Cardinal tetra dead 3.5 hours after purchasing.

As some of you may remember, I posted last week about how I was eyeing a shipment of cardinal tetras that had just come in to my LFS, but I was leery because they were very pale with their red coloration barely showing. I got 7 of them home at 5 o'clock this afternoon and acclimated them by dripping water into their bag with an eyedropper until I had to leave for a meeting for work at 7:30 p.m. When I got home at 9:30 p.m., one of my cardinals was ALREADY dead.

The cardinals are all in my 10 gallon quarantine. Before leaving for work, I noticed that the soon-to-be-dead fish was not swimming with the rest of the group, seemed off-balance and was not eating when I put a small amount of food in. I had not noticed anything wrong with the fish when I was looking at them in the store, and did not realize the one had any issues until after I got them home. I particularly did not expect the fish to die in such a very short amount of time.

Why might this have happened? I have attached a picture of the fish corpse. Many here suspected (as I did) that their muted tones were due to stress...I really hope they aren't all sick. The LFS has a five-day guarantee, but I'm not even sure if I'll be able to stop there tomorrow. All I know is that I really don't want to keep a fish corpse lying around in a bag of water.






My water parameters are:
pH: 7.4-7.6
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrites: 0 ppm
Nitrates: about 20 ppm

 

It's possible it was stress from the move.

If you don't mind my asking, how much water did you drip acclimate with? (i.e. before you added them to your QT, how much new water did you add to their bag water? 2x the amount of old? 3x?)

 

I didn't measure the exact amount of water I put in the bag, but every 5 minutes or so I took the 5ml eyedropper and dripped the entire contents of the dropper into the bag about 3-4 times. I did this until the bag started to get full, then I dumped some of the bag water down the drain and added more tank water to replace what I dumped. This process took about 1.5 hours.

Also, I just woke up and found another Cardinal dead in my tank. I'm at a total loss. They all looked fine last night...back to the LFS I go.

 

Could be Ph-shock.

 

Could be Ph-shock.

I considered that as a possibility, but before purchasing the fish, I asked what pH they kept their tank water - they said about 7.6, the same as mine. The LFS where I purchased the cardinals is in the same town as my parents' house, and when I kept fish while living at home, I remember we had alkaline water.

The only other possibility I can think of is that the fish lived in water with a lower pH before the LFS got them, and they were dying of pH shock before being introduced to my tank - the stress from the move could have been the last straw.

The water my city gets comes from Lake Erie - maybe this link might provide some clues? I don't understand what most of it says, but it might help others here.

 

I am sorry to hear of your losses. It never gets easy

The first time I bought fish from a LFS with a guarantee and lost one, I put it in a zip-loc bag and put it in the freezer. I knew it was going to be a few days before I could get back into town and of course didn't want to just leave it laying around. I called the store, told them about the loss and let them know when I would be back into town.

They only had a 24 hour guarantee but by calling them, they honored it even though It was almost a week before I was able to take the dead one back.

I really think that if you are going to lose one or more it is going to be within the first 24 hours so hopefully the rest of your little guys will make it. If they still have some left from the shipment yours came in, they may be acclimated and you will have better luck with the replacements.

 

Mattgirl, thank you for your condolences. I ended up putting the two fish in a double-bagged Zip-Loc. I was concerned about not having enough time since I have to run to a doctor's appointment immediately after work today. I figured, though, that I'd have enough time to hit the LFS on the way home if I brought the fish, an extra water sample and the receipt with me - so they're in my car.

I hope you're right about most fish losses being within the first 24 hours. The others were alive and kicking when I left the house today, so really hoping they stay that way.

On a more lighthearted note, I can honestly say that I have two bodies in my trunk. Definitely not going to go around work saying that, though.

 

Bump.

As an update: yesterday I ended up going to the LFS and getting store credit for the two dead cardinals. I didn't get any more fish yet.

The strange thing is...the guy tested my water and said all my water parameters were fine except for a very LOW pH of around 5.5. I thought, "that doesn't sound right!" I immediately went home and tested my water with the regular (non-high range) pH kit. The water was as blue as blue can be. I've ALWAYS had very hard, alkaline water. High range pH kit shows between 7.4 and 7.8. What gives?

