Calling all plant pros!

I am trying to figure out what is going wrong with my wisteria, I have searched and read several similar threads but haven't found a definite answer on what it is and how to fix curling leaves and one stem turning black from bottom up.


I don't own a test kit so parameters are unknown, lighting is cheap led that comes with aqueon 45gallon combo, have used seachem root tabs months ago but not recent and am currently dosing liquid flourish. In similar threads I've seen this same problem occurring around the same time, about 8 months of the plants doing fairly well and suddenly taking a turn. Can anyone say for sure what this is and or how to reverse it? Maybe it's just too much plant and I need to trim out the bulk and old to let the new growth replace the old? I've seen in the other threads people leaning towards calcium deficiency, I'm kinda worried about adding any crushed coral or cuddlebone as I could harm my fish from what I've read, the fish are 1 reedfish and 5 danio. Thanks for reading and thank you for any help on solving this from what it looks me somewhat common problem.
Happy fishkeeping!

 

Oh. I don’t have water wisteria. CURSE YOU TOPFIN!!1!,1!,!!! Sea chem isn’t a very good fert, also reedfish like hard water so it’s ok.

 

Id say its probably lighting and ferts. Your lighting looks to be sufficient for growth though.
Id recommend an all in one fertilizer. Are you dosing flourish comprehensive?flourish excel?
Water wisteria grows different leaf structure based on lighting so I'm guessing yours appears to be low light. It grows alot like watersprite under high light with needle like leaves.
Just get an all in one fert and you should start to see a difference.

 

I'm not an aquatic plant expert but have grown a lot of land plants. I wonder if it's a seasonal change? You could try pulling it out, cutting off the black part (is it still firm and just a color change or is it squishy and starting to decay?), and replant it. It looks like there's some healthy roots coming from higher up on the stems.

 

I agree with LeviS. It appears to be a problem with fertilization. Your lighting appears to be ok as you can tell by leaf structure. I noticed that my wisteria looked like this years ago before I actually knew about ferts. I think you could be dosing one type of nutrient and not another, leading to this appearance. Curling leaves are a sign of calcium deficiency. I also see some whitish coloration on the leaf tips, which could point to lack of iron. I would try root tabs again and see if that makes a difference. For a more complete fertilizer, I recommend Easy Green. Some people have had problems with it, but I never have. Get stronger lighting if possible, but wisteria is tough, so It's not entirely necessary. Anyway, not all cheap leds are bad! some are actually really good for plants. I have a $20.00 led from Amazon that makes my crypts and ludwigia go crazy. Basically, just make sure it's getting all of the nutrients it needs.

 

I'm not an aquatic plant expert but have grown a lot of land plants. I wonder if it's a seasonal change? You could try pulling it out, cutting off the black part (is it still firm and just a color change or is it squishy and starting to decay?), and replant it. It looks like there's some healthy roots coming from higher up on the stems.

For most aquatic plants you don’t want to move them once they are settled because it could mess with them from what I’ve heard

 

Id say its probably lighting and ferts. Your lighting looks to be sufficient for growth though.
Id recommend an all in one fertilizer. Are you dosing flourish comprehensive?flourish excel?
Water wisteria grows different leaf structure based on lighting so I'm guessing yours appears to be low light. It grows alot like watersprite under high light with needle like leaves.
Just get an all in one fert and you should start to see a difference.

It is comprehensive, is that not all in one? Also just ordered a nicrew sky 2 light on amazon!

 

For most aquatic plants you don’t want to move them once they are settled because it could mess with them from what I’ve heard

In most cases I completely agree with leaving them in place, but if the buried part is decaying then there's nothing to disturb and you'll probably want to remove that part from the tank so it doesn't foul the water. I can't tell from the picture if it's just a color change or if it's going squishy.

 

In most cases I completely agree with leaving them in place, but if the buried part is decaying then there's nothing to disturb and you'll probably want to remove that part from the tank so it doesn't foul the water. I can't tell from the picture if it's just a color change or if it's going squishy.

I haven't messed with it yet, but I do believe that it is probably decaying and needs to be removed soon!

 

A lack of nutrients is causing the curling on the leaves. The black stem is rot and needs to be cut off before it continues to spread. Your light might not be strong enough to support the leaves lower down on your plant.

