Cardinal tetras in quarantine

I noticed today that two of my cardinal tetras are more dull in color and one has a tumor around its eye and what appears to be another one starting to grow on its side. That came out of nowhere! I went ahead and set up a quarantine tank and because I'm not sure how many are sick, I moved all 12. Added some stress coat and aquarium salt. (I know not everybody recommends salt but it's helped me in the past.)
They were in my 65 gallon. The parameters have not changed, no ammonia spike. All other fish are healthy.

I've heard of neon tetra disease - is there cardinal tetra disease? The photos probably aren't very helpful, they are nervous after the move and wouldn't stay still enough to get pictures of the ones with growths.

 

Okay so it could just be flexibacterium columnare, it could just be 'fish cancer' lymphocistits.
unfortunately there is no cure for lymphocistits, nor neon tetra disease. yes the pathogen that affects neons can affect any fish. if it is ntd, you will see drooping tails shimmying and under the skin brown/tan lesions, not dots, lesions.
there is no cure for ntd, however lymphocistis is just like cancer they won't all get it and columnaris is easy to stop with good gram negative antibiotics.
a video or more pics would help, but I'm sure you can google

 

Can you place a pic of the affected fish.

They don't look ill / bad.
I would be dull in a bare bottom Q-tank as well.

 

They were dull prior to being moved. There is a white patch on their stomachs where it is normally a red stripe and the blue is faded. Not all of them are like that.

I can't really get a better picture of any particular fish because they scare easily when I get close with my camera. I'll try again tomorrow though.

When I came home tonight and checked on them, the two that have tumors are now swimming strangely. One of the fish now has what looks like a scrape/cut mark in addition to what I mentioned earlier.
It sounds most like the NTD pathogen /: I'll continue to monitor them and consider euthanasia if their condition worsens.

 

HI It does kinda sound like NTD but since ive only observed NTD in guppies I can only say that they have brownish lesions on the top and towards the back of the fish.
Its still possible it could be columnaris In my opinion.
Since you have no substrate, and NTD is substrate living "things"
The open red sore is not normal for columnaris tho.
Do you have any antibiotics on hand?

 

The cardinals in the pic don't show ANY symptom of NTD !! As said in other threads try not to call NTD in case of sick tetras. It is soooooo rare, has quite clear symptoms and is lethal for almost all fish. The white bellies are quite normal in decolored fish that aren't colored up cause of stress, surroundings, maybe to high Ph, maybe to hard water, maybe to low temperature etc etc.
I can't see any tumor or so on the fish in the pics.
A proper diagnose (certainly of NTD, Columnaris) simply isn't possible based on the posts or pics.

 

Not sure why you seem so defensive about it doubledutch? That's odd.
Like I said I can't get a clear picture of the fish with the tumors/growths so that's not a good representation.
Multiple fish are sick so it's not cancer (unless they all spontaneously developed it at the same time).
I stated that they are swimming abnormally and none of the other things apply that you mentioned (pH is acidic, no reason to be stressed, water is soft, temp is 79, nothing has changed).
They were in a 65 gallon planted tank with black sand when they became sick. The barebottom in the pictures is of the quarantine tank whitewolf.
It's very strange. As of today they have the growths that I first noticed, what look like scrape marks/lesions, and inflamed gills in the sickest ones. None of them look healthy now.
I don't have any antibiotics on hand, would it be worth it to give it a try?

 

Not sure why you seem so defensive about it doubledutch? That's odd.
Like I said I can't get a clear picture of the fish with the tumors/growths so that's not a good representation.
Multiple fish are sick so it's not cancer (unless they all spontaneously developed it at the same time).
I stated that they are swimming abnormally and none of the other things apply that you mentioned (pH is acidic, no reason to be stressed, water is soft, temp is 79, nothing has changed).
They were in a 65 gallon planted tank with black sand when they became sick. The barebottom in the pictures is of the quarantine tank whitewolf.
It's very strange. As of today they have the growths that I first noticed, what look like scrape marks/lesions, and inflamed gills in the sickest ones. None of them look healthy now.
I don't have any antibiotics on hand, would it be worth it to give it a try?

I am not defensive or so. Only thing is I am trying to explain one shouldn't mention all kind of (terrible) diseases and treatments without being able to do a proper diagnose. That's not your fault, but a fact.

So I'd simply would like to give a proper diagnose and then point someone to the right treatment.

Antibiotics only will work if this is a bacterial issue.


Regards Aad

 

I think you're doing okay, it is up to you about spending money on antibiotics. In my experience with tetras, they are hit and miss with how good they are to begin with (meaning really bad stock).
good luck.

