ask for with Africans.

 

in my personal opinion, you should not have a water quality issue with 2 ac 110's on a 75. That's over 10x filtration and should be fine. I personally like sunsun canisters and have been using them for over 2 years with 0 problems. I have a sunsun 404 and a sunsun 304 on my 75g. That's about 900 gph which is a little less than what 2 110's will give you but if it were me I'd go in that direction, or alternatively a sunsun 404 and an ac110. Eheims are very nice canisters but I think they are overpriced most times and like you said, the maintenance on them can be more difficult than a sunsun depending on the model. Not as much bang for your buck.

As for loading the ac 110's i'd go with foam, then biomedia (biomax or matrix are good), then if you still have some room a bag of purigen on top

 

As far as canister filters go, they are more efficient in the filtration area due to having a larger surface area for capturing debris. Some people hate canister filters due to size and weight, on the maintenance side they really don't require much. I change out the filter floss every couple of months, alternating between the 2 filters.

 

Same here with my sunsuns. I do maintenance about every 2 months (sometimes 3 if I'm extra lazy). Usually I just throw out the filter floss (or wash it really well in the sink if I think it's salvageable) and quickly squirt my biomedia off to get any accumlated gunk then stick it back into dechlorinated water.

 

in my personal opinion, you should not have a water quality issue with 2 ac 110's on a 75. That's over 10x filtration and should be fine. I personally like sunsun canisters and have been using them for over 2 years with 0 problems. I have a sunsun 404 and a sunsun 304 on my 75g. That's about 900 gph which is a little less than what 2 110's will give you but if it were me I'd go in that direction, or alternatively a sunsun 404 and an ac110. Eheims are very nice canisters but I think they are overpriced most times and like you said, the maintenance on them can be more difficult than a sunsun depending on the model. Not as much bang for your buck.
As for loading the ac 110's i'd go with foam, then biomedia (biomax or matrix are good), then if you still have some room a bag of purigen on top

Yeah I have seen some info and will research sunsun further....most tend to push Eheim, Fluval, Rena or Cascade, so those are the ones I concentrated on. If I go canister I definitely want it to be the most practical to maintain, but by the same token if it doesn't filter well enough, or if its prone to leaks, then what's the point, right?

in my AC110 I have the foam sponge, then a layer of filter floss, chemipure elite, and then 2 large bags with matrix in one and ceramic rings/biomax in the other for my 40 gallon cichlid tank. I even have a 9w UV filter in the tank which cleared the cloudiness at first, but now its back a bit. I am considering adding an extra AC110 to my 40 gallon for now anyway.... maybe focus that one on all sponge and filter floss....maybe sandwich the filter floss in the middle between 2 sponges...that should me more mechanical and bio at the same time.

As far as canister filters go, they are more efficient in the filtration area due to having a larger surface area for capturing debris. Some people hate canister filters due to size and weight, on the maintenance side they really don't require much. I change out the filter floss every couple of months, alternating between the 2 filters.

Thanks for the advice...obviously neither of you find the canister more trouble, and that makes sense they should do better filtering due to the amount of surface area and media.... So which canisters do you have, max?

 

I'm using 2 Marineland Magniflow 360's on my 110 gallon now. I had a C-360 that developed a stuck primer button last week and Marineland replaced it with a Magniflow under warranty no questions asked, it only had 6 weeks left under warranty. They didn't want the old filter back and it still works I just have to prime it using my Aqueon water change system. I also have some older Marineland Magnum 350 and 220 filters which are work horses.

 

I used a HOB for about a week when I built my Cichlid tank, ran a single Marineland 360, then two of them, and now a Fluval FX4. I will probably never go back to HOB, I LOVE my canisters (I have a sponge filter in the tank too).

IMO the high points are:
*Less noise (outlet can be completely underwater if you wish)
*Less frequent maintenance
*Larger, just plain and simple
*More freedom on media in most cases, I don't buy anything pre done now, just in bulk and extra bags to arrange however I want
*Flow through the media, for example you also run purigen, I am pretty confident that a canister does a better job pushing the water THROUGH the media, rather than around it

From my own research when I was looking just a few weeks ago and got my FX4, while great for large tanks with a high stock of fish/messy fish it lacks a little bit in the bio capacity (IMO and many others as well I have come across), the Eihiems I have never owned but read a lot of good things about them, more bio cap but less mech and they reduce in flow/need to be cleaned more often. However even then its not like a once a week activity!