 

Water wisteria is a stem plant that will do best with good lighting and liquid fertilizer.

The lighting that comes with the Aqueon kit may not be strong enough. I cannot find any specifications for the light, so I do not know for sure.

Root tabs are designed primarily for plants that are heavy root feeders like Amazon sword plants, Valisneria, and Saggitaria. Stem plants like wisteria do have roots and will feed from the substrate, but they absorb a lot of nutrients from the water column. Liquid fertilizers may be just what they need.

There are various types of fertilizers. Some are all-in-one that contain both macronutrients and micronutrients. Some contain specific macronutrients and some contain a mixture of micronutrients.

If your tank already has enough nitrogen, you may not need to add more. I suggest you get a test kit to check nitrate levels.

Many tanks are deficient in potassium. I dose Seachem Potassium.

Although micronutrients are only needed in trace concentrations, plants will not do well without them. Products like Seachem Comprehensive are a blend of micronutrients.

 

View attachment 746171 I am trying to figure out what is going wrong with my wisteria, I have searched and read several similar threads but haven't found a definite answer on what it is and how to fix curling leaves and one stem turning black from bottom up.

I don't own a test kit so parameters are unknown, lighting is cheap led that comes with aqueon 45gallon combo, have used seachem root tabs months ago but not recent and am currently dosing liquid flourish. In similar threads I've seen this same problem occurring around the same time, about 8 months of the plants doing fairly well and suddenly taking a turn. Can anyone say for sure what this is and or how to reverse it? Maybe it's just too much plant and I need to trim out the bulk and old to let the new growth replace the old? I've seen in the other threads people leaning towards calcium deficiency, I'm kinda worried about adding any crushed coral or cuddlebone as I could harm my fish from what I've read, the fish are 1 reedfish and 5 danio. Thanks for reading and thank you for any help on solving this from what it looks me somewhat common problem.
Happy fishkeeping!

Hi Nomofish

The suggestions above are close, it is nutrient related.

There is no 'new leaves' in your photos; please confirm that the new leaves come out looking more or less normal and flat and as the leaves mature they start 'cupping' (either upward or downward depending upon the species).

Also, do you happen to know any of your water parameters? pH, dKH, dGH?

-Roy

 

Hi Nomofish

The suggestions above are close, it is nutrient related.

There is no 'new leaves' in your photos; please confirm that the new leaves come out looking more or less normal and flat and as the leaves mature they start 'cupping' (either upward or downward depending upon the species).

Also, do you happen to know any of your water parameters? pH, dKH, dGH?

-Roy

Thank you Roy! Yes the new leaves seem to be more normal looking but more broad than the stringy look, but even some of the newer leaves still have a slight downward curl, I have a new light coming in which is a nicrew sky which I am hoping will help, I'm thinking if I do a large water change and cut out some of the old stems that will allow the newer growth to get flourishing and replace the old fairly quick, also I do not know what the parameters are and need to get a test kit to help pinpoint what is going on! Maybe I will get one this weekend!

Thanks,
Nomofish

 

I would start by picking up a all in 1 fert like Nilocg Thrive C, After a week or 2 you should start to see a difference

 

Thank you Roy! Yes the new leaves seem to be more normal looking but more broad than the stringy look, but even some of the newer leaves still have a slight downward curl, I have a new light coming in which is a nicrew sky which I am hoping will help, I'm thinking if I do a large water change and cut out some of the old stems that will allow the newer growth to get flourishing and replace the old fairly quick, also I do not know what the parameters are and need to get a test kit to help pinpoint what is going on! Maybe I will get one this weekend!

Thanks,
Nomofish

Hi Nomofish

For test kits pick up a pH test kit and a combination KH/GH test kit. The API test kits will work fine for both. While shopping stop at your local drug store and pick up a bag of Epsom Salt (about $2 or less). Get the cheapest stuff on the shelf with not scents, perfumes, or additives. Why? I strongly suspect the issue with your tank is insufficient available magnesium. The 'cupping' leaves and fungus attacking the stems are common symptoms of this deficiency. This can be caused by not enough magnesium in the water supply or if there is too much calcium or potassium in the water. After you pick up the Epsom Salt and test kits and test your water contact me (SeattleRoy ) on this thread with your results and I will provide you with guidance on how to dose the Epsom Salt. -Roy

"C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is remobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, stems are brittle and have a tendency to curve upward. Stems are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely."

