Cardinal Tetras With Neon Tetras

Apologies if this has been asked before but I couldn't find the thread nor could I find enough information on this topic.

About a month ago I purchased 6 neon tetras and put them through quarantine. Turns out my LFS must have had a cardinal in their neon tank and I ended up with the one cardinal tetra they had. So now I have a school of neons and one cardinal tetra. These fish are ready for my main tank but I am hesitating because I'm not sure about adding the cardinal. The main tank is a neon only tank with plants and snails.

From what I have read cardinals water parameters aren't that different from neons other than they prefer slightly acidic water and slightly warmer water. I have also read that a neutral ph isn't a big deal.

My question is can neon tetras and cardinal tetras be easily kept together? Have you kept or do you know somebody who has kept these fish together? What sort of water parameters would be ideal to keep both fish thriving?

Main tank : 75 degrees Fahrenheit KH : 75 ppm GH : 125 ppm PH : 7 Nitrates : 0/0/0
Quarantine : 75 degrees Fahrenheit KH : 70 ppm GH : 125 ppm PH 7 Nitrates 0/0/5

My idea if this can work would be to add the neon's and get a school of cardinals and quarantine them with the one I have.

If not then I will look to re-home or return the cardinal tetra.

Thanks!

 

In my opinion the schoolingbehaviour is different as wel. I'd re-home the fish

 

This thread Question: - Will cardinal tetras and neon tetras school?
A few people say as long as they are the same size/shape they will school together, but in all these examples it has been multiple tetras and multiple cardinals
If your tank is large enough you could add more cardinals
Why not put them in the main tank and see if they're friendly, the neons might not notice it's a different fish they might think its just a grown up neon and the cardinal might think they're just baby cardinals

 

In my opinion the schoolingbehaviour is different as wel. I'd re-home the fish

Thanks for the input!

I was originally planning on keeping my tank one species only to keep things simple. Then I found a cardinal in my latest group of fish I started thinking well these species are very similar so maybe I could keep them. However upon research I haven't found anybody that has a tank with both species. I still wonder why that is?

It does seem they have different schooling behaviors this was why I was considering adding a group of cardinals. I wouldn't have wanted to keep one cardinal with a group of neons even if they would school together.

This thread Question: - Will cardinal tetras and neon tetras school?
A few people say as long as they are the same size/shape they will school together, but in all these examples it has been multiple tetras and multiple cardinals
If your tank is large enough you could add more cardinals
Why not put them in the main tank and see if they're friendly, the neons might not notice it's a different fish they might think its just a grown up neon and the cardinal might think they're just baby cardinals

The cardinal currently schools with the other neons in quarantine however his behavior is a little bit different. I considered that the cardinal would consider itself a neon or vice versa but I wasn't sure if it was the right idea or not. This cardinal is also around the same size as the other neons and he was in a tank with only neons at the LFS so the fish might think its a neon tetra.

 

Cardinals are one of the few Tetras you can trick to school with Neons or other similar-looking fish, from my understanding they school for protection and its a lot easier to protect yourself if everyone looks the same and Cardinal Tetras looks quite alike to Neon Tetras. I don't see why you can't keep him even if it is a species tank, he'll just look like one of the group only slightly bigger and contain more red in his markings. Rehoming him would stress him out lots more than he needs to be, only move your fish if you absolutely need to (Or of course moving from them a QT Tank to the display, they can't stay there forever). But then again its your choice, the Neons would gladly School with the Cardinal and feel just as safe as if he were a Neon Tetra. Besides you could name him "King" or some other name since he has slightly more colorful markings.

 

Mine have successfully schooled together. When I bought some originally several years ago, I had some die off and the remaining go with the Neons. For some reason, the local pets stores such as petsmart and petco stopped selling Cardinals in the past 2 years so I have not been able to increase my school.

My temps are 73/75 - my oldest set of Cardinals are about 3.5 - 4 years old.

 

Thanks for the input!

I was originally planning on keeping my tank one species only to keep things simple. Then I found a cardinal in my latest group of fish I started thinking well these species are very similar so maybe I could keep them. However upon research I haven't found anybody that has a tank with both species. I still wonder why that is?

It does seem they have different schooling behaviors this was why I was considering adding a group of cardinals. I wouldn't have wanted to keep one cardinal with a group of neons even if they would school together.

I do have both Neons and Cardinals together in a 15-gallon planted aquarium for a couple of months now, and they seem to get along fine, even moving around together as a cluster (if that's what you mean by schooling together). Their individual behavior is not so different from each other I've observed over two months. So far so good. It's a good idea to mix these two species of Tetras and keep is as bi-species tank. It works just fine for me.

