Ligers are not all sterile, I believ not all combos of cichlids are sterile either.Merri68 said:Whatever the little fella is, he's sure a handsome guy. I only recently learned that some species can interbreed. Are the resultant progeny always able to reproduce? Or are they mostly sterile like lygers or horse/donkey hybrids?
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that most (if not all) flowerhorns have Midas in them. Most of them are hybrids from within the same family. What we see in them today (the bumpy head, aggression, etc) is mostly the result of linebreeding. I have yet to see a low-grade flowerhorn that didn't scream Midas cichlid to me in appearance.chromedome52 said:Actually, most combinations of Central American Cichlids are fertile. There's a whole industry that has built up around this fact: the Flowerhorn fad. These are all hybrids of various CA Cichlids. In a general sense, the fish above would be classified as some type of Flowerhorn.
Cichlids are actually very much interfertile within subfamilies, and occasionally across subfamily lines.
Indeed, ive wondered in thepast if this is thesame thing ligers have,not to broing up those silly Things again.chromedome52 said:Yes, they are all in the same family. It's called Cichlidae. I believe you were thinking of Genus, but intergeneric hybrids are also common, becoming a big thing with the Flowerhorn people. There is another classification, called subfamily, that falls between the two. Crosses across these lines are less common and more likely to be infertile.
The first flowerhorns were crosses of Amphilophus trimaculatus and other species, most often A. lyonsi. A. citrinellus and labiatus are used for some forms, such as Red Texas, which is an intergeneric hybrid, but they really aren't used for that many types. It wasn't being used much in the early flowerhorns. More recently, some species currently placed in the Genera Paratheraps and Vieja are being added into the breeding mix.
All of these species naturally grow nuchal humps, but for some reason it has the potential to be much bigger in the hybrids. Line breeding from there can increase it to insane levels.
No, the technical name for what I'm talking about is the betta's complex. Splendens complex, coccina complex, etc. When talking with betta folks, often the term "family" and "complex" are used interchangeably. They're called complexes because the fish are very closely related and most can hybridize with each other - which we try to discourage. But closely related = family, right? LOL.hampalong said:It is. Genera are within families?
I understand species complexes. I suppose family would be ok in a context where everyone understood it isn't meant taxonomically. But why call them families when they already have the name complex?junebug said:No, the technical name for what I'm talking about is the betta's complex. Splendens complex, coccina complex, etc. When talking with betta folks, often the term "family" and "complex" are used interchangeably. They're called complexes because the fish are very closely related and most can hybridize with each other - which we try to discourage. But closely related = family, right? LOL.
Lol, I know that, but it also applies to increased size in general. Like the increased growth rate that some hybrids display.junebug said:I should ask Julie Tran about it next time I talk to her. I know her because she imports bettas alongside her other business, which is Flowerhorn import.
For the record the term "hybrid vigor" mostly applies to hybrid offspring that are healthier, hardier, and more adaptable than either of the parent fish. It's not about the hump Hybrid vigor is actually fairly rare in nature, most hybrids end up with health issues, or sterile. It would be interesting to find out if this is the case with early flowerhorns.
Also sorry, being that I'm a wild betta person, I tend to use the wrong term for classifications. Because the various wild betta species all belong to their own families within the genus... it's confusing. LOL. Obviously all cichlids belong to the scientific family cichlidae.
That's not correct. Those genes are always mixed up depending on individual genetics. Some animals have looser size restrictions.chromedome52 said:A lot of people use the term "families" when talking about groups or complexes. The problem with doing so is that Family has a specific taxonomic meaning. It is always a good idea to be as precise as possible with these terms to avoid confusion.
As of a few years ago, some enthusiasts wouldn't even call the fish a flowerhorn if there wasn't any Trimac in it. The general Cichlid hobby, however, commonly uses the term for pretty much any hybrid of Central American Cichlids. The reason you see a lot that appear to have citrinellus complex in them is that Red Texas culls are being widely distributed through Petsmart, among others. RT is a combination of A. labiatus with Herichthys species, most often H. carpintis. The labiatus is preferred because the color is more red, rather than the yellow/orange of citrinellus. Most "Red Devils" in commercial sources are actually hybrids of these two species anyway.
Ligers and Tions are bigger than either parent species because the genes that limit size are mixed up and don't know where to stop the growth. It has nothing to do with "hybrid vigor". The same situation occurs with the nuchal hump of Frankenhorns, but linebreeding and diet can take them to ridiculous levels.