 

To be honest with you, I would listen to SeattleRoy, he has helped me in the past and what a huge difference it made in my planted tank's.

 

Hi Nomofish

For test kits pick up a pH test kit and a combination KH/GH test kit. The API test kits will work fine for both. While shopping stop at your local drug store and pick up a bag of Epsom Salt (about $2 or less). Get the cheapest stuff on the shelf with not scents, perfumes, or additives. Why? I strongly suspect the issue with your tank is insufficient available magnesium. The 'cupping' leaves and fungus attacking the stems are common symptoms of this deficiency. This can be caused by not enough magnesium in the water supply or if there is too much calcium or potassium in the water. After you pick up the Epsom Salt and test kits and test your water contact me (SeattleRoy ) on this thread with your results and I will provide you with guidance on how to dose the Epsom Salt. -Roy

"C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is remobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, stems are brittle and have a tendency to curve upward. Stems are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely."

Thank you so much sir! Exactly the type of information that I am looking for! I will see what I can find as far as testing kits! Hopefully my local pet value has some left as all fish stuff is 30% for the going out of business sale! I will reply to you on this thread with the results!

Thanks,
Nomofish

 

Your in good hands! Roy and Ray will figure it out. I’m with the lighting too. Not just ferts. The light that comes with the kit is worthless. I always have problems growing westeria from the roots. But if floated it grows like crazy. That’s why I say you also need good lighting.

 

Thank you so much sir! Exactly the type of information that I am looking for! I will see what I can find as far as testing kits! Hopefully my local pet value has some left as all fish stuff is 30% for the going out of business sale! I will reply to you on this thread with the results!

Thanks,
Nomofish

Hi Nomofish

For test kits pick up a pH test kit and a combination KH/GH test kit. The API test kits will work fine for both. While shopping stop at your local drug store and pick up a bag of Epsom Salt (about $2 or less). Get the cheapest stuff on the shelf with not scents, perfumes, or additives. Why? I strongly suspect the issue with your tank is insufficient available magnesium. The 'cupping' leaves and fungus attacking the stems are common symptoms of this deficiency. This can be caused by not enough magnesium in the water supply or if there is too much calcium or potassium in the water. After you pick up the Epsom Salt and test kits and test your water contact me (SeattleRoy ) on this thread with your results and I will provide you with guidance on how to dose the Epsom Salt. -Roy

"C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is remobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, stems are brittle and have a tendency to curve upward. Stems are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely."

SeattleRoy, I could not find any kits at the stores near me but I did find 5 in 1 strips which may not be as accurate I've heard but here are the numbers I got from it.

Nitrate= around 80 (too high)
Nitrite= 0
pH=around 8.0
KH=around 80
GH=around 120-180 range
Hope this helps!
Thanks

 

SeattleRoy, I could not find any kits at the stores near me but I did find 5 in 1 strips which may not be as accurate I've heard but here are the numbers I got from it.

Nitrate= around 80 (too high)
Nitrite= 0
pH=around 8.0
KH=around 80
GH=around 120-180 range
Hope this helps!
Thanks

Hi @Nemofish,

You are correct, test strips are not as accurate as liquid test kits but something is better than nothing. Your dKH = 4.5 and your dGH =9.0 dGH. Your water is moderately hard, likely more calcium than magnesium in the water and the high pH will make it difficult for some forms of iron to be available to your plants. The Thrive C is a good choice, it uses DTPA Chelated Iron as the iron in the mix which is better absorbed with a pH higher than 7.0. Did you also pick up the Epsom Salt?
-Roy[/ispoiler]

 

Hi @Nemofish,

You are correct, test strips are not as accurate as liquid test kits but something is better than nothing. Your dKH = 4.5 and your dGH =9.0 dGH. Your water is moderately hard, likely more calcium than magnesium in the water and the high pH will make it difficult for some forms of iron to be available to your plants. The Thrive C is a good choice, it uses DTPA Chelated Iron as the iron in the mix which is better absorbed with a pH higher than 7.0. Did you also pick up the Epsom Salt?
-Roy[/ispoiler]

Thank you, I will see about ordering some Thrive C, what is the best place to get it? And I have not picked up the Epsom salt yet, I wanted to share the results to make sure I needed it first! I will grab some tomorrow while im out.
Thank you for the help!