 

It is not a question of whether they will survive, it is a matter of whether they will thrive.

Neons have a temperature preference in the low 70s, while Cardinals are healthiest in the low 80s. You can keep both for a few years in the range in between, but you shorten the lives of both to perhaps 3-4 years if you're lucky. I've seen cardinals that were 8-9 years old and 2.5 inches in length. Biggest Neon I've ever seen was barely 1.75 inches, and they were kept at lower temperatures and lived over 8 years.

Further, Cardinals are only found in blackwater in nature. The commercially bred Cardinals from the far east are bred in natural Asian black water at natural temperatures in the 80 degree range, so they are not being adapted to a wider range of temperatures and pH. Neons in the wild are found in both black waters and clear, in cooler regions, and are naturally more adaptable to higher pH levels. Neons are commercially bred in Florida as well as Asia. Florida bred Neons tend to be healthy, Asian bred Neons tend to be weak. My guess is this is temperature related, as well as the strong dependence on antibiotics in fish raising in certain Asian regions.

Their individual behavior is not so different from each other I've observed over two months. So far so good.

That's like the guy who fell off a 40 story building. Around the 20th floor, he was heard to say as he went past, "so far, so good!". The end of the fall is inevitable, just remember that you were given fair warning.

 

I still have my one cardinal tetra in a lonely quarantine tank. It would be a whole lot easier to just put him in with the neons in the main tank but I know I would be favoring the parameters of my neons then the one cardinal tetra. I have decided against adding the fish but it leaves me with fewer options. My ideas are either to get 6 or so cardinals and do a 20 g planted cardinal only tank, or to find a home for the cardinal but so far I haven't found a LFS that will take the fish. Sounds to me I've got an excuse to set up another tank. Just a bit unfortunate I can't do something better for the fish at the moment but that's what happens when you don't thoroughly check your bag of fish at the store.

 

I think while you are setting up a cardinal tank, he would be better in with the neons, as it would be temporary. Someone more knowledgeable may correct me, but I think it would be ok short term, better than being alone.

 

I've always kept both. About 10 each, and they always school together. I don't think the fish notice the difference!

 

I was about to post a thread because I'm in a somewhat similar situation. I have 10 neons in my community tank (and they've been in there for months) and recently ordered 6 cardinals. Unfortunately, they were sick and I had DOAs. The rest, save for one, died in quarantine. Now I have a lonely cardinal still in the separate tank. Since it appeared to be very nasty infection that took his brethren out, I'm leaving him in there for a few more days to make sure he survives. But I was debating if he'd be okay with the neons or if I needed to find/order (from a different place, obviously) more cardinals. It seems like it's a debated subject though so I'm still unsure what I'll do.

 

I know this is a bump but I can't let misinformation take control.

Neons, cardinals and green neons will all shoal together. That's the end of that.

As for parameters etc., you can pretty much throw out temperature. As long as it's nothing extreme and they are acclimated properly then you will have healthy, happy fish. Yes there might be an ideal temperature, but a fish is still able to thrive in temperatures that are a little different than the absolute ideal. If you keep the temperature evenly between the two ideals and don't favour just one then both species will be thriving, not the absolute ideal but not too hot or cold either. As for the argument as to what water they prefer in nature, you're already taking them away from that, so that's a moot point. My point here is that as long as it's not too different to the best ideal, they'll do absolutely fine.

 

There is no overlap in ideal temperatures between those species. You are going to either shorten the lives of the Neons, or prevent the good growth of the Cardinals. Both species are capable of living well over 5 years, and your method will shorten the lives of both to about 2-3, and keep the Cardinals from ever reaching their full 2.5 inch size. They are not thriving under the conditions you are recommending, they are surviving. BIG difference.

 

There is no overlap in ideal temperatures between those species. You are going to either shorten the lives of the Neons, or prevent the good growth of the Cardinals. Both species are capable of living well over 5 years, and your method will shorten the lives of both to about 2-3, and keep the Cardinals from ever reaching their full 2.5 inch size. They are not thriving under the conditions you are recommending, they are surviving. BIG difference.

Yeah, you see, you're assuming that a shorter lifespan = not thriving, when in reality all that is happening is that the neon's metabolism is sped up and so it progresses through it's life faster. That doesn't mean it isn't thriving, that's like saying when you keep guppy fry in warmer water to speed their growth up they aren't thriving. They can still thrive, they will just grow faster and progress through their life cycle faster than usual. I'd agree that the cardinal isn't thriving in that case, but the neon is. If anything it's thriving more because it's growing faster.

