Canine obesity rant / dog food label reading skills

I was out walking one of my dogs yesterday and got told that he was too skinny. Were it Tesla, I would have agreed and said it was genetics (a pet sitter once accidentally double fed my dogs for a week and she didn't gain a pound).

However, I was with Ratchet who is at perfect weight for a normal dog and a little on the tubby side for the agility dog that he is. Yes, he does look a lot skinnier than most of the other dogs around. That has more to do with the fact that said other dogs are either overweight or outright obese. Overweight has apparently become the new normal dog and trim dogs are now relegated to scrawny. It makes me very frustrated.

That being said, I can understand how it got this way. The vets around here do not mention anything weight-wise unless the dog is morbidly obese. I never really learnt about proper dog weights until I started getting into dog sports - my first poodle was overweight bordering on obese. It wasn't until I got into flyball with my second poodle that I learnt what a fit-dog looked like. It wasn't until I got Ratchet into agility that I learnt how to spot quality dog food.

So how do you know if your dog is overweight? I'm not going to go into that here since visual cues are probably the best. The 9-point purina body condition scale is a good tool and can be found . This is the best thing that came out of their operation, because the "food" they sell is out of the running (though all the high-protein grains makes a great cheap compost accelerator for all my fellow gardeners) Oh, and for a point of reference, my "way too skinny" dog is currently a 4. Oh the horror!

If you need to get your dog down to the ideal weight, the best bet is to feed slightly less than what it recommends for the dog's target weight and increase the exercise as well (ie:// If your dog weighs 60lbs and he should be closer to 50, take the amount that the bad says to feed a 50lb dog and decrease it slightly). If the less food doesn't fill the pooch up enough, you can try padding the meal with lower-calorie quality fillers. My mother and I use cooked pumpkin while other club members have used green beans, peas or carrots.

Also, try feeding high quality foods. Higher quality foods mean they can get all the vits and bits they need without extra padded calories. Think fast food versus a bistro - you'd have to eat a lot more fast food to get the necessary vitamins and minerals just because the nutritional level is so low in fast food. More food means more calories which in turn, leads to more weight. Yes, high quality foods are more expensive, however, it's not always as much as it seems when purchasing a bag since you feed less. With Pedigree I would have ended up feeding 8+ cups a day to my two dogs (based on their recommended guidelines for weight) compared to 2.5 cups of Orijen. So with pedigree you end up feeding over three times as much. Depending on where you get it, Orijen isn't 3 times as expensive. Another bonus with this is that less in means less out.

Next question is how to figure out if a food fits the high-quality bill. If you would like to know specifically about your brand of choice, Dog Food Analysis breaks down the ingredient list for people. If you are just interested in brand names, Orijen, Taste of the Wild, Innova EVO and Wellness Core are the cream of the crop kibble. Slightly lower in price and quality are Acana, Artemis and Go Natural. I've personally used the top four and Go Natural and my dogs loved all of them (I rotated bags to get them some variety). My mother had good luck with Acana. At least some of these should be available at a quality dog store. Unfortuately if you are looking for a good food at a supermarket, you're looking at raiding the produce and meat section and making it yourself. It's surprisingly easy - I've been making food for the past year due to Tesla's allergies, but it does take some effort, bargain-shopping and a large freezer.

If you'd rather know what makes a good food instead of who makes a good food - learning to read labels is a good thing. First, look at the top five ingredients - this is the bulk of what's in the food. Dogs are meso-carnivores so you want to see mostly meat here - certainly you want to have a meat as the top ingredient. Another thing to look out for is specific labels. "Animal fat" is what exactly? Tallow (lower quality as it is), chicken fat or the left over lard from the human-grade frozen fry division? "Poultry meal" a bit better, but is it chicken, turkey or those pigeons that were caught in the rafters?.

What you want to see
= No grains, or at least whole grains lower down in the list
= fruits and veggies - provides extra vitamins and minerals, plus dogs really love them (going by the regular raids my dog's make on my garden)
= "Tocopherol", "Rosemary oil" - both are natural preservatives and much better than those listed below.