 

I'm wondering if there is a good enough chance that it is bacterial to make purchasing antibiotics worth it.
Leftswerve I didn't take that into consideration - I purchased the cardinal tetras from a different LFS than usual. Perhaps I started out with a less than stellar stock.

 

Unfortunately, by the time I came home today they were in far worse shape. Some were swimming sideways and I felt that trying antibiotics wouldn't help them at that point. I decided to humanely euthanize them as kindly as I could with clove oil. So they're gone. :'(

Still not sure exactly what was going on but thanks for your help everybody.

 

Awww sorry ro hear. What it is seens to be quite progressive grrr

 

Yeah it got bad very quickly. At least they didn't suffer for very long and they were calm when they went to fishy heaven.

 

What a shame. Sorry that happened to you.
SIP, fishies!

 

The cardinals in the pic don't show ANY symptom of NTD !! As said in other threads try not to call NTD in case of sick tetras. It is soooooo rare, has quite clear symptoms and is lethal for almost all fish. The white bellies are quite normal in decolored fish that aren't colored up cause of stress, surroundings, maybe to high Ph, maybe to hard water, maybe to low temperature etc etc.
I can't see any tumor or so on the fish in the pics.
A proper diagnose (certainly of NTD, Columnaris) simply isn't possible based on the posts or pics.

Okay so NTD is often broguth in by feeders. its not that 'rare' especially in unclean environements with lots of fish turnover like in mom and pop shops. the op had a concern that they might have ntd, and I adressed that problem. I could have just not helped at all with the 'possibility' I'm trying to open peoples eyes about the fact that there are a lot of diseases, and not all are purely water quality related......... while you guys debate endlessly about water quality....I get to the actualy disease/parasite.....that is my style brothera...btw anything else ive done wrong dutch while were at it???

 

Okay so NTD is often broguth in by feeders. its not that 'rare' especially in unclean environements with lots of fish turnover like in mom and pop shops. the op had a concern that they might have ntd, and I adressed that problem. I could have just not helped at all with the 'possibility' I'm trying to open peoples eyes about the fact that there are a lot of diseases, and not all are purely water quality related......... while you guys debate endlessly about water quality....I get to the actualy disease/parasite.....that is my style brothera...btw anything else ive done wrong dutch while were at it???

Hey Whitewolf,

Think you should reread this thread.
There is no debate on waterquality (and definitely by me).
In your first post you're not ID-ing any disease but just calling three completely different disease based on the description the OP is giving and two pics on which not much is to be seen. "It could be Columnaris, it could be Lymphocystis and btw NTD is incurable". Even a vet wouldn't be able to give a proper diagnose, so on what did you base yours.

And that exactly is what I am trying to tell : Don't call all kind of (dreadful) disease at first sight.

NTD is a parasite as you probably know and doesn't have much to do unclean conditions in shops. Though condition of the fish does. If the parasite isn't there it won't appear "suddenly".

There are other parasites / diseases that are seen more often by far (especially in guppies).

I am active on several international forums and NTD (that IS quite rare) is mentioned in almost every thread that shows sick tetras (supprisingly in none cases of other sick species ?????)
I believe hampalong mentioned not having seen a definitely ID of it in about 40-45 years. Then it is quite rare I'd say.

So you didn't do anything wrong but I am only warning not to jump to conclusions at first sight. That's not helping anyone.

Btw : I think you're partly right about waterparameters being so "important".
On the other side high ammonia, nitrites van cause symptoms that are also seen in a lot of disease. To expel (is this English?) those first isn't that bad I think.

Regards Aad

 

Sorry about your fish :'(

 

Your right dutch. I always jump to the worst case scenario lol

However, I am not so much here to help people with one fish two fish blue fish.
I just like to educate people on what could happen what diseases lurk and how to treat them, when to throw in the towel.
I like to talk disease because it is just something I'm interested in.

Maybe I scare people off too much and I will agument my posts (as I have been trying to lately) to be simplier, friendlier, and not throw so much knowledge at people in one post.

 

Maybe it is not even relevant because sometimes I don't even read the whole post of the OP
But in the long run these people are now armed with knowledge of what to watch out for disease wise and to avoid these fish and how to treat common disease properly
Person has knowledge=My job has been accomplished then.

 

Well as a positive update, none of the remaining fish in the 65 gallon are showing any signs of sickness. So I believe whatever it was, it was isolated to the cardinals. And on the plus side, I have room to add more dwarf cichlids.

 

Sounds like it could have been something that they brought with them from the LFS.
Did you get any pics post mortem. ?

 

Just the pictures at the beginning of the thread. They aren't very helpful though.
That's what I'm thinking.

 

I am still sorry that you lost your fish , but glad they didn't suffer. Hugs to you, Alison

 

Thanks Ali. It always sucks to lose pets