 

Hi @Nemofish,

You can get Thrive C directly from Nilocg.com, Amazon.com, or a number of other locations. Very few retail stores offer it because it is not handled by distributors. It was developed by a hobbyist like ourselves.

 

Your nitrate level is pretty high. High enough to be troublesome to some fish. I suggest using your test strips to check your tap water to make sure it does not contain nitrates. Some tap water does, especially if you live in an agricultural area where farm runoff is likely. Please publish the full results on your tap water when available.

You need to figure out why your nitrates are so high. Is you aquarium overstocked? Do you feed your fish too frequently or too much at each feeding?

You need to get your nitrates down by changing water more frequently. What is your current water change schedule?

Since you pH is already high, do not add crushed coral or cuttlebone as it will only make matters worse.

Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate so it will elevate magnesium levels without significantly affecting pH.

 

Thank you both for all of your help! It has been a busy day! I did do about 40-50 percent water change today, I did start getting lazy about it and that I'm sure is much of the main problem, a big part in my slacking I will say is how well everything was doin and that I've read that plants take up alot of the toxins and thus you may be able to get away with less water changes,I also believe the seachem flourish could be raising the nitrate? I have also learned from research on mostly this "FISHLORE" site, not sure if you're familiar with it, that it is very important to do water changes and that our normal tap water contains many minerals that are important to add regularly. Which is what I'm gathering from this situation is that Epsom salt is basically pure magnesium? And if I add that it will raise the levels of magnesium for the plant to feed on and not really change the p.h.? Anyways again I apologize for not picking up the Epsom salt yet but, if I had, is there a general rule of thumb type dosing here? I will also check my tap water and return to this post with the results!

Thanks for the replies and help guys!
This is a great community for aquarists of all kinds and "THE BEST PLACE TO GAIN KNOWLEDGE " I thank everyone that has helped and will continue to help! And I hope this thread helps others as well!

Nomofish

 

Yes, water changes are necessary both to add needed minerals and to remove nitrates and other contaminants we do not test for on a routine basis.

Although plants and animals utilize calcium, there must be a higher concentration of magnesium than calcium for the calcium to function properly. I know that sounds weird, but that is how it works. Epsom salt will help correct any magnesium deficiency.

Seachem Flourish Comprehensive does not contain nitrogen, so you cannot blame it for high nitrate levels. You need a better water change schedule. Keep doing large water changes until your nitrate gets down to 20 ppm or below. The you only need to change as much water as necessary to keep it at that level. If it starts to go up, do more water changes.

Often tanks will be deficient in potassium. This is often evidenced by the appearance of holes in the leaves of plants. If you see that, you can add potassium in the form of potassium chloride, potassium sulfate, potassium nitrate or potassium phosphate, but the later two sources will also add nitrates and phosphates which might not be needed or wanted. Seachem Flourish Potassium is derived from Potassium Sulfate.

If you add Seachem Flourish Nitrogen, it contains Potassium Nitrate, so you are adding both potassium and nitrate.

 

Your nitrate level is pretty high. High enough to be troublesome to some fish. I suggest using your test strips to check your tap water to make sure it does not contain nitrates. Some tap water does, especially if you live in an agricultural area where farm runoff is likely. Please publish the full results on your tap water when available.

You need to figure out why your nitrates are so high. Is you aquarium overstocked? Do you feed your fish too frequently or too much at each feeding?

You need to get your nitrates down by changing water more frequently. What is your current water change schedule?

Since you pH is already high, do not add crushed coral or cuttlebone as it will only make matters worse.

Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate so it will elevate magnesium levels without significantly affecting pH.

Hi again realized some of your questions went unanswered and I apologize,

Yes, water changes are necessary both to add needed minerals and to remove nitrates and other contaminants we do not test for on a routine basis.

Although plants and animals utilize calcium, there must be a higher concentration of magnesium than calcium for the calcium to function properly. I know that sounds weird, but that is how it works. Epsom salt will help correct any magnesium deficiency.