What you don't want to see
= "By-products" which is a code-word for all the bits of the animal nobody else wants to eat - think all the jokes about what goes into hotdogs
= "Grain fragments" is what falls through the cracks/onto the floor when processing human food
= "Brewers rice" is usually the crud left over after the sake has been made
= "beet pulp" is what's left from the sugar industry
= "apple pomace" is what you get after making apple juice. - This and the above three are much better suited for worms in a compost heap than a high-functioning mammal
= "Artificial colours", or pointless chemicials. Honestly, I'm sure dogs don't care what their kibble looks like
= "Artificial flavours", AKA, we know this food is inedible, so let's slather it with bacon grease so the dogs will actually touch it
= "Ethyoxiquin", "propylene glycol", "BHT", "BHA", carinogenic preservatives. Some breeders have noted that ethyoiquin causes problems with litters.

Now for the notes mumbo/jumbo. I'm not a canine nutritionalist, nor have I taken any classes in canine nutrition (though I have gotten information from one). I'm just a passionate dog-lover who has taken care of dogs for over 25 years.

While a lot of my information has come from dog classes I've taken over the years, I am neither speaking for the clubs I took the classes through, nor the instructors that taught - my views are my own. This is just me, raving about something I care about.

If you have any concerns, I suggest contacting a local pet nutritionist. I know the one at my university acts as a consult for a small fee. Yes, there may be a fee, but you are talking with someone whose job it is to know what's best for the animal and doesn't have any ties to companies (say, for example a pet food company sponsering a veterinary medicine association)

 

Good info above. It's amazing how many overweight dogs I see around here.

I feed our dogs in the morning, my husband has the late afternoon meal. Whenever I saw the amount of food he was putting into one of the smaller dog's dish, I was floored!

He says, "Well, Merlin and Scruff are the same size, why doesn't Merlin get the same amount of food?" (He wasn't even measuring, he was eyeballing). The answer here is that Scruff is a live wire, runs everywhere, chases tennis balls constantly indoors and out, and Merlin is a couch potato. Scruff works it off. Merlin doesn't. Seems like common sense should rule in this situation, right?

 

I agree .. and my pet peeve (pun intended) is that most dogs are not getting enough exercise.

A walk around the block is not exercise for a dog. An hour at the dog park .. is NOT exercise for a dog.

Wild, natural canines move like nomads, 3 to 5 hours per day always searching for food. They find small morsels, like a mouse, bird, bugs or some tasty garbage and once in a while they get lucky with a big kill which lasts a few days and then they're back to roaming again.

We've taken them to the couch and upped their food intake and quality of food. They need more exercise to compensate.

I used to own sight hounds. They are a naturally lean breed but my Stirling went to work with me every day and ran through the bush 8 hours a day. He was fed double the recommended calorie count of dog food, plus two peanut butter sandwich snacks while we were working (and I was packing the grub) and he was still lean. I always had people shouting at me to feed my dog.

Ah .. the days .. I was skinny then too and I was eating 4000 calories per day. Now, I'm fat on 1200 and have to get on the treadmill to try and keep it off .. sheesh (the office/couch life will kill me)

 

That is one incredibly gorgeous dog.....

 

Good info above. It's amazing how many overweight dogs I see around here.

I feed our dogs in the morning, my husband has the late afternoon meal. Whenever I saw the amount of food he was putting into one of the smaller dog's dish, I was floored!

He says, "Well, Merlin and Scruff are the same size, why doesn't Merlin get the same amount of food?" (He wasn't even measuring, he was eyeballing). The answer here is that Scruff is a live wire, runs everywhere, chases tennis balls constantly indoors and out, and Merlin is a couch potato. Scruff works it off. Merlin doesn't. Seems like common sense should rule in this situation, right?

Yeah, I understand that. My parents have a similar situation. Candy and MoxI are the same size, but MoxI gets twice as much because she's a- younger, b- a lot more active and c-self-regulates.

The suggested feeding guides on the packet size are just that - suggestions for the average dog of an average activity level. Some of the higher quality brands (Orijen for sure, and I think EVO and Wellness) have guides for different activity levels. But still, every dog is different and lots of factors need to be taken into account.