Me personally - the FX4 fit perfect in my stand (the Marinelands were to tall and forced me to leave the doors cracked) so I went with it as its pretty short while still being huge. If I had my 100% choice while being within the same budget of the FX4 I would have gone with 2x Fluval 406's - just for added redundancy. I have a 306 on a 40gal community and love it.

As for leaking, I don't think that should be a huge fear, sure having the water leave your tank via hoses poses risks, but as long as you are careful, make sure you have good connections, don't have an animal in the house that would chew on them (lol), you should be fine!

Hope that rant helps

 

I can't even hear my canisters running unless I open the stands doors.

 

I'm using 2 Marineland Magniflow 360's on my 110 gallon now. I had a C-360 that developed a stuck primer button last week and Marineland replaced it with a Magniflow under warranty no questions asked, it only had 6 weeks left under warranty. They didn't want the old filter back and it still works I just have to prime it using my Aqueon water change system. I also have some older Marineland Magnum 350 and 220 filters which are work horses.

I do have to join in here and give Marineland a pat on the back as my C-360 also have a stuck primer and the little insert on the filter head that goes into the basket stack fell out - zero questions asked, filter was bought ~2 years ago and sent me a brand new Magnaflow 360, even payed for the shipping! Awesome customer service.

 

They definitely have good CS, didn't even ask for the old filter back. The C-360 is still usable it's just takes a little more effort to prime with a positive water flow. I normally only have to prime when I clean the hoses as it is.

 

I used a HOB for about a week when I built my Cichlid tank, ran a single Marineland 360, then two of them, and now a Fluval FX4. I will probably never go back to HOB, I LOVE my canisters (I have a sponge filter in the tank too).
...
As for leaking, I don't think that should be a huge fear, sure having the water leave your tank via hoses poses risks, but as long as you are careful, make sure you have good connections, don't have an animal in the house that would chew on them (lol), you should be fine!

Hope that rant helps

Thanks!!! I wanted to just get an AC110, but I'll admit I'm more sold on the canister now ... and that's the reason I posted this...

So you guys both have/had marineland, and of course you have Fluvals. An FX6, or used FX5 are really too expensive and its overkill for my future 75g, let alone my current 40g. What would you recommend for my 40 gallon cichlid tank (for now)? Your 40 gallon was a community you said, and you had a 306. I assume by most community fish standards it was a fairly low to moderate bioload, and from what I've read of the 306 specs it would be too small and too low flowrate for my overstocked 40 gallon african tank.

For best bang for the buck, do you recommend a 406? D0 you think marineland is good enough/reliable? Do you know anything of cascade as an alternative to Fluval and eheim?

thanks again, your advice is most appreciated!!!

 

I don't think you can really go wrong with either a Fluval 406 or a Marineland Magniflow 360. I have never used a 406 but people think highly of them, as far as the 369 goes I have no complaints at all. Eheim's you really don't hear many complaints on, just not as many users. The Sunsun filters are cheaper, there's a lot of people that like them, The 303/403 would work well in the 40 since they are a 370gph filter.

 

Thanks Max.... ok so one last question...promise... ...
Since you only need to service once a month or 2...When you do weekly or biweekly vacuums/water changes do you change enough water to break the syphon and do you need to shut off the canister? Also...A big problem obviously with cichlid tanks and the sand substrates is they kick it up into the filters and every now and then my impeller gets jammed in the HOB filters. Is that more likely I'm going to have to crack open the canister for that...Or is the impeller reached AFTER the water goes through the media?

 

I actually leave the filters running while I do water changes. The intakes are just an inch or two above the sand so the levels never get that low to break suction. With the filters off yes suction can be broken once the outlet is exposed in theory. On my filters the water flows from bottom to top with a polishing pad or filter floss as the last media prior to the water hitting the impeller, so far I have only found a very small amount of sand in the bottom of the filters with no evidence of any getting up to the filter floss.