 

Yeah, you see, you're assuming that a shorter lifespan = not thriving, when in reality all that is happening is that the neon's metabolism is sped up and so it progresses through it's life faster. That doesn't mean it isn't thriving, that's like saying when you keep guppy fry in warmer water to speed their growth up they aren't thriving. They can still thrive, they will just grow faster and progress through their life cycle faster than usual. I'd agree that the cardinal isn't thriving in that case, but the neon is. If anything it's thriving more because it's growing faster.

But for me to get the picture. Dead fish (2-3 years earlier than normal) aren't thriving. Are they ?

 

But for me to get the picture. Dead fish (2-3 years earlier than normal) aren't thriving. Are they ?

Well no, they aren't thriving if they are dead, but before that they were. They simply advanced through their life cycle faster than normal. I think you're having a hard time grasping this, just because a fish has advanced through its life cycle faster than usual doesn't mean it isn't thriving, it's just growing faster. I don't know how to explain that any more simpler than I already have.



Also, just some information:

According to fishlore:

Neon Tetra

'Temperature : 69°F - 79°F (21°C - 26°C)'

Cardinal Tetra

'Temperature : 73°F - 80°F (23°C - 27°C)'

According to fishlore, a temperature of 23-26 °c is acceptable for an aquarium housing both species.


According to wikipedia (which is the most reliable site ever but hey):

Neon Tetra

'an ideal temperature of 21–27 °C (70–81 °F) to resemble their native Amazon environments.'

Cardinal Tetra

'The preferred temperature range of the fish is 26 to 28 °C (79 to 82 °F).'

According to Wikipedia, a temperature of 26-27 °c is acceptable for an aquarium housing both species.



Two major sources agree with me, one of them being this site. I can find more if you like.

 

I understand what your saying, but I think our hobby is also about "giving" them their maximum (healthy) lifespan.

As coryfanatic I read a lot of corys "dieing of old age" after 5-7 years. If one knows they can get up to 20-25 years (some over 40) when kept in the right conditions can/do they thrive in that 5-7 years.

In your perspective they do, in mine they don't. But it's about how one sees the word thriving I think.

This is a ungoing discussion btw. I think we keep a lot of fish too warm over a long period shortening their lifespan.

Had a discussion on FB about fish needing to be kept at cooler temps. Funny thing is even the Coryguru nr.1 stated that bred Corys had adapted to higher temps.

That would mean that breeding fish for 70-80 years would change thousands of years of evolution. I think that's quite strange.

Kind regards, Aad

BTW : In my opinion the schooling behaviour of cardinals is totally different than neons.

 

Yes I think it most likely that:

Speeding through its life cycle = an unnecesarily shortened lifespan

Millions of year of evolution will be more influential than relatively recent domestication

Incorrect information can be found on the internet including Wikipedia and Fishlore

 

Yes I think it most likely that:

Speeding through its life cycle = an unnecesarily shortened lifespan

Millions of year of evolution will be more influential than relatively recent domestication

Incorrect information can be found on the internet including Wikipedia and Fishlore

And the mentioned temps are in most cases minimum and maximum temperatures and not necessarily the ones fish thrive (oops sorry for the word again) in.

 

Are the temperatures mentioned on reputable sites such as Seriously Fish based on the temperatures recorded in the native habitat?

The mean, median and especially the mode would be useful to know as well as the range.

 

Thanks for this thread! I ended up with the same thing as the OP and didn't know if I could keep these two species together. They are very happy and schooling blissfully together in my tank!

 

Thanks for this thread! I ended up with the same thing as the OP and didn't know if I could keep these two species together. They are very happy and schooling blissfully together in my tank!

Sorry, but I have to disagree with keeping the two species together. How long, a few weeks, maybe a couple of months? And what makes you think they are "happy"?

One of my sources of information predates the internet, and actually collected Neons from the upper Amazon in Peru, where they are found. My source of information on Cardinals collected them in the Rio Negro, in the lowlands of the Amazon basin, where they live. 99.9% of the temperature recommendations online are incorrect. I think it was changed because people wanted to keep their fish in a specific temperature range, and the only way to sell them Neons and Cardinals was to lie about their temperature preferences. Why it has been repeated in perpetuity online I can only attribute to laziness.

Thriving means breeding in my book. You cannot successfully breed either species in the upper 70s F. Neons breed around 73F, Cardinals breed at 82F. As for the idea that an individual with a shortened life is thriving, that verges on insanity. It is as bad as keeping a Betta in a half gallon drum bowl. After all, I've seen them live years like that, so it must be thriving, right?

 

Well no, they aren't thriving if they are dead, but before that they were. They simply advanced through their life cycle faster than normal. I think you're having a hard time grasping this, just because a fish has advanced through its life cycle faster than usual doesn't mean it isn't thriving, it's just growing faster. I don't know how to explain that any more simpler than I already have.