Basics: use the guideline as a starting point. If your dog is gaining weight, feed *less* (thanks for the catch GemstonePony). If you can count vertebrae and/or multiple ribs, feed more.

Oh, and if you have a dog like my Tesla who just can't seem to put on weight quickly, coconut seems to work at least a little.

 

good info FailedSlacker!

If your dog is gaining weight, feed more.

Do you mean "feed less"?
We've mostly owned one dog at a time, so we don't have to deal with multiple doggy rations.
our mutt is a 6 on that scale!
But, we just got done with winter when NO-ONE was exercising, and my brother-in-law now comes over to take the dog with him on 3-mile-runs, and now the weather is better for playing fetch with him... he should lose some weight, and we have decreased his food anyways.
My sister did some research and discovered that a lot of Labs are allergic to corn, so we try to avoid that for our Golden/Lab Retriever X. His coat has looked a lot better for it than our old lab's coat did.

 

... where is that embarrassed smiley when you need it?

yes, I meant feed less. I've been stuck doing nothing but make-busy work for the past few weeks so my mind tends to do it's own thing.

I think boxers have severe corn allergies as well. Tesla has a bit of lab in her - her sister's look like labs and she has the webbed feet - and she's got the allergy.

 

My dogs have always been 4's on that test ranking. When you've been in dog rescue as long as I have, you recognize underfed vs overfed immediately. You pray for the 4's.

 

Obesity in dogs is one of my pet peeves as well.

However, I'm extremely careful putting weight on an emaciated dog. When I fostered for a lab rescue years ago, most of the dogs came in underweight. I would feed them per their weight + 25%. That way they put the weight on gradually which is much more healthy than overfeeding heavily to put on weight.

I use the same technique with my current fosters.

I've also found it extremely helpful to feed underweight dogs twice a day, even as adults, to help them gain the weight safely.

I'm the first to agree, that dog foods containing grain or byproducts as the first ingredient isn't best for a dog's nutritional needs. However, most people cannot afford to feed their dogs the foods that contain meat as the first ingredient. I have a few less-expensive brands that I feel quite comfortable feeding my dogs. My dogs are fed "middle of the line" foods. Not garbage, but not top of the line. Nutritionally, they probably eat better than we do in this economy.

 

Brewers rice has nothing to do with making Sake or anything else that is brewed. It is rice by-product. It has less nutritional value than whole rice but it is not "crud left over from making Sake".

There seems to be a lot of over thinking when it comes to dog food. Many of the foods like Orijen and Acana, Wellness Core and Innova EVO are unbelievably over priced and people use them because someone starts a web site claiming to know what is good for everyone's dog and everyone believes them. Overweight dogs are rampant and something should be done about it but telling people that they should feed grain free or any certain brand is not going to do it. Just like with humans...... eat less, exercise and you'll weigh less.

Taste of The Wild uses ingredients that can not be traced so who knows where they come from. Taste of The Wild certainly can not verify where their rice or chicken came from. Until recently, they used ethoxyquin as a preservative. That is why they were the least expensive grain free for quite some time. Ethoxyquin is a known carcinogen.

Unless your dog has specific problems that verifiably can be solved by going grain free (allergies to grains), there is no need to skip grains. Grains are not "bad" for your dog. No, they should not be the first ingredient in a dog food but if you have an overweight dog, there is no reason to go out and find a dog food that does not have grains.

I am just a dog behaviorist and trainer that happens to see a lot of different dogs on a lot of different diets along with a lot of different owners that have a lot of different theories about nutrition for their dogs.

 

Obesity in dogs is one of my pet peeves as well.

However, I'm extremely careful putting weight on an emaciated dog. When I fostered for a lab rescue years ago, most of the dogs came in underweight. I would feed them per their weight + 25%. That way they put the weight on gradually which is much more healthy than overfeeding heavily to put on weight.

I use the same technique with my current fosters.

I've also found it extremely helpful to feed underweight dogs twice a day, even as adults, to help them gain the weight safely.