I woke up this morning to find yet another dead cardinal. What are my options at this point? I work two jobs and don't have time to constantly run to the LFS. Should I just return them all and give up on cardinals, or get replacements?

 

That is very strange indeed. Kinda makes you think that the person at the store did something wrong with the test or there was something in the container that dropped the waters ph between the time you put it in there and the time it was tested. I would have to find out but putting some more in there. Waiting the same length of time and then testing it myself. It might not turn out the same though because if something was in there to cause it, it might have gotten washed out the first time.

Were there any of the Cardinals left at the store from the shipment yours came in on?

 

They had only one cardinal left in the tank from the shipment mine came in. The guy at the LFS said they would be getting more in shortly, though.

 

Sure would be nice to know it he sold most of them or lost them and if sold, how they are doing for the folks that bought them. I know we can never know the answer to that question.

BTW: How are your remaining cardinals doing? Hopefully they will have acclimated to your tank and will live long healthy lives.

 

They seem to be doing okay, but that doesn't mean much since there are only four left and two of the three that died showed absolutely no signs of ill health before they passed.

I'm also concerned that even if they do make it past the first couple of weeks while they're in quarantine now, the shock of moving them to my main tank will kill off the rest. I don't know what to do!

 

I understand where you are coming from but it is very, very possible that you did everything just right and it was just bad luck that you ended up with not so healthy fish.

If the water perimeters are the same in your quarantine tank as the main tank then I don't see you having a problem when it comes time to move them.

You have probably said and I missed it but how often do you do PWC's? You can be getting perfect numbers but still have unhealthy water. I am a firm believer in at least weekly 25% water changes no matter what the tests tell me. (more often if the numbers are off)

 

I have changed the water once a day since getting them in order to avoid any potential ammonia spikes, even though the tank is cycled.

Also, I did several water changes before introducing any of the cardinals to the quarantine in order to bring the nitrate levels down.

 

I really don't think daily water changes are necessary if your tank is cycled. If it were me I would keep an eye on the perimeters and only do a water change if it looks like something is out of whack. ie: nitrates too high. A cycled tank should take care of the small amount of ammonia the fish/fish food is adding so daily PWC's shouldn't be necessary.

 

Your water params seem perfect and your ph is is a good middle value so I would rule out a problem with the tank. Cardinals and neons are very fragile compared to plattys and danios so it's likely these fish were sick when you got them. One thing I recommend make sure the fish has been the dealer's tank for 7-10 days before you buy. Shipping shock and ich seem worse on cardinals, neons and hatchet fish but can happen to any fish. If store won't hold them for you don't take the risk. The best solution is a quarantine tank. Having 1 fish ending up killing your whole tank is scary. I've missed out on fish I wanted [they sold out] by waiting but it also gives you more time to consider if that fish is right for your tank. Good luck, hopefully the rest of your cardinals will be ok.

 

I hope the rest of them will be okay as well. I made a previous thread in the cardinal section of the forum about how the ones in the LFS looked really pale and I was hesitant about buying them, but based on advice I got here and some research I concluded it was most likely just stress from being in the LFS tank and that they would be fine once they got settled in my tank.

They have gotten a little more color, especially when the light is on, but they are still pale compared to photos I see of cardinals. If I lose any more, I will kick myself for not going with my gut, but the only other LFS near me that carries cardinals wouldn't sell theirs to me at all since they kept losing them.

Also, my concern if I bring more fish back...since their testing of my water read a pH of 5.5 for some reason, I don't want them to blame me for the fish dying of pH shock when my pH is actually really close to theirs.

 

No idea why store's test of your ph is diff from yours. Your using the liquid reagents not the test strips, right. The store that didn't sell to you may be the place you want to go, they sound honest. If your quarantine tank has same water prams as your main tank I wouldn't worry about moving they after 2 weeks or so. It's funny how our first impressions are usually the best ones.