 

I run a pair of SunSun 404s on my 185. I clean them about every 3 months, and clean them in roughly the manner outlined by tyguy. I run a pair of Penguin 550 HOBs in my 20 gallon (for redundancy due to sand issues). I spend less time in a year on my canisters than I do the HOBs. That includes changing cartridges, and cleaning/restarting them after the HOBs jam.

I have never broken the siphon on my cans during water change, and the Sunsuns have a shutoff valve on the line to prevent it, but I don't close it unless I am going to open the case (have to to remove the lines). The water flow through the Sunsun unit (and I assume others are similar) is that water is siphoned out of the tank, runs through the filters, and then the impeller pumps it back up to the tank, so any sand they pick up should be filtered out before getting there. In fact in 2.25 years of cans and sand the only impeller I have damaged was because I shut the valves during a water change and forgot to open them again, and let the filter run that way for over a week. It got too hot and cooked the magnet.

Africans are dirty fish to be sure, which is one of the reasons I got rid of them. If I had known such a thing as canister filters existed back then I might still have them.

 

Thanks Max.... ok so one last question...promise... ...
Since you only need to service once a month or 2...When you do weekly or biweekly vacuums/water changes do you change enough water to break the syphon and do you need to shut off the canister? Also...A big problem obviously with cichlid tanks and the sand substrates is they kick it up into the filters and every now and then my impeller gets jammed in the HOB filters. Is that more likely I'm going to have to crack open the canister for that...Or is the impeller reached AFTER the water goes through the media?

I, unlike Max, do turn mine off when I do water changes and yes the outlet will drain a bit, but the filter itself is below the tank (as it needs to be) and the inlet never gets exposed unless you are doing a MASSIVE water change. I just flip it back on when I am done, some bubbles come out but no issues restarting.

As for you other question, a 406 I think would be fine for your 40 gal setup, but since you stated you are overstocked and will probably go bigger later I would look into the FX4, bit more pricey now but will also be able to swap onto your next tank just fine unless you go HUGE! Or you could just stick with the 406 for now and grab a second later when you need it.

 

I, unlike Max, do turn mine off when I do water changes and yes the outlet will drain a bit, but the filter itself is below the tank (as it needs to be) and the inlet never gets exposed unless you are doing a MASSIVE water change. I just flip it back on when I am done, some bubbles come out but no issues restarting.

As for you other question, a 406 I think would be fine for your 40 gal setup, but since you stated you are overstocked and will probably go bigger later I would look into the FX4, bit more pricey now but will also be able to swap onto your next tank just fine unless you go HUGE! Or you could just stick with the 406 for now and grab a second later when you need it.

Sorry I delayed in responding. But thanks so much for the input. Yeah the thing is my cabinet for the 40 only has a 12 inch door so it's a great stand but not made to put in anything large from the front. I'm looking at the 406 the sunsun and cascade canisters as well and looks like they will barely make it unless I pit them outside the cabinet for now...
FX4 would be too big... not to mention it looks like the motor and impeller for the fx4 is in the bottom so doesn't look like it has the same safety factor for sand intake..but maybe I'm seeing it wrong. I know that other cichlid people use the fx series and love them...

Also I appreciate that you guys have considered your stock and bioload...or at least mine. I have seen some people esp on youtube praising their canisters but yet they have a 30 gal planted tank with a small school of tetra....lol. A single AC30 could handle that....and then some...

Thanks again...all of your input is incredibly valuable!!!!

 

Yes, stand/cabinet size is also a major consideration. In my mind the relatively massive amount of space outside the tank is the only draw back to cans. Lack of space is why the 55 I have for my daughter's room is going to have HOBs.

 

With my 55 a Magniflow 360 just fit inside the wood stand, on my 110 gallon with the additional width and length I can get both filters in the stand and 2 5 gallon buckets.

 

FX4 would be too big... not to mention it looks like the motor and impeller for the fx4 is in the bottom so doesn't look like it has the same safety factor for sand intake..but maybe I'm seeing it wrong. I know that other cichlid people use the fx series and love them...