I'm the first to agree, that dog foods containing grain or byproducts as the first ingredient isn't best for a dog's nutritional needs. However, most people cannot afford to feed their dogs the foods that contain meat as the first ingredient. I have a few less-expensive brands that I feel quite comfortable feeding my dogs. My dogs are fed "middle of the line" foods. Not garbage, but not top of the line. Nutritionally, they probably eat better than we do in this economy.

I think the price difference between high quality and low quality foods is nowhere near as much as it look when you consider how much of each you are putting in a bowl. You end up feeding less with the higher quality foods and not by a small margin. As I previously mentioned, according to the label, I'd need 8+ cups of "Natural Defense" Mars' so-called premium line to feed my two pups. WIth Orijen, I was feeding 2 and a half cups. When I rescued Ratchet, he was being fed 3 cups of purina dog chow and when I switched to EVO, he was getting just under 3/4 of a cup. I'm a year out of date on dog food prices, but I used to pay between 60 and 70$ for a large bag of the high quality stuff - depending on the brand and where I got it. Assuming you feed a third less of the low-quality stuff, to be equal value-wise, the low-quality bags would have to be less than 20 to 24$. I haven't been down a pet aisle, so I don't know if they are aroudn there. I guess my point is, it may be worthwhile to look into it instead of just assuming it's too expensive.

Brewers rice has nothing to do with making Sake or anything else that is brewed. It is rice by-product. It has less nutritional value than whole rice but it is not "crud left over from making Sake".

There seems to be a lot of over thinking when it comes to dog food. Many of the foods like Orijen and Acana, Wellness Core and Innova EVO are unbelievably over priced and people use them because someone starts a web site claiming to know what is good for everyone's dog and everyone believes them. Overweight dogs are rampant and something should be done about it but telling people that they should feed grain free or any certain brand is not going to do it. Just like with humans...... eat less, exercise and you'll weigh less.

Taste of The Wild uses ingredients that can not be traced so who knows where they come from. Taste of The Wild certainly can not verify where their rice or chicken came from. Until recently, they used ethoxyquin as a preservative. That is why they were the least expensive grain free for quite some time. Ethoxyquin is a known carcinogen.

Unless your dog has specific problems that verifiably can be solved by going grain free (allergies to grains), there is no need to skip grains. Grains are not "bad" for your dog. No, they should not be the first ingredient in a dog food but if you have an overweight dog, there is no reason to go out and find a dog food that does not have grains.

I am just a dog behaviorist and trainer that happens to see a lot of different dogs on a lot of different diets along with a lot of different owners that have a lot of different theories about nutrition for their dogs.

I'll admit that "Crud left over from sake" has some dramatic hyperbole common in rants. However, it's closer than you seem to think. Yes, it is a rice by-rpoduct meaning the bits of the rice that aren't being used elsewhere - of which the alchohol industry is a major supplier.

AS I mentioned above, the "horribly overpriced" seems to be more of a sticker-shock of seeing the price of a bag. Value-wise, they are a lot closer. It's not just people on websites who have issues with most of the commercial dog-food. Talking to tenured pet nutrition professors about the quality of main-stream commercial dog food can get quite lively (here's a hint: my views are quite mild). Certainly though, don't take my views as gospel nor any website. Go out, read the labels and question - take everything with a grain of salt and consider following the money trail.

 

I also have had someone make a comment about my 7 month old DACHSHUND puppy, that he was skinny!

My vet said, however that he is in PERFECT condition and even joked about his impressive muscle tone by saying maybe he's part bulldog lol

If anyone who knows weiner dogs, it is very crucial to keep them from getting overweight. Their backs being so long cannot support excess weight and it can lead to pain and paralysis.

I've also met other dachsie owners with very fat dogs that tell me "don't let yours get this fat". Ok, so why are you letting yours be so fat? (I say to myself)

My parents have a shepard-lab mix who turned out to have a severe thyroid condition that made him morbidly obese despite exercise and normal feedings. Since his medication he has lost quite a bit of weight and is feeling much better. Added years to his life!

