KodiakTimber
- #1
Hello all,
I'd like to get into a discussion surrounding a couple of theories I have. I'll put a tl;dr down at the bottom, but for my own sake I'm going to catalog my thought process here, so I may eventually return to it when I get my hobby program up and running.
First, I have a deep love for Bettas. The different species, the history, the fins, the colors. My first fish was a Betta named Duck, a beautiful boy I managed to keep alive for a little over 6 years (I know that's longer than they're supposed to live, he was a special guy) until my college roommates killed him (accidentally). I got out of fish altogether for a while, but now I have a son who is interested in fish, and in helping him with his tank, I have gotten back into the hobby myself as well
Second, I am incredibly picky. There are a lot of Bettas out there, but I have very specific aesthetic desires in a Betta fish, and to date I have yet to find exactly what I'm looking for. This is the most selfish reason for the breeding program I want to try, but it is not the only reason, nor the most important. I just want to be honest with myself that it is, in fact, a factor
Third, genetics are a great passion of mine, and while Betta color genetics is something I'm actively trying to teach myself, genetics in general, genotypes, phenotypes, heredity, displayed traits, dominance levels, and all the fun things that go with genetics are incredibly interesting to me.
Fourth, I am a farmer, and fish isn't the only place genetics have bled over into other passions of mine. I am working on establishing new bloodlines of cows and sheep, with the hope of eventually establishing new breeds (the perfect cow/sheep, according to me) of both. While I have no interest in founding a new line of Bettas, I do think that lessons learned from my mammal breeding could carry well into Betta breeding (linebreeding vs inbreeding, crossing lines, hybrid vigor without polluting genetic strain, etc.)
The first thing I've learned in breeding any animal is you have to know exactly what you're working towards, so you know how to pick culls, and breed quality animals, so here is my list of desired traits in no particular order
-females with more impressive fins, like the males, without increasing male fin size (I don't want to breed males that have fins so large they can't swim). This would allow people to keep several beautiful, long finned fish in a single tank (imagine how pretty a sorority of females with male finnage would look)
-A line of Bettas that have thick, muscular, torpedo-shaped bodies with nice straight backs (which, hopefully, would increase longevity, general health, and fry survival)
-Bettas that are maybe a bit larger. This won't be a primary selection trait, but when choosing between two similar Bettas, I would likely lean towards the larger one to add to the breeding program
-bettas that are beautiful to me, with the color, patterns, and iridescence I find visually appealing (equally important to me as the form/fins. I wouldn't want to breed the perfect shape just to lose the color, so these need to be selected for together)
-lines that have similar genetics, but from different strains, so that they can be crossed (to avoid imbred problems) without compromising quality
-Lines that breed true (at least 25-50% of fry that survives to adulthood should type match the parents)
In order to establish these similar but unrelated lines, I am going to use a conservation breeding program established by an organization dedicated to breeding Barbados blackbelly sheep. Essentially, once I have my types established, and have (in this example) 3 (Male A, B, C) unrelated males that look the way I want them, and 15 (five female A's, 5 B's, and 5 C's) unrelated females that look the way I want them, they would be bred on a rotation and certain fry from each breeding would be held back to maintain the original ABC lines, and some would be held back to maintain the cross line (Ab, AC, and BC). If you are careful with your records, you can breed for generations and generations without experiencing inbred slump or genetic bottlenecking
Now, on to my questions:
1. What do breeders do with Betta fish once they no longer have use for them in a breeding program? In cows or sheep, you sell them on (or eat them). Obviously I don't want to do that with Bettas, but the question remains that for professional Betta breeders, they must end up with perfectly lovely fish that no longer have a place in the breeding program. I mean heck, you aren't supposed to breed Bettas after a certain age anyway, so what do you do? Fry and young Bettas can go to homes, but is there a market for adult, past their prime Bettas?
