Captive Aquatic Animals For Human Entertainment

Crazycoryfishlady

Member
I suppose I'm a hypocrite.
I somewhat think the movie blackfish showed things as worse than they were, and I also believe immense ignorance has to do a lot with the way we keep and treat animals, especially those we capture for our own entertainment. This includes wild caught fish.
Yes I own wild fish.
Yes I said I probably never would.
Yes I'll likely purchase more and never release them.
But unlike some situations I suppose rather than profit I'm more concerned about providing high quality captive products that come from these wild products.
That way we can in a way conserve the species.
I hope to maybe one day take classes in conservation and sustainably and be apart of the force that provides knowledge and reliable sustainable solutions to wild caught fish we want so badly.
People sometimes really don't understand the damage they are possibly doing to the ecosystem when they support the capture and keeping of wild animals.
Especially large ones who need an amount of space we simply aren't willing to give them.
I've seen so many people write it off, "your saltwater fish wasn't taken from a reef! It was probably bred" but what about the fact that still not every saltwater fish is bred but many are available for purchase.
We're still taking fish out of the wild for our entertainment and pleasure.

This is Honey.
She was hunted and picked up for our amusement and has been kept since 2005 her mates caught with her were murdered. They did not suit aquarium life according to a group of fishermen.





When you read, it will tell you she's not the only one. And we know out of thousands, 10s of thousands of captive animals she is not.
So many places are not keeping rehabilitative animals, they are keeping purchased animals who were forced to flip for a quarter from us.
A life of thousands of flips in a pool not bigger than an olympic one**.... That's no life, that's imprisonment, punishment.
**I don't actually know this, but based on what I've seen it seems smaller to me. Maybe deeper, but I don't believe it's the same gallonage.

Conservationists and behaviorists gathered material of honey's neglect. But sadly that wasn't enough for her or many other wild animals.
Just knowing they're being abused isn't enough for them to be rescued...
She was isolated, likely without much interaction with other animals or humans.
Imagine being constantly surrounded by a mass of people... And then suddenly they just stop coming... They disappear and you don't see them again.. except to *maybe* feed you every so often.
They stop caring for your tank, they stop treating you for good behavior, they stop telling you that you did a good job after you were given praise for so long, and trained for so long..
To have a chance at freedom and lose it, is devastating to anyone, but honey doesn't even know what she could have had.
This beautiful center where she could be with others, be treated how she deserves to be treated.
I didn't see any postings saying the zoo was really reopening this june...
I feel for honey as I've felt trapped in my life as well.

Thanks, but no tanks.
Don't go see a dolphin show...
I loved the zoo I saw, yes, and I'm sire not all the animals are being treated the same.. But I still have faith as I saw some of the work they were doing, raising eggs, raising salmon, turtles, California condors, for release.
I believe they are trying to conserve, not capture.

Not all places can say the same.

I hope some day soon honey can get the care and environment she needs.

And I hope that others may rethink some purchases, be it something for their personal home, or a trip they may plan to take.
Thanks but no tanks...
 

goldface

Member
I agree very intelligent marine mammals, like dolphins and orcas shouldn't be in captivity. Fish, on the other hand, are a different story. I'm okay with it. Within reason.
 

Crispii

Member
From reading your post, I agree with you 100%. The goal of obtaining any animal as pets whether it'll be a dog, cat, bird, or fish is to provide as much attention as you can whenever it comes to their needs. This applies to both domestic and wild caught specimens. If we can't provide suitable shelters or food, then what's the whole point of keeping them.

In fact, I do own some wild caught fish in my aquarium. From the multiple research that I have undertake, I tried to provide what they needed. I tried to mimic their surroundings by adding multiple plants and wood hardscape. Besides providing an adequate environment, I tried to mimic the diet that these fish ate in the wild as well.
 

david1978

Member
I'm going to leave the dolphin thing out since its such a controversial topic. The fish we buy that are wild caught I won't. In some places that the fish are caught the small communities rely on the aquarium trade as most of their income so they are generally careful to manage not to over fish or their income would disappear. Some towns have disappeared since we figured out how to captive breed certain fish. Now the commercial capture in places like reefs again employees lots of people and though harder to manage if its done responsibly like most places do with catch spot checks and permits isn't that bad of a thing.
 

Gypsy13

Member
I feel as bad for honey as I do Tilikum. I’ll stop there.
 
  • Thread Starter

Crazycoryfishlady

Member
Gypsy13 said:
I feel as bad for honey as I do Tilikum. I’ll stop there.
Oh I do too, I suppose I shouldn't have worded it exactly the way I did.
I just feel like the whole show was monsterized.
I don't believe people who used to fish wild animals or show them had any intent to mentally harm the animal while doing so.
I think for the most part even though we know they are highly intelligent, we still consider them dumb animals, and I think especially when sea world was more popular since we didn't know as much as we do now.
Tilikum was painted as a monster as was anyone who worked with him, and I don't think that's a fair judgement.
They're all just misunderstood and don't understand each other well.
Sometimes it's hard to heed unknown warnings until it's too late.
I don't mean to sound like I'm.undermining his abuse as not bad. I don't agree with anything that happened or happens if quality of life is depleted or lives were at risk or taken.
Same way I don't agree with how we farm our animals, including salmon, but that's sort of another topic.

I'm looking forward to a new documentary called Artifishal, it documents how we are affecting our salmon with unneeded dams, (not always as useful as they claimed they'd be) the way we are raising them toxicly in horrid conditions and mass numbers.
We could very well push wild salmon to extinction.