Also, just some information:

According to fishlore:

Neon Tetra

'Temperature : 69°F - 79°F (21°C - 26°C)'

Cardinal Tetra

'Temperature : 73°F - 80°F (23°C - 27°C)'

According to fishlore, a temperature of 23-26 °c is acceptable for an aquarium housing both species.


According to wikipedia (which is the most reliable site ever but hey):

Neon Tetra

'an ideal temperature of 21–27 °C (70–81 °F) to resemble their native Amazon environments.'

Cardinal Tetra

'The preferred temperature range of the fish is 26 to 28 °C (79 to 82 °F).'

According to Wikipedia, a temperature of 26-27 °c is acceptable for an aquarium housing both species.



Two major sources agree with me, one of them being this site. I can find more if you like.

The fishlore databases are known to be outdated and unreliable and literally any person can go onto Wikipedia and edit anything. So I wouldn't consider those reliable sources.

 

I have had some very long lived cardinals, and see that as a measure of how well I keep them. A short lifespan from environmental causes is a failure on my part as the aquarist who provides the conditions. Faster growth as thriving? I don't see it that way at all.

Fishfarms have been known to grow fish faster via antibiotics and hormone use, and I don't see that as positive except to their shareholders.

At the same time, if you have one tank and you get cardinals and neons mixed, you shoot for the best meeting ground you can, and take good care of them. It's not a tank I'd set up, but if that's what you got, it can still be a good tank with fish in a lot better state than they'd be still in the store that mixed them.

If you are going into a store though, the water and temperature differences are extremely important. I have a friend who has personally collected both species, and the ranges Chromedome reports are exactly what he reported.

 

Yes, I'm aware that information on the internet can be incorrect, I stated myself that Wikipedia is 'the most reliable site ever'.

Picture it this way: For whatever reason, you are going to advance through your life cycle faster than normal and will have a life expectancy of 40 years. You grow normally (relative to your growth rate), you grow to average size etc., you live a normal and decent life and you die when you are 38-45 years old. Even though you died 30 years earlier than normal and grew much faster than normal, you had a normal life. Did you not thrive as much as anyone else simply because you grew faster?

That's how I see it anyway. From my point of view you are all saying that you didn't thrive because you grew faster.

Also, the comparison of fishfarms using antibiotics and hormones to speed up growth isn't a good comparison, because that's not the same thing. That's deliberately exposing them to chemicals to make them grow unnaturally. What I'm saying on the other hand is completely natural and harmless to the fish.

And what makes you think they are "happy"?

The fact that the fish are acting normally.

 

Yes, I'm aware that information on the internet can be incorrect, I stated myself that Wikipedia is 'the most reliable site ever'.

Picture it this way: For whatever reason, you are going to advance through your life cycle faster than normal and will have a life expectancy of 40 years. You grow normally (relative to your growth rate), you grow to average size etc., you live a normal and decent life and you die when you are 38-45 years old. Even though you died 30 years earlier than normal and grew much faster than normal, you had a normal life. Did you not thrive as much as anyone else simply because you grew faster?

That's how I see it anyway. From my point of view you are all saying that you didn't thrive because you grew faster.

Sounds like the life of James Dean.
He thrived but for a very short period (which is a shame btw).

 

Sounds like the life of James Dean.
He thrived but for a very short period (which is a shame btw).

Can you see where I'm coming from now? I can to an extent understand what you are all saying but I just don't see the logic in it, I don't understand why nobody can seem to understand where I'm coming from.

 

I have 2 neons with 6 cardinals due to an error at the fish store :/ They do behave the same as the cardinals and chill with them but that could be because they are only 2. I wish I could keep my tank cooler but like Danny archer says on that movie blood diamond "TIA" only this is (Phoenix) Arizona

 

Can you see where I'm coming from now? I can to an extent understand what you are all saying but I just don't see the logic in it, I don't understand why nobody can seem to understand where I'm coming from.

Not true. I serious do understand what you mean to say. But besides thriving we owe the fish to keep them in best possible conditions to give them their longest possible lifespan as well.

 

I had a troll that lived for 1 year and lived a normal life, it thrived a certain amount.
I had another troll that lived for 2 years and lived a normal life, it thrived twice as much.
Can anyone see where I am coming from?

 

I had a troll that lived for 1 year and lived a normal life, it thrived a certain amount.
I had another troll that lived for 2 years and lived a normal life, it thrived twice as much.
Can anyone see where I am coming from?

That's a misrepresentation of what I said.

 

Just thought I would add to this

Cardinal Tetras are not temp compatible with Neons tetras!! for anyone else who is going to read this thread..


Cardinals 78F-82F
Neons 72F-74F