Seachem Flourish Comprehensive does not contain nitrogen, so you cannot blame it for high nitrate levels. You need a better water change schedule. Keep doing large water changes until your nitrate gets down to 20 ppm or below. The you only need to change as much water as necessary to keep it at that level. If it starts to go up, do more water changes.

Often tanks will be deficient in potassium. This is often evidenced by the appearance of holes in the leaves of plants. If you see that, you can add potassium in the form of potassium chloride, potassium sulfate, potassium nitrate or potassium phosphate, but the later two sources will also add nitrates and phosphates which might not be needed or wanted. Seachem Flourish Potassium is derived from Potassium Sulfate.

If you add Seachem Flourish Nitrogen, it contains Potassium Nitrate, so you are adding both potassium and nitrate.

Hello again! And thank you again for all the help and very useful information!
I did just gett done testing my tap water with the same 5in1api strip as used for the tank with the curling leaves. Some do also have a hole or 2 here and there but the majority of the plant doesn't contain holes.
The results from the my tap were.
Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
Ph - 7.5 to 8
Kh - 120
Gh - 180
Pretty similar to the tank other than the nitrate being at zero (tank was 80) and the ph maybe a shade darker and the kh going from what appeared around 80 in tank to 120 from tap.
Again this is just 5in1 strip test and some shades are very close and hard to distinguish which number it most closely matches to.
I do also probably feed a little heavy at times and do feed reedfish live worms. I will need to be more careful sticking to my weekly schedule which I've estimated to be about 12.5 percent removed and replaced each weekend with seachem prime and then a dose of flourish comprehensive along with a light vacuum of the fish waste on the bottom. I am waiting on a new nicrew sky full spectrum light that I'm hoping will improve my plant life and am ready to order some thrive c as suggested by a few people! Hopefully this will all work out for me, and back to the epsom salt, I will get some today, I totally forgot yesterday at the store and was already in a mile long line when it hit me, there was no turning back at that point, so I will grab some here in a bit. Does it look like I need to add some? The kh does seem a bit lower.
And again I'm sorry if I've skipped over any important questions, just make sure to ask again if there is something I left out!

Thanks again!

 

Hi again realized some of your questions went unanswered and I apologize,

Hello again! And thank you again for all the help and very useful information!
I did just gett done testing my tap water with the same 5in1api strip as used for the tank with the curling leaves. Some do also have a hole or 2 here and there but the majority of the plant doesn't contain holes.
The results from the my tap were.
Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
Ph - 7.5 to 8
Kh - 120
Gh - 180
Pretty similar to the tank other than the nitrate being at zero (tank was 80) and the ph maybe a shade darker and the kh going from what appeared around 80 in tank to 120 from tap.
Again this is just 5in1 strip test and some shades are very close and hard to distinguish which number it most closely matches to.
I do also probably feed a little heavy at times and do feed reedfish live worms. I will need to be more careful sticking to my weekly schedule which I've estimated to be about 12.5 percent removed and replaced each weekend with seachem prime and then a dose of flourish comprehensive along with a light vacuum of the fish waste on the bottom. I am waiting on a new nicrew sky full spectrum light that I'm hoping will improve my plant life and am ready to order some thrive c as suggested by a few people! Hopefully this will all work out for me, and back to the epsom salt, I will get some today, I totally forgot yesterday at the store and was already in a mile long line when it hit me, there was no turning back at that point, so I will grab some here in a bit. Does it look like I need to add some? The kh does seem a bit lower.
And again I'm sorry if I've skipped over any important questions, just make sure to ask again if there is something I left out!

Thanks again!

Thanks for the update..

I am not surprised to see the KH higher in your tap water than in your tank. Fish metabolism produces acids that will lower the pH and KH of the tank. However, you are fine at 120 ppm KH.

Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate. It will add magnesium to your tank without affecting either the pH or KH.

Although your KH is fine as it is, if you start to see the pH and KH start to drop, then you can add small amounts (1/4 teaspoon at a time) of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to raise KH. You do not need to do this now.

Be very careful feeding live foods to your fish. Feed only what they will consume in five minutes or less. You do not want any left over.

 

Thanks for the update..

I am not surprised to see the KH higher in your tap water than in your tank. Fish metabolism produces acids that will lower the pH and KH of the tank. However, you are fine at 120 ppm KH.

Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate. It will add magnesium to your tank without affecting either the pH or KH.