Just a little tip my vet gave me about treats:

Finnigan gets a lot of treats because he is now in intermediate training - (he passed his puppy class with flying colours!)
So I was worried (because he's a fussy eater) that he wasn't eating his Fromm, and gettign too many treats with training. So the vet reccomended freeze dried liver, or cooking liver yourself. It's pure protien, free of preservatives, fat, etc. and Finiigan LOVES it!!!! Very healthy for them!

 

My dogs are fed "middle of the line" foods. Not garbage, but not top of the line. Nutritionally, they probably eat better than we do in this economy.

I agree..... and this is why I supplement their diet with fresh fruits and veggies daily. If you've got smaller dogs, then the really decent bagged food's not that expensive, but it really bites your wallet if you have big dogs.

 

I think the price difference between high quality and low quality foods is nowhere near as much as it look when you consider how much of each you are putting in a bowl. You end up feeding less with the higher quality foods and not by a small margin. As I previously mentioned, according to the label, I'd need 8+ cups of "Natural Defense" Mars' so-called premium line to feed my two pups. WIth Orijen, I was feeding 2 and a half cups. When I rescued Ratchet, he was being fed 3 cups of purina dog chow and when I switched to EVO, he was getting just under 3/4 of a cup. I'm a year out of date on dog food prices, but I used to pay between 60 and 70$ for a large bag of the high quality stuff - depending on the brand and where I got it. Assuming you feed a third less of the low-quality stuff, to be equal value-wise, the low-quality bags would have to be less than 20 to 24$. I haven't been down a pet aisle, so I don't know if they are aroudn there. I guess my point is, it may be worthwhile to look into it instead of just assuming it's too expensive.

I'll admit that "Crud left over from sake" has some dramatic hyperbole common in rants. However, it's closer than you seem to think. Yes, it is a rice by-rpoduct meaning the bits of the rice that aren't being used elsewhere - of which the alchohol industry is a major supplier.

AS I mentioned above, the "horribly overpriced" seems to be more of a sticker-shock of seeing the price of a bag. Value-wise, they are a lot closer. It's not just people on websites who have issues with most of the commercial dog-food. Talking to tenured pet nutrition professors about the quality of main-stream commercial dog food can get quite lively (here's a hint: my views are quite mild). Certainly though, don't take my views as gospel nor any website. Go out, read the labels and question - take everything with a grain of salt and consider following the money trail.

Feeding less of any dog food will make for a slimmer dog so the "value" of high priced dog food doesn't make sense to me. Don't go by what the feeding guides on the bags state. Those are just a rough guide for first time dog owners. Look at your dogs body shape and figure out how much to feed. Look for the Kcal numbers on the bag. Higher Kcals will mean more calories.

Who are these "tenured pet nutrition professors"? What kind of dog nutrition education do they have and who gave them that title? And if they are professors, where do they teach? From what I understand, veterinarians get somewhere between 2-4 weeks of "pet nutrition education" which is usually sponsored by Science Diet so veterinarians, although an incredibly valuable source of information, have very little credibility when it comes to dog food. They usually sell Science Diet in their offices and that says a lot.

 

Finnigan gets a lot of treats because he is now in intermediate training - (he passed his puppy class with flying colours!)
So I was worried (because he's a fussy eater) that he wasn't eating his Fromm, and gettign too many treats with training.

Congrats on passing the puppy class

When I was training we took into account the calories in treats and reduced their daily feeding by that amount.

When we were really training a lot we just used their dog food kibbles as reward and they were given a really tiny dinner ration that night.

We also made up really low cal, treats. Fry liver in bacon grease, cut it really tiny and thin, put a paper towel in the left over grease and then put that paper towel in a bag of cheerios and shake it around. The cheerios pick up all the flavour and very little of the actual grease. Take out the paper towel and add in the liver bits and wow ... sometimes the dog gets a cheerio and sometimes they get a liver bit. They work twice as hard because they're so excited about the random liver bits (it's like playing the lottery or the slot machines, win once and you'll keep dropping your nickel in) !

 

When I rescued Ratchet, he was being fed 3 cups of purina dog chow and when I switched to EVO, he was getting just under 3/4 of a cup.