With some of the fish I don't agree with being taken from waters, most would be the sharks, gobies, lion fish, honestly any fairly dangerous fish, ropefish as much as I love and tried to keep them myself.
Of course the pacu and piranha.
Things that don't belong in our tiny glass boxes.
To me it's like trying to keep a sheephead or dolphin.
No one should own a shark that will get 3-4 feet unless they are equipped with a multI hundred gallon tank.
But again sort of another topic for another day delving into our own ethics.
So many of us are ignorant to our purchases, and just like listening to fish store employees, we often trust the word of those who don't know much about animals and likely just toss it a bowl of food and claI'm they're an expert.

It makes me sad and laugh when the mothers say "look the lions are saying hi!" As they stressfully pace back and forth in their cages, lunging at walls and windows when the mother dangles her child at the animal.
Sad because the mother is so unknowledgable and uncaring about the state of this lion, laughing, because she thinks it's cute the lion wants a snack and is saying "hi" because it's happy.
How could someone think that a lion kept in a place like that is happy to see us?
This lion is not Christian. They were not raised with love and care, they were likely raised by their parents.
That's like saying the growling grizzly just wants a hug and some honey.

We know so little and choose not to learn... Which is why I always try to educate people the best I can.
Sometimes what I say gets a little jumbled and doesn't make the best of sense, and sometimes I'm not the most knowledgable, but at least I'm trying. I'm making an effort to change my knowledge and other's, so we don't continue to make the mistakes of our past and continue to harm what little life is left on our every dying planet.


Sort of curious why some people don't want to share their opinions on honey.
Yes she's controversial, but if you're saying you refuse to state your opinion, it sometimes seems like you're in disagreement.
That you believe she is well taken care of by being fed and isolated with no shade, that her and the penguins are likely in good health despite the evidence.

That may not be your opinion (not driected at gypsy or anyone else specifically) but that's sort of how it appears to me in a sense.
That by withholding your possible sympathy, it might mean you aren't sympathetic.
Though I'm sure we all feel at least a bit bad that she no longer socializes or gets adequate swimming waters.
 

david1978

Member
Honestly the honey thing I don't know enough on the subject to really have an opinion.
 
  • Thread Starter

Crazycoryfishlady

Member
david1978 said:
Honestly the honey thing I don't know enough on the subject to really have an opinion.
I suppose that makes more sense.
I don't know a whole lot either, and neither do any of the companies trying to help her really. If no one gives a statement you can't really tell.
Sort of reminds me of the neglected horse post I saw on here a while ago.
While we couldn't ask about the care of the animal, it was somewhat evident that the care wasn't top notch as it should be.
I don't know if you agree that dolphins should probably be socialized, but if so, you might agree it can be problematic if they aren't.
While reading the posts I went and searched up some of the videos.
Not all of them are very long or the most informative, but some of them somewhat state how irregular she had been acting due to her situation.
Might watch them maybe if you want, as much as it pains me, I like to learn the most I can about her situation.
I still hope it changes for the better and that hopefully the zoo may really open again and her care improves.
 

coralbandit

Member
I usually try not to broadcast my great disappointment with the tropical fish industry and how they are really business over honesty , passion or compassion ...
I will say at the Aquatic Expo in the Meadowlands last fall no matter how poor I felt an individual vendor was nothing beat the tractor trailer travelling shark show as an all time low for mankind !
Especially people who 'appreciate tropical fish ' ?? I mean WT...…?????
Well less acceptable then that to me was the number of sheep who gathered to watch it .
Not afraid to say boo his to all who watched it and you are indeed part of the problem …
I am sure those Sharks live a good life in 1/2 a tractor trailer !
I felt it pretty disgusting and not even close to appropriate for such an event ,but again was proven wrong in one respect[people did want to see them] and right in another [people behave badly when in crowds ]..
I still don't see how it even fit the event and that I was /am the only one left with that impression …
They say the Expo is coming back again and I hope to go ,but hope not to see that again …
If it is there I leave you this thought to ponder ;
Same sharks a year later or did they 'need' new ones .
 
  • Thread Starter

Crazycoryfishlady

Member
coralbandit said:
I usually try not to broadcast my great disappointment with the tropical fish industry and how they are really business over honesty , passion or compassion ...
I will say at the Aquatic Expo in the Meadowlands last fall no matter how poor I felt an individual vendor was nothing beat the tractor trailer travelling shark show as an all time low for mankind !
Especially people who 'appreciate tropical fish ' ?? I mean WT...…?????
Well less acceptable then that to me was the number of sheep who gathered to watch it .
Not afraid to say boo his to all who watched it and you are indeed part of the problem …
I am sure those Sharks live a good life in 1/2 a tractor trailer !
I felt it pretty disgusting and not even close to appropriate for such an event ,but again was proven wrong in one respect[people did want to see them] and right in another [people behave badly when in crowds ]..
I still don't see how it even fit the event and that I was /am the only one left with that impression …
They say the Expo is coming back again and I hope to go ,but hope not to see that again …
If it is there I leave you this thought to ponder ;
Same sharks a year later or did they 'need' new ones .
Oh boy! Travelling tractor trailer! Now that sounds exactly like the place I want to live the rest of my life! Sloshing around ya know?
Generally I try to keep opinions to myself too, and focus mostly on unbiased information, since being opinionated has gotten us all in trouble before
I just sort of felt a new sadness wave over me when I found out she wasn't going to be handed over to the sanctuary.
I debated making the post until I saw that.
I know shouting about it won't change it still, but I suppose I still feel like I'm helping a little bit by sharing her story.
Letting people know how she and so many others are being held.
Like that trailer! Lol
What a name!
As if that wasn't enough to make you weary of what they're doing...
Did the sharks do tricks? Or just look pretty for the camera and smile?