Although your KH is fine as it is, if you start to see the pH and KH start to drop, then you can add small amounts (1/4 teaspoon at a time) of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to raise KH. You do not need to do this now.

Be very careful feeding live foods to your fish. Feed only what they will consume in five minutes or less. You do not want any left over.

Ok thank you! I did however get the epsom salt today.


So should I use it or not?
I still have no idea how to dose the tank if so.

Thanks

 

When you do water changes, I would suggest adding 1/4 teaspoon of Epsom salt per gallon of replacement water. Every time you do a water change, you will be increasing the magnesium concentration slightly. You could dose the tank directly, but not knowing the current magnesium concentration, I am hesitant to recommend that. Observe your plants as you do water changes to see if the magnesium is helping. You might need more, you might need less, but by adding the supplement to your water changes, you will see what is happening.

 

When you do water changes, I would suggest adding 1/4 teaspoon of Epsom salt per gallon of replacement water. Every time you do a water change, you will be increasing the magnesium concentration slightly. You could dose the tank directly, but not knowing the current magnesium concentration, I am hesitant to recommend that. Observe your plants as you do water changes to see if the magnesium is helping. You might need more, you might need less, but by adding the supplement to your water changes, you will see what is happening.

Thank you! I also successfully ordered thrive c today after all the recommendations and I just now read after ordering it that once I start using it I will have to up my partial weekly water change to a large weekly water change, as in 50%, seems sorta defeating the purpose to add stuff weekly just to turn around and replace 50percent of the water, just to turn around again and redose it. Wouldn't that be removing half of the nutrients I just added each week just to re add them?
And when I get and start using the thrive, should I still use the epsom salt with my water changes?
Sorry for so many questions, I'm just trying to get the best understanding I can with this.
Thanks

 

Thank you! I also successfully ordered thrive c today after all the recommendations and I just now read after ordering it that once I start using it I will have to up my partial weekly water change to a large weekly water change, as in 50%, seems sorta defeating the purpose to add stuff weekly just to turn around and replace 50percent of the water, just to turn around again and redose it. Wouldn't that be removing half of the nutrients I just added each week just to re add them?
And when I get and start using the thrive, should I still use the epsom salt with my water changes?
Sorry for so many questions, I'm just trying to get the best understanding I can with this.
Thanks

Hi Nomofish,

As mentioned earlier in the thread, weekly 50% water changes are not for the plants....it is for the fish. The dissolved organics (fish pee, fish poo, food) all increase the nitrate level as well as providing a breeding ground for unhealthy bacteria and disease. Also fish grow faster and larger with regular water changes.

RayClem is correct, adding Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate / MgSO4*7H2O) should not effect your pH or your dKH. It will however increase your dGH.

I believe RayClem may have suggested an incorrect dosing level however; 1/4 teaspoon per gallon will add 33.21 ppm of Mg to the water and increase the hardness by 7.67 dGH......both are very, very excessive. Possibly he meant 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons?

Ideally a calcium to magnesium (Ca:Mg) ratio of somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1 is optimum for most plant species. Per Mulder's research and charts Calcium and Magnesium are antagonist; in other words an excess of one impedes the uptake of the other. There is a reason that Seachem Equilibrium has a Ca:Mg ratio of 3.3:1, it is well suited for most plant species. Target levels are about 20 ppm of calcium and 5 ppm of magnesium.

Calcium is one of the most common minerals on earth, magnesium not so much, so it is not uncommon for local water supplies to much higher levels of calcium and very little magnesium.

Here is what I suggest:

1) Do an initial dose of 1/2 teaspoon (approx 2 grams) per 10 gallons of tank volume. This will add about 5 ppm of Mg to your tank and increase the hardness by 1.1 dGH.

2) Thereafter, when you do your water changes, add 1/2 teaspoon of Epsom Salt per 10 gallons of new water added. In other words if you remove 10 gallons of water then add 1/2 teaspoon of Epsom Salt.

Now the hard part........waiting. Watch the new leaves as they emerge for the next two weeks. They may be greener, larger, more flat, and you may see an increase in the growth rate of the plants. Do not watch the existing leaves, they may not change and may actually continue to decline in health. As the new leaves that have emerged after you started dosing the extra magnesium mature you should not see the "cupped" leaf margins. Magnesium is necessary for photosynthesis which creates the chlorophyll that gives plants energy to grow and makes plants green.