Exactly! If your dog can absorb more nutrition from their food they need a lot less of it.

If it's all junk they absorb few nutrients and need to eat a lot more.

... SO another enormous benefit of great quality dog food is LESS POOP to scoop.

 

I think the price difference between high quality and low quality foods is nowhere near as much as it look when you consider how much of each you are putting in a bowl. You end up feeding less with the higher quality foods and not by a small margin. As I previously mentioned, according to the label, I'd need 8+ cups of "Natural Defense" Mars' so-called premium line to feed my two pups. WIth Orijen, I was feeding 2 and a half cups. When I rescued Ratchet, he was being fed 3 cups of purina dog chow and when I switched to EVO, he was getting just under 3/4 of a cup. I'm a year out of date on dog food prices, but I used to pay between 60 and 70$ for a large bag of the high quality stuff - depending on the brand and where I got it. Assuming you feed a third less of the low-quality stuff, to be equal value-wise, the low-quality bags would have to be less than 20 to 24$. I haven't been down a pet aisle, so I don't know if they are aroudn there. I guess my point is, it may be worthwhile to look into it instead of just assuming it's too expensive.

I'll admit that "Crud left over from sake" has some dramatic hyperbole common in rants. However, it's closer than you seem to think. Yes, it is a rice by-rpoduct meaning the bits of the rice that aren't being used elsewhere - of which the alchohol industry is a major supplier.

AS I mentioned above, the "horribly overpriced" seems to be more of a sticker-shock of seeing the price of a bag. Value-wise, they are a lot closer. It's not just people on websites who have issues with most of the commercial dog-food. Talking to tenured pet nutrition professors about the quality of main-stream commercial dog food can get quite lively (here's a hint: my views are quite mild). Certainly though, don't take my views as gospel nor any website. Go out, read the labels and question - take everything with a grain of salt and consider following the money trail.

I had my giant schnauzer on the high quality dog food when he was a puppy. It cost twice as much as what he eats now, which is "middle of the road". Money got tight, I spoke with my vet and found a happy medium. There was no "assuming" of anything. I do my research and work within a budget.

The brand he eats now is comparitive in "recommended feeding amounts" to the "high quality food". I agree that you should adjust feeding for your individual dog, but when comparing "usage pricing", the recommended feeding amounts is an excellent tool. Hagan eats more daily than they recommend to stay in excellent shape and our lab mix Jake eats less daily than they recommend to stay in good shape.

In regards to what you're feeding yours, if the "large bag" is 50 lbs, you're still paying twice as much as I am for a "middle of the road" dog food. A large bag of food to feed two dogs with a combined weight of 185lbs will feed my boys for a month.

Something else I consider in regards to the dog good I buy is the muscle tone of my boys. Hagan is fairly active, he's 100% solid muscle which I find extremely important since he carries over 100 lbs of weight supported by his legs. I love the fact that the muscles around his joints are in excellent condition and he's not carrying around fat that would make his body work harder to support him.

Due to Jake's limited activity level (he doesn't play often-he's had a difficult life before we adopted him), we just keep Jake from becoming obese and take every opportunity to help him run and play so he stays healthy and has a longer and fuller life.

As in other aspects of life, dog food doesn't have to be the "right food or wrong food". Everyone should do what's best for them and everyone's thoughts should be accepted.

We're all here to learn from each other.

 

Feeding less of any dog food will make for a slimmer dog so the "value" of high priced dog food doesn't make sense to me. Don't go by what the feeding guides on the bags state. Those are just a rough guide for first time dog owners. Look at your dogs body shape and figure out how much to feed. Look for the Kcal numbers on the bag. Higher Kcals will mean more calories.

Who are these "tenured pet nutrition professors"? What kind of dog nutrition education do they have and who gave them that title? And if they are professors, where do they teach? From what I understand, veterinarians get somewhere between 2-4 weeks of "pet nutrition education" which is usually sponsored by Science Diet so veterinarians, although an incredibly valuable source of information, have very little credibility when it comes to dog food. They usually sell Science Diet in their offices and that says a lot.