Curious what kind they were too.
I saw a 3 foot, maybe 3.5 foot iridescent shark at a to z aquatics in oregon.
That bad boy is massive! Even they don't really have the correct space to house him.
I think they had like 12 or more sponge filters in their sump.
Definitely not likely someone will buy it, let alone how do you transport it?
Oh wait! A travelling tractor trailor!
I'd like to give it a 750g pond like I want for my dragon goby.
I hope to keep him forever no matter how much of a pain keeping his pond might be.
I want him to grow as big as he possibly can, he was taken from the wild to be sold for 5 bucks. He deserves better than to be thrown out or forgotten.

I'd hope they don't have to do "replacements" each year...
 

david1978

Member
The trailer itself sounds so cool. Sorry its the mechanic in me. What their doing with it not so much. I'm one of those that goes to an amusement park and tries to figure out how the rides work vs actually riding them.
 

coralbandit

Member
NO NO not irredescent shark tank ...
This was the only picture I could find so far .
Thinking there was like 3-4 sharks in the tank !

Again I often hold my opinion but that guy in the hat probably really knows about sharks ,at least he looks it !
3 out of 4 heads in pic are not kids ...For shame ...Even under an 'educational disguise' ..
 

Geoff

Member
coralbandit said:
NO NO not irredescent shark tank ...
This was the only picture I could find so far .
Thinking there was like 3-4 sharks in the tank !

Again I often hold my opinion but that guy in the hat probably really knows about sharks ,at least he looks it !
3 out of 4 heads in pic are not kids ...For shame ...Even under an 'educational disguise' ..
That captured moment looks like the shark is crying out and struggling to get away from the snorkeler. Poor thing. There is a sign that says Nurse Shark, so I guess that’s what it is? Definitely not a small fish.
 

Gypsy13

Member
The reason I stopped with Tilikum was because I’m very extremely passionate about how these animals are captured. And this isn’t the place for my ranting on Taiji, Faroe Islands, Yulin, etc. I agree with you crazycoryfishlady. I’ve just got to not express my opinions here. Twitter is a whole different thing!
 
  • Moderator

smee82

Moderator
Member
Ill probably cop flack for this but so be it.

I don't get thread or post like this. Your indignant that other people keep animals in cages/tanks or people going to see animals in captivity but your doing exactly the same thing.

The shark in the trailer won't spent its whole life there and it probably cost the guy a pretty penny to keep it going and he doubtfuly makes much profit from it. Its no different from a hobbyist taking fish to a aquarium show except most people would think twice about it.

I love going to the local zoo and the aquarium and won't stop going. No there not perfect but theyre sure as heck better then nothing.
 
  • Thread Starter

Crazycoryfishlady

Member
smee82 said:
Ill probably cop flack for this but so be it.

I don't get thread or post like this. Your indignant that other people keep animals in cages/tanks or people going to see animals in captivity but your doing exactly the same thing.

The shark in the trailer won't spent its whole life there and it probably cost the guy a pretty penny to keep it going and he doubtfuly makes much profit from it. Its no different from a hobbyist taking fish to a aquarium show except most people would think twice about it.