2. To the people who have set breeding programs, not just "I had two Bettas so I bred them," but aren't quite at the "I have my own store, or contracts with stores because I have an entire warehouse dedicated to fish breeding" point yet, how do you find the happy medium? Let's say I have three breeding males, three males waiting on deck, fifteen breeding females, fifteen waiting on deck, and an innumerable amount of fry, how do you handle the infrastructure all those fish require? I love fish tanks, I love watching fish, but I have to admit those fish keeping hobbiests that have entire rooms dedicated to hundreds of tanks....it isn't attractive anymore it just looks like a mess. Has anyone found a way to keep all these tanks in a way that looks purposeful and attractive? Imagine money was no object and you could set it up exactly the way you wanted, how would you do it? I imagine maybe a couple extra large tanks with dividers that are hidden by plants or something
3. I have no problem culling fry that have deformities or fail to thrive, but what do you do with fish if you can't find homes for the pet quality ones? Obviously I know there are lots of options, ranging from "keep them yourself" all the way to "cull then too" but I want to hear what you do
4. How do *you* sell/give away your fish? (I'm not looking to make money, this is for the genetics and the quest for the perfect (to me) Betta) but most stores, at least around here, already have contracts for Betta sourcing. So if *you* do several spawns a years, and have to move ~100 Bettas or more a year, how do you do it? FL forums? Online sales? Friends?
5. Where do you source your first, line establishing, breeders? Obviously big box stores are out. I've found a couple sites for importing from Thailand, but all those fish, while their colors and fins are impressive, have poor body confirmation. So where do you find your breeders? Shows? Conventions? Betta forums I haven't been able to find? Ebay? Auction sites?
6. How realistic do you think my goals are?
Tldr; I want to start a breeding program, with specific fin and conformation goals, using conservation breeding practices to avoid inbreeding while maintaining trueness in a line. Any suggestions?
Thank you for reading this far, and I appreciate and look forward to a good discussion on this!
I know I sound like an academic snob in the way I wrote this post, but I am also just super excited to get started. I know it's going to take a lot of time and money but this is something I'm really excited about and am hoping for lots of good pointers!
~Kodiak
A not more for myself than anyone else:
I love colors with striated or other interesting patterns, some example are the orchid patterning, star tail, peacock, alien, mustard gas, dragon scale, stripes, and any pattern you see in wild-type Bettas and non-splendens Bettas.
As far as the colors themselves, I like metallics, especially copper and/or gold, greens, turquoise, and black/samurai. Can't stand red/orange (absolutely no disrespect towards those who do, I just have never liked the way Bettas look with red or red-based color). Avoid galaxy/Nemo/koi
I'd like to get into a discussion surrounding a couple of theories I have. I'll put a tl;dr down at the bottom, but for my own sake I'm going to catalog my thought process here, so I may eventually return to it when I get my hobby program up and running.
First, I have a deep love for Bettas. The different species, the history, the fins, the colors. My first fish was a Betta named Duck, a beautiful boy I managed to keep alive for a little over 6 years (I know that's longer than they're supposed to live, he was a special guy) until my college roommates killed him (accidentally). I got out of fish altogether for a while, but now I have a son who is interested in fish, and in helping him with his tank, I have gotten back into the hobby myself as well
Second, I am incredibly picky. There are a lot of Bettas out there, but I have very specific aesthetic desires in a Betta fish, and to date I have yet to find exactly what I'm looking for. This is the most selfish reason for the breeding program I want to try, but it is not the only reason, nor the most important. I just want to be honest with myself that it is, in fact, a factor
Third, genetics are a great passion of mine, and while Betta color genetics is something I'm actively trying to teach myself, genetics in general, genotypes, phenotypes, heredity, displayed traits, dominance levels, and all the fun things that go with genetics are incredibly interesting to me.
Fourth, I am a farmer, and fish isn't the only place genetics have bled over into other passions of mine. I am working on establishing new bloodlines of cows and sheep, with the hope of eventually establishing new breeds (the perfect cow/sheep, according to me) of both. While I have no interest in founding a new line of Bettas, I do think that lessons learned from my mammal breeding could carry well into Betta breeding (linebreeding vs inbreeding, crossing lines, hybrid vigor without polluting genetic strain, etc.)