You are correct on the pump placement, however the water going to the inlet has passed through the outside and inside set of media before hitting it. So far I have seen sand in mine when I open it up but I think this may just have fallen from the outside ring to the bottom and not actually be in the inside ring where the pump inlet would be. Seems to be OK so far in my case

 

With my 55 a Magniflow 360 just fit inside the wood stand, on my 110 gallon with the additional width and length I can get both filters in the stand and 2 5 gallon buckets.

Yeah in my case the current tank and stand is a 40 gallon breeder, so it's the same width as a 75g, but 3 ft long. The problem isn't the size in the stand... its the potential for having issues getting it in the single door on this particular stand. THe FX4 is 15.4 x 15.4 x 16.5 , so no chance it's going in this stand... The 406 is a little smaller it seems but the cascade has 10 and 11.5" dimensions so getting it in and out of the door with no room for the hands I can see being problematic.

You are correct on the pump placement, however the water going to the inlet has passed through the outside and inside set of media before hitting it. So far I have seen sand in mine when I open it up but I think this may just have fallen from the outside ring to the bottom and not actually be in the inside ring where the pump inlet would be. Seems to be OK so far in my case

Cool... thanks Bizarro... so I figured I probably wasn't looking at the design correctly...

UPDATE....Thanks again to all for your advice!!!

So I went and got a canister for the 40 gallon -- fluval 406 -- my first journey into the world of canisters over HOBs. Installed it just Friday, and with no other major changes except a 25% water change on Sat. the water today looks very clear. The water was still pretty cloudy and had lots of particulates Friday night when I started the new filter, and through Saturday afternoon following the water change, but as of this morning it is very clear -- far more clear than I expected considering I didnt even leave the AC110 in place. I had a 9W UV filter in place already, so I left that running to be a scientific as possible in comparing apples-apples (406 vs AC110). There is a VERY light haze you can see only when the aquarium light is on and looking long-ways through the aquarium side, but otherwise the water is a crystal clear I haven't seen in a long time in this cichlid tank.

I used the biomax rings and Seachem Matrix from my AC110 to seed it, and filled the rest of the filter with the small amt of biomax rings supplied with the 406 and added Seachem de-nitrate for the rest (was going to get more Matrix, but didnt want to wait to order online and my LFS only had De-Nitrate). I don't suspect it will actually help with nitrates the way it's marketed since the flow rate is definitely higher than 50 gph, so it should just work like more Matrix. I used the first tray as intended with the medium foam and filter floss/polishing pad for the series of coarse/medium/fine mechanical media, then filled the next 2.5 trays with all the bio-media. I used the top 1/2 tray for the carbon and a final filter floss layer.

Obviously I need to wait first one full week (when I usually have a very much visible cloudy/dirty water column and tank walls), then ultimately 3-4 weeks to see how well the water holds up or even improves over a normal period between filter cleanings with the increased bio-filtration. But so far the water looks good, the output stream is plenty high in comparison with the AC110, and it is definitely more quiet (not that the AC110 was bad)... I may be counting the chickens before they hatch, and hopefully I'm not going to be disappointed next weekend, but from all the reviews I've gotten so far and your input, I'm thinking we'll be fine.....

I'm still on the fence about continuing to use carbon/chemipure in the top chamber.... maybe just revert to purigen only...or leave it out an max the whole thing with bio and a top layer of floss....

 

Awesome glad you are happy with your choice! I also recently...about a month ago...stopped using chemipure elite and instead just left the purigen in there and added some phosban... no carbon any more at all. I am happy with it so far!

 

Great!! Yeah I have used seagel, and both the chemipure elite and blue before as well as purigen separate. Never was sure what worked better since so many things affect water appearance.

Any reason for phosban over phosguard? I have some leftover phosguard and thought I noticed it made the water cloudy in my discus/angel tank right after putting it in, so I haven't used it since. I may have been wrong...the cloudiness may have been from something else (and I did rinse it off first like always with new media)... Anyway, seemed like Phosban was more of a favorite with saltwater/reef owners in their sumps...

 

Whoops I meant phosgaurd

 

Hey guys I'm going to jump in here fairly new to the hobby I have a 75 gallon stocked with
1 green terror
1 fire mouth
1 ebd
1 jewel
1 black convict
1 yellow lab
I'm running a aqua clear 70 hob
And a 500 gph power head
I'm thinking to add another filter but want the money to be well spent any thoughts here?