Mulder,s Chart (note the antagonist relationship between Ca and Mg)

 

Hi Nomofish,

As mentioned earlier in the thread, weekly 50% water changes are not for the plants....it is for the fish. The dissolved organics (fish pee, fish poo, food) all increase the nitrate level as well as providing a breeding ground for unhealthy bacteria and disease. Also fish grow faster and larger with regular water changes.

RayClem is correct, adding Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate / MgSO4*7H2O) should not effect your pH or your dKH. It will however increase your dGH.

I believe RayClem may have suggested an incorrect dosing level however; 1/4 teaspoon per gallon will add 33.21 ppm of Mg to the water and increase the hardness by 7.67 dGH......both are very, very excessive. Possibly he meant 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons?

Ideally a calcium to magnesium (Ca:Mg) ratio of somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1 is optimum for most plant species. Per Mulder's research and charts Calcium and Magnesium are antagonist; in other words an excess of one impedes the uptake of the other. There is a reason that Seachem Equilibrium has a Ca:Mg ratio of 3.3:1, it is well suited for most plant species. Target levels are about 20 ppm of calcium and 5 ppm of magnesium.

Calcium is one of the most common minerals on earth, magnesium not so much, so it is not uncommon for local water supplies to much higher levels of calcium and very little magnesium.

Here is what I suggest:

1) Do an initial dose of 1/2 teaspoon (approx 2 grams) per 10 gallons of tank volume. This will add about 5 ppm of Mg to your tank and increase the hardness by 1.1 dGH.

2) Thereafter, when you do your water changes, add 1/2 teaspoon of Epsom Salt per 10 gallons of new water added. In other words if you remove 10 gallons of water then add 1/2 teaspoon of Epsom Salt.

Now the hard part........waiting. Watch the new leaves as they emerge for the next two weeks. They may be greener, larger, more flat, and you may see an increase in the growth rate of the plants. Do not watch the existing leaves, they may not change and may actually continue to decline in health. As the new leaves that have emerged after you started dosing the extra magnesium mature you should not see the "cupped" leaf margins. Magnesium is necessary for photosynthesis which creates the chlorophyll that gives plants energy to grow and makes plants green.

Mulder,s Chart (note the antagonist relationship between Ca and Mg)
View attachment 747259

Thanks for the correction on the Epsom Salt addition rate. I use RO water as my source and adding 1/4 tsp per gallon of minerals works out OK, but with tap water as a base, it would be too much. I appreciate your catching my mistake.

Thanks also for the Mulder Chart. I had not seen that before. I was aware of the relationship between Magnesium and Calcium, but I did not realize that they react with so many other elements.

 

Quick update, have been dosing the epsom salt as directed in the above and started with thrive S, as I do also have a shrimp tank I choose to order the shrimp formulated version which seems to have no copper being the only difference. I also received and have been using the Nicrew Sky full spectrum lighting! I do believe that I had the intensity too high for the first couple of days (8hrs a day) and have noticed what appears to be some green hair algae on leaves near the surface directly under the light.

 

Quick update, have been dosing the epsom salt as directed in the above and started with thrive S, as I do also have a shrimp tank I choose to order the shrimp formulated version which seems to have no copper being the only difference. I also received and have been using the Nicrew Sky full spectrum lighting! I do believe that I had the intensity too high for the first couple of days (8hrs a day) and have noticed what appears to be some green hair algae on leaves near the surface directly under the light.
View attachment 748868

It is always difficult getting just the right balance of lighting and fertilizers to get the plants to grow without the algae growing. Good luck finding that balance.

 

Back with an update on this thread after a month since the last one, I have continued dosing nilocg s and have toned down my light intensity and have added a timer which is set to 8hrs a day, I also did a major trimming and got rid of all the oldest stems to let the new take over, I have also added some epsom salt as suggested on 2 occasions during water changes. Didn't want to over do it. Finally they are snapping back and the new growth is looking good, of course the old curling leaves are still there and an eye sore but the new leaves look nice, actually better looking than ever! As for now I think I have found a decent balance between light and ferts and making sure not to let it get overly grown and out of control again. Thanks for the help to those whom have helped !