The first thing I've learned in breeding any animal is you have to know exactly what you're working towards, so you know how to pick culls, and breed quality animals, so here is my list of desired traits in no particular order
-females with more impressive fins, like the males, without increasing male fin size (I don't want to breed males that have fins so large they can't swim). This would allow people to keep several beautiful, long finned fish in a single tank (imagine how pretty a sorority of females with male finnage would look)
-A line of Bettas that have thick, muscular, torpedo-shaped bodies with nice straight backs (which, hopefully, would increase longevity, general health, and fry survival)
-Bettas that are maybe a bit larger. This won't be a primary selection trait, but when choosing between two similar Bettas, I would likely lean towards the larger one to add to the breeding program
-bettas that are beautiful to me, with the color, patterns, and iridescence I find visually appealing (equally important to me as the form/fins. I wouldn't want to breed the perfect shape just to lose the color, so these need to be selected for together)
-lines that have similar genetics, but from different strains, so that they can be crossed (to avoid imbred problems) without compromising quality
-Lines that breed true (at least 25-50% of fry that survives to adulthood should type match the parents)
In order to establish these similar but unrelated lines, I am going to use a conservation breeding program established by an organization dedicated to breeding Barbados blackbelly sheep. Essentially, once I have my types established, and have (in this example) 3 (Male A, B, C) unrelated males that look the way I want them, and 15 (five female A's, 5 B's, and 5 C's) unrelated females that look the way I want them, they would be bred on a rotation and certain fry from each breeding would be held back to maintain the original ABC lines, and some would be held back to maintain the cross line (Ab, AC, and BC). If you are careful with your records, you can breed for generations and generations without experiencing inbred slump or genetic bottlenecking
Now, on to my questions:
1. What do breeders do with Betta fish once they no longer have use for them in a breeding program? In cows or sheep, you sell them on (or eat them). Obviously I don't want to do that with Bettas, but the question remains that for professional Betta breeders, they must end up with perfectly lovely fish that no longer have a place in the breeding program. I mean heck, you aren't supposed to breed Bettas after a certain age anyway, so what do you do? Fry and young Bettas can go to homes, but is there a market for adult, past their prime Bettas?
2. To the people who have set breeding programs, not just "I had two Bettas so I bred them," but aren't quite at the "I have my own store, or contracts with stores because I have an entire warehouse dedicated to fish breeding" point yet, how do you find the happy medium? Let's say I have three breeding males, three males waiting on deck, fifteen breeding females, fifteen waiting on deck, and an innumerable amount of fry, how do you handle the infrastructure all those fish require? I love fish tanks, I love watching fish, but I have to admit those fish keeping hobbiests that have entire rooms dedicated to hundreds of tanks....it isn't attractive anymore it just looks like a mess. Has anyone found a way to keep all these tanks in a way that looks purposeful and attractive? Imagine money was no object and you could set it up exactly the way you wanted, how would you do it? I imagine maybe a couple extra large tanks with dividers that are hidden by plants or something
3. I have no problem culling fry that have deformities or fail to thrive, but what do you do with fish if you can't find homes for the pet quality ones? Obviously I know there are lots of options, ranging from "keep them yourself" all the way to "cull then too" but I want to hear what you do
4. How do *you* sell/give away your fish? (I'm not looking to make money, this is for the genetics and the quest for the perfect (to me) Betta) but most stores, at least around here, already have contracts for Betta sourcing. So if *you* do several spawns a years, and have to move ~100 Bettas or more a year, how do you do it? FL forums? Online sales? Friends?
5. Where do you source your first, line establishing, breeders? Obviously big box stores are out. I've found a couple sites for importing from Thailand, but all those fish, while their colors and fins are impressive, have poor body confirmation. So where do you find your breeders? Shows? Conventions? Betta forums I haven't been able to find? Ebay? Auction sites?
6. How realistic do you think my goals are?
Tldr; I want to start a breeding program, with specific fin and conformation goals, using conservation breeding practices to avoid inbreeding while maintaining trueness in a line. Any suggestions?
Thank you for reading this far, and I appreciate and look forward to a good discussion on this!
I know I sound like an academic snob in the way I wrote this post, but I am also just super excited to get started. I know it's going to take a lot of time and money but this is something I'm really excited about and am hoping for lots of good pointers!
~Kodiak
A not more for myself than anyone else:
I love colors with striated or other interesting patterns, some example are the orchid patterning, star tail, peacock, alien, mustard gas, dragon scale, stripes, and any pattern you see in wild-type Bettas and non-splendens Bettas.
As far as the colors themselves, I like metallics, especially copper and/or gold, greens, turquoise, and black/samurai. Can't stand red/orange (absolutely no disrespect towards those who do, I just have never liked the way Bettas look with red or red-based color). Avoid galaxy/Nemo/koi