Bubble Wall And Excel

12Cin12

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HI everyone!
I think this is an aquascaping question:
I am using Excel to aid in plant growth and to help control BBA and diatoms in a new 75 gal (about 1 month old- cycled with old media). I have swords, ammania, ludwigia, anubias, java fern , Java Moss, cabomba, and some hornwort and anacharis.
(Sorry about the spelling!)
I really like bubble walls but I don’t want to loose excel’s effectiveness. I do NOT inject CO2. Currently, I run the bubble wall when the lights are off, but I’ve heard that I can run it during the day because Excel won’t gas-off.
Opinions? Here’s a pic just for fun!
 

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12Cin12

12Cin12

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Nick72 said:
Excel is not CO2. There is no chance of it off- gassing as it's not a gas.
Well, that makes sense, I guess. I’d assumed that it had dissolved CO2 just as water has dissolved oxygen.
 

ShamFish97

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Nick72 said:
Excel is not CO2. There is no chance of it off- gassing as it's not a gas.
Glad I saw this. I use a bubble wall as well, and was concerned it's affecting plant growth. Thanks!
 
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12Cin12

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ShamFish97 said:
Glad I saw this. I use a bubble wall as well, and was concerned it's affecting plant growth. Thanks!
Actually, I have the same question still! My understanding is that Whatever CO2 (even if it isn’t from Excel) is in the water will be gassed off by a bubble wall. Plants need that CO2, so I suppose I will continue to run my bubble wall at night when they aren’t absorbing CO 2
 

Wraithen

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12Cin12 said:
Actually, I have the same question still! My understanding is that Whatever CO2 (even if it isn’t from Excel) is in the water will be gassed off by a bubble wall. Plants need that CO2, so I suppose I will continue to run my bubble wall at night when they aren’t absorbing CO 2
Your understanding is flawed. The bubbles promote gaseous exchange at the surface. Almost none of the gasses dissolve while the bubbles are rising. The gas exchange affects all gasses that can bind to the water molecules. More exchange means more o2 and co2. With the co2 though, it won't be enough to matter.
 

WTFish?

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My bubbler runs all day and night and I use excel a few times per week. Plants grow like mad.
I just realized you were the OP, lol. I pm’d you..on another topic
 

-Mak-

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12Cin12 said:
Actually, I have the same question still! My understanding is that Whatever CO2 (even if it isn’t from Excel) is in the water will be gassed off by a bubble wall. Plants need that CO2, so I suppose I will continue to run my bubble wall at night when they aren’t absorbing CO 2
The CO2 in the water is already at natural equilibrium, the bubbler will promote gaseous exchange but it won't add more CO2 or oxygen than is possible from your already existing equilibrium. Increased surface agitation can't just "choose" to add more oxygen and remove CO2. Hope that makes sense!
 
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12Cin12

12Cin12

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WTFish? said:
My bubbler runs all day and night and I use excel a few times per week. Plants grow like mad.
I just realized you were the OP, lol. I pm’d you..on another topic
I think I started all this because I saw that you use excel Lol!
I’ve read in aquascaping books not to use bubbles- but there’s nothing like experience to prove book learn’ wrong!

-Mak- said:
The CO2 in the water is already at natural equilibrium, the bubbler will promote gaseous exchange but it won't add more CO2 or oxygen than is possible from your already existing equilibrium. Increased surface agitation can't just "choose" to add more oxygen and remove CO2. Hope that makes sense!
Hmmm.... thank you. I guess I am confused. A fairly obvious question would be: what happens during “gas exchange”?
Just a bit embarrassed that I’m confused by this!
 

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12Cin12 said:
Hmmm.... thank you. I guess I am confused. A fairly obvious question would be: what happens during “gas exchange”?
Just a bit embarrassed that I’m confused by this!
Basically, it allows gasses that are over saturated in the water to leave, and gasses that are low in the water to enter. It's more about charges on molecules but that part gets complicated.
 

Silister Trench

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12Cin12 said:
Hmmm.... thank you. I guess I am confused. A fairly obvious question would be: what happens during “gas exchange”?
Just a bit embarrassed that I’m confused by this!
Nah! Don't be embarrassed - this all became very confusing very quickly.

Short story: concerning your initial post about Excel and your bubble wall: Excel, and the like, are also known as liquid carbon additives. How they exactly benefit the planted tank is a subject for debate, but none contain dissolved gaseous co2, so no amount of surface agitation will effect Excel because if it isn't a gas then it cannot be gassed off.

A longer story: gas exchange relative to carbon dioxide/oxygen levels in the planted tank is a process of diffusion in which dissolved carbon dioxide enters or leaves water to reach equilibrium with available levels in the atmospheres based on pressure, temperture, pH. This is a very loose explanation, but for simplicity sake, if you dissolve carbon dioxide into your aquarium water via Co2 injection - often, high tech tank systems - surface agitation will cause these heightened levels to permeate and then vacate the water, returning to the atmosphere in an attempt forever equalize with the surrounding levels in the atmosphere. Too much Co2 in the water and the excess returns to the atmosphere, to little and it diffused back into the water to maintain equilibrium.