I love going to the local zoo and the aquarium and won't stop going. No there not perfect but theyre sure as heck better then nothing.
I did state from the start that I am a hypocrit yes, but honey wasn't caught with her health or life in mind.
For the most part I'd say the fish we legally export and import for the trade probably have some sort of care taken in mind as long as they aren't overfished.
As other members said, most animals we regularly trade, we have regulations for.
Unfortunately for animals like lions, animals part of neglect situations zoos may possibly have rescued some from, animals like certain birds and lizards aren't as highly regulated or accounted for.
There have been numerous reports of people catching wild birds, taping them up and to the sides of their bodies and trying to smuggle them into the country.
And this is better than nothing? Better than leaving the animal in a natural habitat?
You're saying giving a tiger a space no larger than an apartment versus doing everything you can to replicate the environment of a living creature you own, is better than nothing?
The fact that penguins and other arctic creatues such as polar bears who have been captured due to the fact their numbers are dwindling and we ask why, only to say it's not our fault, they would have been treated so poorly eventually if we didn't exist.
But would they really? Would they really be forced to pace around all day trying to get out?
At least my fish aren't trying to escape their homes due to stres...
I may not be able to read their minds, but their body language from all we know says they're comfortable, but that orca is not.
I do find an extreme difference between some fisherman catching a pleco, and selling it for conservation as well as a little profit for him since he likely has very little other available jobs.
Meanwhile the people hunting and killing dolphins and orcas have other means for food and entertainment.
They likely have dogs in any country that they are going hunting for these large animals.
Are dogs and small fish not enough? Is playing their capture not good enough? You also have to neglect them too?
I also stated I recently went to a zoo, again reiterating that I am somewhat of a hypocrit.
But some of their animals were proven conservation and rescue missions.
They weren't letting people go on safarI and purchasing wild dogs and giraffes from people.
They were doing their best to try to relocate animals to a better envirnoment, which is also why their large polar animals are away for the summer, rather than being exposed to weather far higher than they should be. Penguins burn just like humans do, except I'd say maybe worse.
To keep them out on a pretend ice flat with little water (which is hot mind you) is not "better than nothing"
No I'm not the happiest that some of my fish are wildcaught, but I can't uncatch them or stop the fish hobby.
But what I can do is adovacte for the correct care and the try to give the information we need to know before we try to own these animals.
If you go to any zoo and see their polar exhibit or certain reptile or bird exhibits, maybe even their fish exhibits.
You'll find cramped overcrowded conditions, insuffcient hides from not only aggression whether serious or not, but from any weather unless it's some creature in a glass box.
Often zoo who don't have large aquarium centers don't have adequate swimming room for their fish.
A lungfish shouldn't be kept in a 15 gallon tank, that thing needs a 55 at least, it's large and needs to be allowed to move around without tapping it's nose into the glass.
A bird shouldn't be kept in a cage majority of it's life, and as everyone has discussed before, no we shouldnt really keep fish at all, be it captive bred or wild caught.
The entire fish hobby is one of an ethics problem.
We're claiming we own something, which has never been true.
Humans seem to think we can purchase anything. And we literally can.
People buy their own personal zoos all the time, but the often have to rid of it due to the utter incapability to care for these animals.
I don't think it's better than nothing to "forget" about your animals.
It might be better than nothing to make.conservation efforts for california condors, a species who was once thought to have no wild numbers, but to trap a giraffe just because it looks pretty is no more ethical than killing it for fun, just because it looks pretty.
Now maybe if it was put to some use somehow, like education without being confined.
Giraffes are similar to bettas in the zoo world.
They run miles every day, and enjoy running too, it's good for their joints.
In zoos, they act a lot like a wild fish in a small tank, they'll mostly stay in one spot just waiting for food, watching their surroundings.
They may play every so often, but majority of zoo animals don't show signs of being totally relaxed let alone "happy" which is why we have a lot of trouble breeding captive animals.
The majority of my post was meant to showcase honey, and how she was treated.
She was abandoned and not cared for, left alone to tend to herself. A highly intelligent social animal just disreagrded like she was nothing but a zoo stuffed toy.
This is not better than nothing.
I never said that it's heinous to keep anything.
The point was that it's not right to claI'm you understand an animal, but refuse to provide it proper care.
If they are dolpin experts they know she cannot be left alone, if they are such qualified behaviorists, then like wildlife organizations aimed to help neglected animals, then too, her owners should be able to see the distress in her.
To see the pain in an animal and to continue to neglect it after being told by numerous people amd offcials what you're doing is wrong and harmful, is not right.
I am pretty sure you wouldn't agree that keeping a 6in comet goldfish in a 5.5 gallon tank is okay.
Sure that's a sort of extreme example, but it's not unlike some of the confinement centers zoo animals are sometimes kept it.
Just as tilikum was.
You know those little cages they put them innwhen they aren't showing? The ones they can barely turn around in? Sounds like a great place to spend a few days between your forced trick pony show.
It's like being trapped in one of those new hotel pods they're making.
They're only big enough for you to sit up, not stand.
All you can do is lay in bed all day, which is so bad for your body.
I'm not trying to give you ---t for your comment, but that last line just got me I suppose.
It is not better than nothing...
Better would be doing nothing.
Not killing the dolphins when you have sustainable food sources, not taking fins off sharks and releasing them into the ocean, not taking a polar bear cub just because you think it will do better living in california than it would be fighting the odds in its natural envirnment.
Better than nothing would be providing adequate space to the animals you are trying to house.
You should not be using minimal.sizes.
Just as we have rules for how big a tank we'll put oscars and common plecos in, zoo, among other agencies need a higher quality of life and care for their animals.
Yes it's expensive, but that's the price you pay when you collect these creatures and use them to entertain rather than to teach.
I'm not writing off zoos altogether, and the capture of wild.animals as I said will.never cease.
But we shoul at least still be advocating for adequate care.
It's not just not our problem.
What we do affects the eco system.even if we think just one won't harm anything.
It always makes a slight change.
Just like when you have too few aggressive fish and they hurt each other.

I'm.not saying don't support your local zoo, but maybe think a bit more about the care they provide.
Rather than focusing on the pretty animals, learn about how they may be helping conserve species, or ask if it's possible for them to do something like that.
I found a zoo official who I talked to about the fish they keep, while I might not seem like I know much because I look like a kid, she genuinely seemed to appreciate the advice I had for her about some of the lizards, insects and fish.
Some of them were not adequately housed, and others were, or others were in oversized housing.
I provided a few solutions and a bit of the knowledge that I had learned, and in some places she agreed.
While she could have just been shooting the sky, she told me she would try to speak to others about my concerns and see if some rehousing could be done. It was scary and seemed like it might not help, but there's no harm in trying.
But I do believe there is harm in not trying.
Some zoos will make efforts to fix any problems that goers see, others, sometimes all they want is for you to come back so they get another deposit.
It's so much like any other situation, especially like going to the fish store, you will sometimes see overcrowded fish in tanks too small, and we only find this acceptable because it's temporary.
While the shark might not live his whole life in a travelling tractor trailer, it's not likely that the large animals will be moved to a larger enclosure or even released back into the wild.
Now if those tanks were permanent homes in the fish store, everyone would be screaming for them to shut down.
We obviously know it's not okay to keep that many goldfish in one tank.
This makes us all hypocrits in this sense.
While you say you don't get this post, I'm fairly certain there are some things you'll see as unethical in our hobby, and the same thing goes for the zoo animals.
I don't think you'd think it would be better than nothing to house an oscar in a 29 gallon for most of it's life. Especially since we know some of the damage something like that can cause...

I'm sorry for this super long post and how a lot of it is directed towards you, it's not only towards you, some of it is quite general.
It is relevant to anyone who reads this and may think the same thing you did, "how can you advocate for the capture of animals being cruel when you have captured animals" because like all humans I'll justify my actions the same way all the zoos do.
I'm not trying to say that you're wrong, but I also suppose in a sense I am, because I just can't sit back and think "it's not my job or place, not my problem, and at least it's better than nothing"
I have an immense passion for the care of animals, that's why I have 9 tanks, 6 cats, and 8 dogs at another house who I all help care for.
I do my best to provide the best care I can, and when I slack I beat myself up for it.
I took on these responsibilities and I don't get to just slack because I don't want to do it anymore.
I don't believe my actions can be held on the same slate as a zoos.
Especially not the one who kept honey.
Those hunts are vicious, and unnessacery, nothing would definitely be better than killing honeys pod and putting her in a swimming pool.
Anyway I really need to end this post... I told aje I could go on forever about any topic...
And I have. I apologize, this is really too long and too much for a post.
But I don't really think it's worth removing anything. I know I repeated myself a few times, but I feel I need to try to drive the point home since yes I agree my point is likely a bit skewed.
All of it is wrong, but it's all different levels of wrong based on our ethics and morals we've made up.
Some wrongs are definitely worse than others, and I believe if you know better, there's generally not much excuse as to why you can't do things correctly or in the best possible way.
 