 

A 75 gallon with only 5 fish shouldnt be bad at all....Though I'm not positive how large a couple of those get...So if any are monsters like Oscars your stocking is finished for sure.
They say gph should be 10x the gallons...So for you that would be 750. The powerhead is good flow but I think that refers to filtration gph. An AC110 might be fine for you....But for a 75 gallon tank with potentially large cichlids I'd think you'd want 2 AC110s...Or add a canister made for 150+ tanks...like the fx4....or a Cascade 1200/1500

 

They say gph should be 10x the gallons

Starting point is ~10x for HOB, ~5x for canisters FYI.

 

Really? Ok cool...thanks.
Didn't know that I had only heard the 10x rule for cichlids and messy fish and 4-5x rule for other...Never realized it was by filter type...

 

At least that's the general rules of thumb I have come across time and again out there, I would say those are starting points on something like an Mbuna tank where you are deliberately overstocked with messy fish . Also keep in mind that (at least on canisters, maybe to a less extent on HOB) the rated flow is with no media so that flow will be less in the real world.

My Cichlid tank for example is 75 gal (not really 75 gal of water in there due to rock and such, but hey lets go with it) with an FX4 rated at 700GPH no media. I guesstimate I get 70% of that rated flow since I have a lot of media and floss in my filter, so that's 490GPH / 75gal that's still > 5 at 6.5 so I am happy with that.

Canisters are considered more efficient just because of the higher volume and surface area of the media, which is why the consensus seems to be 5x vs 10x.

 

At least that's the general rules of thumb I have come across time and again out there, I would say those are starting points on something like an Mbuna tank where you are deliberately overstocked with messy fish . Also keep in mind that (at least on canisters, maybe to a less extent on HOB) the rated flow is with no media so that flow will be less in the real world.

My Cichlid tank for example is 75 gal (not really 75 gal of water in there due to rock and such, but hey lets go with it) with an FX4 rated at 700GPH no media. I guesstimate I get 70% of that rated flow since I have a lot of media and floss in my filter, so that's 490GPH / 75gal that's still > 5 at 6.5 so I am happy with that.

Canisters are considered more efficient just because of the higher volume and surface area of the media, which is why the consensus seems to be 5x vs 10x.

Great...and I think you said your water is very clear with that fx4 didnt you? and how many fish do you have?
I'm also wondering if my water will get worse as the weeks go by before a cleaning or will it actually get better after a few and the new media gets colonized?

I am going to get a 75 and that fx4 looks impressive. I think I will go that route too

 

I'm thinking I'll add a ac110 hob for the money $$ it should get the job done.. My current dilemma is that my water has not cycled I've been working my off to get it there but I'm concerned that if introduced a new filter and media it could set me back. The water has not reached toxic levels ppm but I'm doing water changes every two days and adding bacteria supplement and I added decorations from an established tank so I'm hoping to get through it and keep all the fish I have.

 

Add a few extra doses of Prime daily....Will neutralize the effects of ammonia or nitrites on the fish while getting through it

 

Prime in particular?

I also dose the tank with bacteria supplement and I added aquarium salt yesterday

 

I use prime...And stability for bacteria when starting a tank or adding fish. I don't know about the other conditioners but I assume they may do the same thing...No one ever recommended to me anything but prime for that.
Seachem stability says you can safely add fish while doing a startup 7 day dose...And my lfs once had me do the same

 

Yeah I used safe start and my fish are alive but water has not cycled. I'll go get some prime and continue the good fight thanks man. I'm in neck deep lol

 

Prime will detox the ammonia and nitrites for 24-48 hrs to give the bacteria around a chance to take care of those issues and multiply. And Bodie adding a canister at this wouldn't set you back at all as long as you keep the AC 110 running on the tank.

 

I don't think I want to go canister..I'm Leary of the price vs benefits I was thinking to add a ac 110 currently I'm running a ac70. Will adding the ac110 hurt the cycle process at first? Thanks I'm going to get the prime and dose daily along with bacteria supplement and water changes..