First, yes you can feed less of the low quality but then you are running into the problems of the dog not getting enough of the required vitamins and minerals.

As for tenured pet nutrition professors that would be any University professor specializing in pet nutrition who has achieved tenure - tenure being where they can't get fired for stepping on someone's toes (like say a vet who goes against their association's sponser). In order to achieve tenure, the professor requires a doctorate in their area of work, a certain amount of published peer reviewed articles, and go through several interviews and audits - it is by no means a self-given title. These are the people who teach the 4-month university courses with pet nutrition and they and their classes are being paid for by tuition and not some company. Basically, the people whose business is to know what is best to feed animals.

 

I have always purchased dog food that my Vet's recommend. I cook potatoes, carrots, peas and beans for them so they don't get salt in any food. They go outside in the summer and pick their own raspberries and blueberries--I lock them out of my vegetable garden or they would consume my tomatoes, peas, beans and cucumbers--they do get those also, but I prefer to feed it to them. I would never feed my dogs the amount that is listed on the food bag--I don't think they could eat that much food and I certainly couldn't control their weight. I don't know who figures out that a medium sized dog could eat as much as what is suggested on these bags of food for the size my dogs are. As far as I am concerned--it is grossly over-stated. My male Cocker gets 1/2 cup of kibbles twice a day and I believe the bag states 2 to 2 1/2 cups a day for a less active dog and of course more for a more active dog. I can't imagine what he would look like feeding that much food, even if I omitted the vegetables and fruit. Yipes!

My problem is that the "traitor" is living in the house. Hubby thinks my male Cocker is skinny, the Vet and I don't and if I didn't watch our little girl Cocker, she would be a stump. They get their high quality kibbles morning and night and get vegetables and/or fruit for their lunch. They do not eat any food prepared for our table--even though when I cook vegetables for our table I do not add salt. Feeding them vegetables at noon means they are not begging for cookies all day long from the traitor. He has been warned on more than one occasion about overfeeding and too many cookies. I do not want any hip or knee problems from an overweight dog.

 

Congrats on passing the puppy class

When I was training we took into account the calories in treats and reduced their daily feeding by that amount.

When we were really training a lot we just used their dog food kibbles as reward and they were given a really tiny dinner ration that night.

We also made up really low cal, treats. Fry liver in bacon grease, cut it really tiny and thin, put a paper towel in the left over grease and then put that paper towel in a bag of cheerios and shake it around. The cheerios pick up all the flavour and very little of the actual grease. Take out the paper towel and add in the liver bits and wow ... sometimes the dog gets a cheerio and sometimes they get a liver bit. They work twice as hard because they're so excited about the random liver bits (it's like playing the lottery or the slot machines, win once and you'll keep dropping your nickel in) !

Thanks MzMolly!

That's an excellent idea! I am definitely going to try that the next batch of liver is cooked.x
Finnigan is a VERY picky eater. We started him on Nutro, then changed to Orijen - which I really liked. He really did absorb more nutrients like the vet said - and there was much less poop! Unfortunately, Finnigan didn't care for it much but he liked a sample of Fromm that we got from the petstore, so we switched him to that (this all happened over months). He still doesn't eat like a normal dog, but Fromm seems to be the one he dislikes the least**

I don't think he will ever have a problem with gaining weight (however that's what I said about myself years ago haha) - he is currently a muscular 4.

 

Nice rant, FailedSlacker. It's just as unhealthy for dogs and cats to be overweight and not get enough exercise as it is for we humans. It astounds me when people who are vigilant about their own diets have overweight pets. What a disconnect...

My three bouviers eat EVO Red Meat. My almost 3 yo male is 76 pounds. He eats 3 cups a day. His sister is 72 pounds and eats 2.5 cups a day. They are both very active. Their mama weighs 68 pounds and eats 2 cups a day. She is less active than the pups but still a high energy dog. All three are in great shape, well-muscled, not a bit of fat, alert and athletic.

I prefer a grain free/low-carb diet for them. The pups' mama, Rilla, gets a bit itchy on food containing wheat. She's never eaten food containing beet or corn so I don't know if she'd have a reaction to either of them. The pups have eaten only had Innova Large Breed Puppy and EVO Red Meat.