  • Moderator

smee82

Moderator
Member
Crazycoryfishlady said:
I did state from the start that I am a hypocrit yes, but honey wasn't caught with her health or life in mind.
For the most part I'd say the fish we legally export and import for the trade probably have some sort of care taken in mind as long as they aren't overfished.
As other members said, most animals we regularly trade, we have regulations for.
Unfortunately for animals like lions, animals part of neglect situations zoos may possibly have rescued some from, animals like certain birds and lizards aren't as highly regulated or accounted for.
There have been numerous reports of people catching wild birds, taping them up and to the sides of their bodies and trying to smuggle them into the country.
And this is better than nothing? Better than leaving the animal in a natural habitat?
You're saying giving a tiger a space no larger than an apartment versus doing everything you can to replicate the environment of a living creature you own, is better than nothing?
The fact that penguins and other arctic creatues such as polar bears who have been captured due to the fact their numbers are dwindling and we ask why, only to say it's not our fault, they would have been treated so poorly eventually if we didn't exist.
But would they really? Would they really be forced to pace around all day trying to get out?
At least my fish aren't trying to escape their homes due to stres...
I may not be able to read their minds, but their body language from all we know says they're comfortable, but that orca is not.
I do find an extreme difference between some fisherman catching a pleco, and selling it for conservation as well as a little profit for him since he likely has very little other available jobs.
Meanwhile the people hunting and killing dolphins and orcas have other means for food and entertainment.
They likely have dogs in any country that they are going hunting for these large animals.
Are dogs and small fish not enough? Is playing their capture not good enough? You also have to neglect them too?
I also stated I recently went to a zoo, again reiterating that I am somewhat of a hypocrit.
But some of their animals were proven conservation and rescue missions.
They weren't letting people go on safarI and purchasing wild dogs and giraffes from people.
They were doing their best to try to relocate animals to a better envirnoment, which is also why their large polar animals are away for the summer, rather than being exposed to weather far higher than they should be. Penguins burn just like humans do, except I'd say maybe worse.
To keep them out on a pretend ice flat with little water (which is hot mind you) is not "better than nothing"
No I'm not the happiest that some of my fish are wildcaught, but I can't uncatch them or stop the fish hobby.
But what I can do is adovacte for the correct care and the try to give the information we need to know before we try to own these animals.
If you go to any zoo and see their polar exhibit or certain reptile or bird exhibits, maybe even their fish exhibits.
You'll find cramped overcrowded conditions, insuffcient hides from not only aggression whether serious or not, but from any weather unless it's some creature in a glass box.
Often zoo who don't have large aquarium centers don't have adequate swimming room for their fish.
A lungfish shouldn't be kept in a 15 gallon tank, that thing needs a 55 at least, it's large and needs to be allowed to move around without tapping it's nose into the glass.
A bird shouldn't be kept in a cage majority of it's life, and as everyone has discussed before, no we shouldnt really keep fish at all, be it captive bred or wild caught.
The entire fish hobby is one of an ethics problem.
We're claiming we own something, which has never been true.
Humans seem to think we can purchase anything. And we literally can.
People buy their own personal zoos all the time, but the often have to rid of it due to the utter incapability to care for these animals.
I don't think it's better than nothing to "forget" about your animals.
It might be better than nothing to make.conservation efforts for california condors, a species who was once thought to have no wild numbers, but to trap a giraffe just because it looks pretty is no more ethical than killing it for fun, just because it looks pretty.
Now maybe if it was put to some use somehow, like education without being confined.
Giraffes are similar to bettas in the zoo world.
They run miles every day, and enjoy running too, it's good for their joints.
In zoos, they act a lot like a wild fish in a small tank, they'll mostly stay in one spot just waiting for food, watching their surroundings.
They may play every so often, but majority of zoo animals don't show signs of being totally relaxed let alone "happy" which is why we have a lot of trouble breeding captive animals.
The majority of my post was meant to showcase honey, and how she was treated.
She was abandoned and not cared for, left alone to tend to herself. A highly intelligent social animal just disreagrded like she was nothing but a zoo stuffed toy.
This is not better than nothing.
I never said that it's heinous to keep anything.
The point was that it's not right to claI'm you understand an animal, but refuse to provide it proper care.
If they are dolpin experts they know she cannot be left alone, if they are such qualified behaviorists, then like wildlife organizations aimed to help neglected animals, then too, her owners should be able to see the distress in her.
To see the pain in an animal and to continue to neglect it after being told by numerous people amd offcials what you're doing is wrong and harmful, is not right.
I am pretty sure you wouldn't agree that keeping a 6in comet goldfish in a 5.5 gallon tank is okay.
Sure that's a sort of extreme example, but it's not unlike some of the confinement centers zoo animals are sometimes kept it.
Just as tilikum was.
You know those little cages they put them innwhen they aren't showing? The ones they can barely turn around in? Sounds like a great place to spend a few days between your forced trick pony show.
It's like being trapped in one of those new hotel pods they're making.
They're only big enough for you to sit up, not stand.
All you can do is lay in bed all day, which is so bad for your body.
I'm not trying to give you ---t for your comment, but that last line just got me I suppose.
It is not better than nothing...
Better would be doing nothing.
Not killing the dolphins when you have sustainable food sources, not taking fins off sharks and releasing them into the ocean, not taking a polar bear cub just because you think it will do better living in california than it would be fighting the odds in its natural envirnment.
Better than nothing would be providing adequate space to the animals you are trying to house.
You should not be using minimal.sizes.
Just as we have rules for how big a tank we'll put oscars and common plecos in, zoo, among other agencies need a higher quality of life and care for their animals.
Yes it's expensive, but that's the price you pay when you collect these creatures and use them to entertain rather than to teach.
I'm not writing off zoos altogether, and the capture of wild.animals as I said will.never cease.
But we shoul at least still be advocating for adequate care.
It's not just not our problem.
What we do affects the eco system.even if we think just one won't harm anything.
It always makes a slight change.
Just like when you have too few aggressive fish and they hurt each other.