 

I am using the API liquid master test kit - the store used the same kit as well, which makes this even more bizarre. I took the water sample in a small Tupperware container, put the container in a plastic bag and kept it in my car all morning and afternoon yesterday, so the only thing I can think of is that something contaminated the sample, as mattgirl said earlier.

The store that wouldn't sell the cardinals to me is great - I went there years ago the first time I kept fish as a kid, and they also sold me my Betta I've had for a few weeks now, who is doing great in his 5.5 gallon.

 

HELP!!! I just got home from work - now my school of cardinals is down to 3 out of my original 7, in just two days. I am beside myself.

I called the LFS and told them what happened...the guy I spoke to on the phone asked if there was anything in my tank that was causing them to die, since he claimed that he hadn't lost any in his tank since the shipment came in. He didn't say it in a mean way, but I still felt about 2" tall since I feel like I AM doing something wrong, but I can't imagine what it could be.

Ammonia is testing 0. No nitrites. There are barely even any nitrates left in the water from the water changes I've done since bringing the fish home.

The guy offered to take my remaining three cardinals off my hands and either give me a refund, or exchange them for something else. I don't know what to do. I'm tempted to just scrap my original stocking plans altogether since they included a GBR, and from the sounds of it, those die on people at the drop of a hat as well and are sensitive to changes in water parameters as well, even though mine are fine. All I know is that I really don't want to go through this again.

I'm leaning toward lowering the temperature (from 80 degrees Fahrenheit) in the 20 gallon where the six cories are now, and opting for a small school of a different fish and a Bolivian Ram instead. I'm just so upset over this. Any advice anyone has for me would be greatly appreciated.

If I do this, how slowly should I lower the temperature on the cories so as not to shock them?

Edited to add two pictures of my water parameters. Second pic is my alleged "low pH".

 

It doesn't sound as if the cardinals dying is your fault. Do they have any sort of refund period for dead fish?

If it's stressing you out this much (and I don't blame you), I'd return them and go with a hardier fish.

 

What species would you recommend? I am totally open, since as I said, I'm rethinking getting a GBR now since many people have said those aren't hardy, either. I know Bolivian rams prefer lower temperatures. Would you advise I lower the temperature on the six cories I have in my main tank and go that way?

Also, they have a five-day return period.

 

What species of cory do you have?

 

I have albino aeneus cories.

 

You have lots of flexibility then. What species do you like that your LFS carries?

 

At the store where I'm going to return the three remaining cardinals? Off the bat, I know I saw harlequin rasboras, rummy nose tetras, glow light tetras lemon tetras, and (I think) zebra danios there. Which of these might be compatible with BRs in terms of temperature?

Most fish profile pages aren't that much helpful as many list similar temperatures for all or nearly all tropical fish species. Of these, I am leaning toward the harlequins.

Definitely no more neons, cardinals or anything that looks like them.

 

I would stay the course if the remaining cardinals survived this long they may make it [assuming your water params are ok]. No need to rush into anything. If the corys are ok the water can't be too bad. I wouldn't add anything to the tank for awhile and just monitor for a week or two. Take the time to study requirements for fish you are considering.

 

The cories are not in the same tank as the cardinals. The cories are in my main 20 gallon tank, while the cardinals are in my 10 gallon quarantine. Of the two, the 10 gallon is a newer setup, but cycled.

 

At the store where I'm going to return the three remaining cardinals? Off the bat, I know I saw harlequin rasboras, rummy nose tetras, glow light tetras lemon tetras, and (I think) zebra danios there. Which of these might be compatible with BRs in terms of temperature?

Most fish profile pages aren't that much helpful as many list similar temperatures for all or nearly all tropical fish species. Of these, I am leaning toward the harlequins.

Definitely no more neons, cardinals or anything that looks like them.

Any of those would work with BRs! You can use Seriously Fish or Fishbase to check the temps of particular species.

 

I ended up getting a school of 7 harlequin rasboras - they have been in my quarantine tank since yesterday afternoon with no issues yet. They are all colorful, alive, hearty and eating well...I took the remaining three cardinals back to the LFS.