Other than no itching, Rilla's teeth became cleaner. She's always had bones to chew on so her teeth were pretty clean anyway but I believe (no scientific backup) the improvement was due to fewer carbs.

The downside to me is, EVO's parent company was recently bought by Proctor and Gamble. P&G ruined Eukanuba many years ago. Dog food companies have up to 6 months to note a change in formula on the bag. I'm watching the food closely but am considering a change... just haven't found anything I like yet.

 

It astounds me when people who are vigilant about their own diets have overweight pets. What a disconnect...

... and how many of us are diligently watching our pet's weight so they're healthy while being overweight ourselves??

*hangs head in shame and raises hand*

 

... and how many of us are diligently watching our pet's weight so they're healthy while being overweight ourselves??

*hangs head in shame and raises hand*

While I wasn't overweight, I was at the higher end of what was healthy. Keeping my dogs at their proper weight inspired me to drop 30 lbs and 2 pant sizes - though I'm thinking all the running around with agility training helps too.

 

... and how many of us are diligently watching our pet's weight so they're healthy while being overweight ourselves??

*hangs head in shame and raises hand*

Yeah, it happens. Truth be known I'm not overweight or unhealthy but I'm definitely "under exercised", so I have my own disconnect going too.


@FailedSlacker... What? You mean you don't have your dogs trained to hand signals so you can stand in the middle of the course and direct them? LOL

 

Uh, I wish. If there is teeter or dog walk on the course though, Ratchet is taking it unless I'm close enough to catch him. He was the freak of his class in that he loved teeters but hated the tunnels. I ended up doing some one-on-one classes to get him to go into the tunnels.

As for Tesla, I had to switch her over to rally-o because she tended to panic if she actually had to *do stuff* more than a meter away from me. She also never grew out of her clumsy puppy stage which meant more often than not, she'd be jumping into the poles instead of over the jumps.

 

First, yes you can feed less of the low quality but then you are running into the problems of the dog not getting enough of the required vitamins and minerals.


As for tenured pet nutrition professors that would be any University professor specializing in pet nutrition who has achieved tenure - tenure being where they can't get fired for stepping on someone's toes (like say a vet who goes against their association's sponser). In order to achieve tenure, the professor requires a doctorate in their area of work, a certain amount of published peer reviewed articles, and go through several interviews and audits - it is by no means a self-given title. These are the people who teach the 4-month university courses with pet nutrition and they and their classes are being paid for by tuition and not some company. Basically, the people whose business is to know what is best to feed animals.

I don't want to sound like I am for feeding dogs low quality food. I get a lot of high end dog food for little or no cost so that is what I feed my dogs but it seems that people tend to look at dog food in terms of black or white. There are grey areas.

The required vitamins and minerals are in all pet foods. AAFCO (the Association of American Feed Control Officials) mandates that all dog food have "the required levels of vitamins and minerals". It can't hit the shelves without certain criteria being met. Unless your dog has vitamin deficiencies, why would you want more than the required amount? If your dog is overweight and on a high end food and you feed it less to encourage weight loss, you'd have to cut down on those vitamins and minerals also.

A few years ago, dog food companies finally came around to knowing just how much money people are willing to spend on their pets..... whether they need to or not. It went from, "use grain free if your vet has concluded that your dog has allergies to grains" to, "use grain free because it's better for your dog". They do a great job of promoting their products and discouraging people from using products that are just fine for their dogs by scaring them. It's marketing at it's best.


I have never heard of any university professors that specialize in pet nutrition. What university provides that???? Who are they teaching? Where are all these pet nutrition doctors hiding? It sounds like a 4 month class that most vets missed. Is it professors that specialize in pet nutrition or "what is best to feed animals"? Two very different subjects.

 

I have never heard of any university professors that specialize in pet nutrition. What university provides that???? Who are they teaching? Where are all these pet nutrition doctors hiding? It sounds like a 4 month class that most vets missed. Is it professors that specialize in pet nutrition or "what is best to feed animals"? Two very different subjects.

Perhaps this is useful information.