I'm.not saying don't support your local zoo, but maybe think a bit more about the care they provide.
Rather than focusing on the pretty animals, learn about how they may be helping conserve species, or ask if it's possible for them to do something like that.
I found a zoo official who I talked to about the fish they keep, while I might not seem like I know much because I look like a kid, she genuinely seemed to appreciate the advice I had for her about some of the lizards, insects and fish.
Some of them were not adequately housed, and others were, or others were in oversized housing.
I provided a few solutions and a bit of the knowledge that I had learned, and in some places she agreed.
While she could have just been shooting the sky, she told me she would try to speak to others about my concerns and see if some rehousing could be done. It was scary and seemed like it might not help, but there's no harm in trying.
But I do believe there is harm in not trying.
Some zoos will make efforts to fix any problems that goers see, others, sometimes all they want is for you to come back so they get another deposit.
It's so much like any other situation, especially like going to the fish store, you will sometimes see overcrowded fish in tanks too small, and we only find this acceptable because it's temporary.
While the shark might not live his whole life in a travelling tractor trailer, it's not likely that the large animals will be moved to a larger enclosure or even released back into the wild.
Now if those tanks were permanent homes in the fish store, everyone would be screaming for them to shut down.
We obviously know it's not okay to keep that many goldfish in one tank.
This makes us all hypocrits in this sense.
While you say you don't get this post, I'm fairly certain there are some things you'll see as unethical in our hobby, and the same thing goes for the zoo animals.
I don't think you'd think it would be better than nothing to house an oscar in a 29 gallon for most of it's life. Especially since we know some of the damage something like that can cause...

I'm sorry for this super long post and how a lot of it is directed towards you, it's not only towards you, some of it is quite general.
It is relevant to anyone who reads this and may think the same thing you did, "how can you advocate for the capture of animals being cruel when you have captured animals" because like all humans I'll justify my actions the same way all the zoos do.
I'm not trying to say that you're wrong, but I also suppose in a sense I am, because I just can't sit back and think "it's not my job or place, not my problem, and at least it's better than nothing"
I have an immense passion for the care of animals, that's why I have 9 tanks, 6 cats, and 8 dogs at another house who I all help care for.
I do my best to provide the best care I can, and when I slack I beat myself up for it.
I took on these responsibilities and I don't get to just slack because I don't want to do it anymore.
I don't believe my actions can be held on the same slate as a zoos.
Especially not the one who kept honey.
Those hunts are vicious, and unnessacery, nothing would definitely be better than killing honeys pod and putting her in a swimming pool.
Anyway I really need to end this post... I told aje I could go on forever about any topic...
And I have. I apologize, this is really too long and too much for a post.
But I don't really think it's worth removing anything. I know I repeated myself a few times, but I feel I need to try to drive the point home since yes I agree my point is likely a bit skewed.
All of it is wrong, but it's all different levels of wrong based on our ethics and morals we've made up.
Some wrongs are definitely worse than others, and I believe if you know better, there's generally not much excuse as to why you can't do things correctly or in the best possible way.
I said they're not perfect and your going on a tangent about ethics because I said having a zoo is better then having nothing. No where did I say anything about hunting dolphins, sharks or any other animals.

I have absolutely no ethical qualms about how I keep fish and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Most zoos do a lot more good then harm. Take pandas for example with breeding programs they would probably be extinct. Endlers are probably already extinct in the wild now and we only have them still because of hobbyists.
 

david1978

Member
 
  • Thread Starter

Crazycoryfishlady

Member
smee82 said:
I said they're not perfect and your going on a tangent about ethics because I said having a zoo is better then having nothing. No where did I say anything about hunting dolphins, sharks or any other animals.

I have absolutely no ethical qualms about how I keep fish and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Most zoos do a lot more good then harm. Take pandas for example with breeding programs they would probably be extinct. Endlers are probably already extinct in the wild now and we only have them still because of hobbyists.
I went on a tangent because you said you don't understand my viewpoint, you don't understand why I have a problem with the hunting and keeping of dolphins in inadequate conditions. So I explained, you claimed I was indignant about people caging animals as a general statement, but that's not it.
I'm against inadequate care, not conservation programs.
And these dolphins are being hunted and housed inadequately.
In a sense it seemed like you were being negative about me having wild caught fish, almost comparing it to the state of honey as no different.
If I were against zoos and their conservation programs I would not have purchased items from the gift shop, nor would I have donated to the california condors, animals who went extinct in the wild but lived on due to their program among a few others.
Yes I know axolotls are endangered too, many species we keep likely no longer live in the wild due to collection.
To have no ethic qualms with fish you keep, knowing you're part of the support for these loss of species.
We all are, that's a fact of keeping.
We're all unethically collecting and keeping wild and "domestic" animals.
We are not above ethics because our morals say so, we're just as unethical as those hunting these animals, since we are hunting them as well. Just not killing them for fun.
Some zoos help yes, and a lot of them do a lot of good, but just one or two conservation programs per say 4 zoos is not enough.
Not all of these zoos have these programs and the butt of the post was on honey.