Fish respirate co2, which is one of the few ways Co2 levels naturally increase in non-co2-injected planted tanks, and if the levels are higher than this state of equilibrium, you will lose the excess Co2.
 

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Wraithen said:
Your understanding is flawed. The bubbles promote gaseous exchange at the surface. Almost none of the gasses dissolve while the bubbles are rising. The gas exchange affects all gasses that can bind to the water molecules. More exchange means more o2 and co2. With the co2 though, it won't be enough to matter.
That's not entirely correct to me.
Gasexchange means there will be less CO2 in the water due to oxygenating.
But indeed it is the surface where this takes place.

Excel being a non-gas but a different carbon-source (gluth) won't be exchanged at the surface.

So a bubblewall will have effect on CO2-level but not on the carbon-level from Excel.
 

Wraithen

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DoubleDutch said:
That's not entirely correct to me.
Gasexchange means there will be less CO2 in the water due to oxygenating.
But indeed it is the surface where this takes place.

Excel being a non-gas but a different carbon-source (gluth) won't be exchanged at the surface.

So a bubblewall will have effect on CO2-level but not on the carbon-level from Excel.
I was under the impression that co2 and o2 weren't mutually exclusive, and that co2 was just as likely to hop on the water molecule as o2 was.
 

-Mak-

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DoubleDutch said:
That's not entirely correct to me.
Gasexchange means there will be less CO2 in the water due to oxygenating.
But indeed it is the surface where this takes place.

Excel being a non-gas but a different carbon-source (gluth) won't be exchanged at the surface.

So a bubblewall will have effect on CO2-level but not on the carbon-level from Excel.
Wraithen said:
I was under the impression that co2 and o2 weren't mutually exclusive, and that co2 was just as likely to hop on the water molecule as o2 was.
CO2's equilibrium is somewhere around 3-4 ppm.
So if you have fish or decomposition bringing it up to 5 ppm, the surface agitation will cause the CO2 to gas off and go back down to 4 ppm.
If you have plants using up the CO2 and taking it down to 2 ppm, the surface agitation will bring CO2 back up.
Oxygen being dissolved is unrelated, you can have high oxygen with high CO2, and this is actually what's recommended when injecting CO2. I'm pretty sure oxygen follows the same pattern as CO2, except equilibrium is around 8 ppm?
 

Silister Trench

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-Mak- said:
CO2's equilibrium is somewhere around 3-4 ppm.
So if you have fish or decomposition creating bringing it up to 5 ppm, the surface agitation will cause the CO2 to gas off and go back down to 4 ppm.
If you have plants using up the CO2 and taking it down to 2 ppm, the surface agitation will bring CO2 back up.
Oxygen being dissolved is unrelated, you can have high oxygen with high CO2, and this is actually what's recommended when injecting CO2. I'm pretty sure oxygen follows the same pattern as CO2, except equilibrium is around 8 ppm?
Nailed it!^^
 

Wraithen

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Silister Trench said:
Nailed it!^^
I wonder what would happen if we locked you two in a room with tanks and all the scape materials and tools for 8 hours a day for a week. I suspect magic.
 

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Wraithen said:
I wonder what would happen if we locked you two in a room with tanks and all the scape materials and tools for 8 hours a day for a week. I suspect magic.
What a compliment, thank you! I could only dream haha
 

Silister Trench

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You know what? I'd be 100% cool with this! A vast supply of materials and plenty of time, not to mention it would be interesting to see someone like -Mak- at work. I'd get to watch a different take on the process. I've never actually been able to see someone else aquascape in the real world, only having my own self-taught methods and habbits (good & bad) to work on. Like -Mak- said - a dream.

We should probably have a curtain installed in this room, however. I know, without question, that at least one of us can only aquascape in the buff... aaaand that last part was me joking! Or was it? No, it definitely was...
 

Wraithen

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Silister Trench said:
You know what? I'd be 100% cool with this! A vast supply of materials and plenty of time, not to mention it would be interesting to see someone like -Mak- at work. I'd get to watch a different take on the process. I've never actually been able to see someone else aquascape in the real world, only having my own self-taught methods and habbits (good & bad) to work on. Like -Mak- said - a dream.

We should probably have a curtain installed in this room, however. I know, without question, that at least one of us can only aquascape in the buff... aaaand that last part was me joking! Or was it? No, it definitely was...
Or was it?

"You gotta feel every inch of the scape! Clothes just get in the way! Just try it Mak! You'll never go back!"
 

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Asdfkljal au naturel
scaping is all about emulating nature
 

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