I suppose it's time to withdraw from commenting on your opinions as you seemingly see no problem with the way honey is being treated, the subject of this post.
It's not just about all zoos.
This is about how poorly we are allowing animals to be treated while turning a blind eye, because it's not our problem.
But it really is.
We are just as responsible as the people not caring for her.
There is still more we can do for honey.
But arguing about ethics and endlers isn't going to do it.
I'm trying to educate others on the state of some of the worlds animals, and imo, it's not right to try to justify a few animals mistreatment with the good treatment of others.
 

david1978

Member
I think the thing is in your original post you tried to make too many references. Both on the aquarium trade and specifically dolphin keeping. Diferent countries have different laws on both. Now in the us there are many laws for keeping dolphins. Specific minimum tank size. Minimum care requirements and others. Big fines and even imprisonment can cone if these laws are not followed. Now honey is in Japan so our laws don't apply. So if you wanted to make it about honey you should of included how our laws on keeping them differ from theirs as a first step then how they are breaking their laws. This leaves out all opinions and states facts. I have found a few articles but non that give specific actual laws they are violating. Few even have pics. Lots of hearsay. So who knows the whole story?
 

JessicaSwanlake

Member
I would like to add that there is a massive, scientifically irrefutable difference between keeping something like a fish or invertebrate in a decent sized tank with suitable tank mates than there is in keeping a social, marine mammal in a small tank alone.
Everyone here would balk at the idea of keeping an Oscar in a 30 gallon tank, but that is what it is like to keep a dolphin in something barely larger than an Olympic swimming pool. The difference here is that unlike fish which only have limbic systems and no emotions as humans understand them (basically their emotion-like reactions are a combination of amygdalic responses and "memories"), dolphins have extensive cerebral cortexes and social relationships. They have an in-depth understanding of themselves as beings and their environment (They are a 4.2 on the EQ scale, for reference humans are a 7.0 and chimps are only about a 2.3 with nearly all other mammals between 0-1.5, so if you think your dog or cat has human-like responses dolphins are on like 10 other levels.) Given their biology and emotional understanding they should never, ever be kept alone and as a group shouldn't be kept in anything other than what could be described as a small-medium sized lake.
Some zoos and public aquariums come close to giving mammals (marine and otherwise) what is needed for normal emotional and physical development, but those are the rare exception, not the rule.
 

david1978

Member
On a side note. There have been no dolphins wild caught for the us aquariums or zoos thanks to captive breeding.
 
  • Thread Starter

Crazycoryfishlady

Member
david1978 said:
On a side note. There have been no dolphins wild caught for the us aquariums or zoos thanks to captive breeding.
That's something good to hear. I can also somewhat agree I likely touched too many topics in the first post.
The post was mainly meant to be about honey and her mates kept with her, and how poor some companies treat their "property"
I suppose it would have been helpful to mention laws more so than everything else.
I had mostly only written this post because of how bad I felt for her, that she wasn't getting a chance, so I wanted to spread her story and how everything isn't as pretty as it looks, or as harmless as jumping through a hoop.
And that she isn't the only one.
I have seen my fair share of unhappy zoo animals.
We have a company in my city called cat tails, and I loved going there as a kid.
But when big cats are essentially kept in dog cages with a big pond and a giant ball, I know there's something else going on than just caring for these animals.
They were pacing back an forth, a huge sign of stress.
They ignored the trainers and people walking past them, or even seeminly premeditated peeing on the trainers as a joke.
The crowd thought it was hilarious, eventually I realized it was extreme stress.
I'm very glad we have minimum build for keeping some animals, but even at times I still believe that minimum might not be enough, and just like "minimum for goldfish is 40-60 gallons" maybe they should still be kept in something double the size of that.
I've always been told I was going to become a marine biologist, but hopefully I can just become an aquatic conservationist.
There is a man I watch on youtube who catches wild fish such as betta, and he breeds them for conservation, and releases the grown fry into sustainable habitats as their wild ones are slowly being destroyed by farming.
This is omething I hope to take part in, but rather than always capturing I hope that we can save more species who aren't doing well like the condor and axolotl.
It honestly shocked me when I first researched axolotls.
I couldn't believe they were being sold like candy even though we've practically ruined their chances of living outside of a tank now.
There were also studied where if give (iodine I believe?) The axolotls morphed into terrestrial salamanders, but they did not live long and eventually died.
It's a shame we do this to creatures.
I would much rather be able to find a wild axolotl than absolutely none at all.
Luckily the US also has more hunting standards for animals like this, though of course poaching still sometimes happens.

I don't want anyone to feel like I'll get upset if their opinion doesn't match mine. I know I brought a lot of opinions in, but it's meant to be more fact driven than "I feel" but a lot of the ways we do things are only based on how we feel.
I want this to be an active discussion amd learning post, not one of possible hostility or arguements.

I tend to get quite off track early in the morning, and writing from 4am to 5 about dolphins made me lose my message a bit.
 

david1978

Member
And it sounds like the park with honey has been bought and is scheduled to reopen next month.
 
  • Thread Starter

Crazycoryfishlady

Member
david1978 said:
And it sounds like the park with honey has been bought and is scheduled to reopen next month.
I included that in my original post, but after they've been contacted about it, there's not much news.
They're supposed to open in about 20 days or so, and that was based on an update from mid april.
I'm not sure I believe they will reopen, mostly because they've been so silent about it (possibly to stop from looking bad too...) But I'll be keeping tabs. I only recently found out about the story but read almost every post and watched the videos.
I'm hoping she will get a larger pen and maybe tank mates.
And hopefully be part of a show again (even though I don't want her to be) but it's better to have her preform than sit in isolation.
The 46 penguins and all the reptiles and fish were also sold in the zoo deal.
This was sort of the original owners method of fixing their lack of care.
Rather than donate the animals to conservationists they just sold them in hopes they'll be put back to work.
That's why I made the post anyway. Had she still been waiting for hope I lilely wouldn't have, but it really made me mad that she was sold instead of taken care of.
All we can hope is the new onwer knows better.
 

david1978

Member
I must of missed that. One other thing you have to remember is Japan culture. They still hunt dolphins and whales. So I dought they have many laws or regulations for their care in captivity.
 

david1978

Member
I have been doing some research here and there all day. What I came up with so far. Dolphins and whales are classified as fish in Japan. Dolphines specifically are classed as a pest fish since they eat fish meant for consumption. So basically they have the same protection of something like cod. Their actually caught in the town that honey is in. Most that are captured go to china the rest become food. Sadly I don't think they broke one law in her care since there really isn't any. A few guide lines but even those aren't much. No tank sizes mentioned or anything like that. So basically if their kept wet and fed they are with in guide lines.
 

Gypsy13

Member
david1978 said:
On a side note. There have been no dolphins wild caught for the us aquariums or zoos thanks to captive breeding.
Unfortunately, David, this is not true. Sea World still sends trainers/buyers to TaijI to pick out baby dolphins. They’re sent to Canada. Then they’re registered into the “breeding” program and eventually come to the US. Sea World exchanges animals around the country and internationally to their own parks and partners parks. Like they did Tilikum.

Everyone:
I wish the US had higher standards for animal care. Baby steps I guess. Calling a Dolphin a pest fish is no excuse for how they’re “harvested”. And most dolphin and whale meat is sold to the fur industry.

I understand other countries have different customs. I just believe in my heart that cruelty and torture in all forms should be eradicated. I fight for it. In every country including our own. I’ll keep fighting until I’m gone.

Unofficially I heard the new owners have cleaned her bathtub and are providing a trainer to interact with her. The Dolphin Project is checking this out for me. And they aren’t convinced the zoo will reopen either. It’s a wait and see. It breaks my heart the Japanese Govt refused to let the Dolphin Project rehab her for release. And the poor penguins.
 

david1978

Member
Gypsy13 said:
Unfortunately, David, this is not true. Sea World still sends trainers/buyers to TaijI to pick out baby dolphins. They’re sent to Canada. Then they’re registered into the “breeding” program and eventually come to the US. Sea World exchanges animals around the country and internationally to their own parks and partners parks. Like they did Tilikum.

Everyone:
I wish the US had higher standards for animal care. Baby steps I guess. Calling a Dolphin a pest fish is no excuse for how they’re “harvested”. And most dolphin and whale meat is sold to the fur industry.

I understand other countries have different customs. I just believe in my heart that cruelty and torture in all forms should be eradicated. I fight for it. In every country including our own. I’ll keep fighting until I’m gone.

Unofficially I heard the new owners have cleaned her bathtub and are providing a trainer to interact with her. The Dolphin Project is checking this out for me. And they aren’t convinced the zoo will reopen either. It’s a wait and see. It breaks my heart the Japanese Govt refused to let the Dolphin Project rehab her for release. And the poor penguins.
So their skirting the rules on importing them. Interesting.
 

Gypsy13

Member
david1978 said:
So their skirting the rules on importing them. Interesting.
Money makes the world go round. Have any?
 

goldface

Member
Not having a dolphin show at an aquarium is akin to not having a shark exhibit. Actually, when I was visiting Seward, AK the main complaints I kept hearing when people visited the aquarium were "Where are the sharks? What kind of lousy aquarium is this?" This was years ago, so things might have changed now. Or a better analogy might be going to a theme park that has no roller coasters. Personally, I always found dolphin and orca shows to be boring. I always found watching the fish so much more interesting. When you're in the business of making money, you listen to customers' demands.
 

Gypsy13

Member
scarface said:
Not having a dolphin show at an aquarium is akin to not having a shark exhibit. Actually, when I was visiting Seward, AK the main complaints I kept hearing when people visited the aquarium were "Where are the sharks? What kind of lousy aquarium is this?" This was years ago, so things might have changed now. Or a better analogy might be going to a theme park that has no roller coasters. Personally, I always found dolphin and orca shows to be boring. I always found watching the fish so much more interesting. When you're in the business of making money, you listen to customers' demands.
There’s an aquarium in Tennessee my mom and dad went to all the time. And because Daddy loved his bb girl, he went to the trouble of asking to visit the parts the public doesn’t. He saw the maintenance, the feeding prep, the critters that were in qt. The way the employees watched everything that went on in the huge aquarium and how the public was acting. The pictures they brought back were of such diversity! Everyone looked healthy. Sharks were merrily patrolling. Rays were mating. Coral was gorgeous! I still believe they should be free but they were taken better care of there than a lot of home aquarists do.
 
  • Thread Starter

Crazycoryfishlady

Member
I'm very sad.
I came across another abandoned zoo...
This one is the Parque Zoologico Prudencio Navarro, and was abandoned a few months ago, but without care takers...
So sad that there is no conservation effort to help these poor animals
Not to mention they can't even escape or speak or ask for help.
The one honey is at still has not opened...
I still have a feeling they won't.
I wish I had a louder voice than one on a fish forum.
 

Gypsy13

Member
Crazycoryfishlady said:
I'm very sad.
I came across another abandoned zoo...
This one is the Parque Zoologico Prudencio Navarro, and was abandoned a few months ago, but without care takers...
So sad that there is no conservation effort to help these poor animals
Not to mention they can't even escape or speak or ask for help.
The one honey is at still has not opened...
I still have a feeling they won't.
I wish I had a louder voice than one on a fish forum.
The last report I’ve heard is there’s no evidence of improvements being made at Honey’s park. So unforgivably sad.

Edit to add info. According to Wild Welfare the following animals have been relocated and are receiving vet care: 2 bears, 1 tiger, 4 baboons, 9 fallow deer and 1 turtle. They will continue to update and if I hear more I’ll pass it along. All those needless deaths.
 

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